Regina Construction III

[SkydivePilot]

Originally Posted by BrutallyDishonest2

That doesn't really seem necessary. I mean the streetscape is an abomination thanks to SaskTel but it seems in fine condition.

Hahaha, yeah, it sure is! I guess the province earmarked $45 million for the refacing that SaskTel building. It was originally to be within the $60-70 million range.

[SkydivePilot]

Originally Posted by BrutallyDishonest2

Residential downtown is fine. But starting with a huge component of low income families with no amenities seems foolhardy at best. Plus the huge amount of office space that will find no tenants. And the planned grocery store is the size of a corner store. This is a bad idea.

. . . and yes, Lorne and 11th has been begging for a highrise for decades; however, I am in 1000% agreement with Brutal here. This project is a very baaaad idea.

[BrutallyDishonest2]

Originally Posted by skphc08

You're right, no development in downtown is better than some development.

You got a better proposal and the money to back it up?

It is actually possible that a bad development is worse than no development.

And Namerind isn't going to get funding until they eliminate the asinine 100,000 sq.ft of office space and retail.

Even purely residential seems suspect to me.

[skphc08]

Originally Posted by BrutallyDishonest2

It is actually possible that a bad development is worse than no development.

Of course its possible. This isn't that though.

Its not change-the-city-permanently-for-the-worse, like, for example, the decision to allow Home Depot to build where it did 15+ years ago. This development seems like a net positive for the local area, even if there are a few hurdles to clear first.

[BrutallyDishonest2]

Originally Posted by skphc08

Of course its possible. This isn't that though.

Its not change-the-city-permanently-for-the-worse, like, for example, the decision to allow Home Depot to build where it did 15+ years ago. This development seems like a net positive for the local area, even if there are a few hurdles to clear first.

I think there's a sincere possibility that the current state of downtown makes this project a poor option for the residents that Namerind hopes to attract.

[thefourthtower]

Originally Posted by skphc08

You're right, no development in downtown is better than some development.

You got a better proposal and the money to back it up?

You are 100 percent correct where is his money and proposal it looks great , who is one to say if a developer wants to build office space , the mind set is totally negative

[J-Walker]

Originally Posted by BrutallyDishonest2

It is actually possible that a bad development is worse than no development.

And Namerind isn't going to get funding until they eliminate the asinine 100,000 sq.ft of office space and retail.

Even purely residential seems suspect to me.

Does anyone on this forum believe the Namerind project will ever materialize? There are so many red-flags that would indicate the projects viability is questionable. First, just looking at Namerind's website they seem to have little to no experience at all in even small to mid-scale developments, let alone large-scale, multi-tenant, mixed-use towers. Second, if the projects funding is based on requiring million in donations (as mentioned in a previous posts) - good luck on ever raising enough money to move forward without a windfall donation from somewhere. Most residential tower development requires large amounts of speculation funding from investors who expect relativity high rates of return - what investor would ever expect a good return on social housing. Third, it doesn't seem financially prudent to construct brand new social housing on some of the most expensive land in the City if the goal is to keep costs low. Also, now that Namerind has been allowed to convert the lots to surface parking, I think they will very quickly realize that the value of this property for them is in the parking revenues that they can use to fund other projects and liabilities. Parking lots in the downtown are a cash cow for their owners, and without the financial incentive of Namerind losing money on the land they are just sitting on, they have no incentive now to ever develop there.

[Stormer]

Originally Posted by J-Walker

Does anyone on this forum believe the Namerind project will ever materialize? There are so many red-flags that would indicate the projects viability is questionable. First, just looking at Namerind's website they seem to have little to no experience at all in even small to mid-scale developments, let alone large-scale, multi-tenant, mixed-use towers. Second, if the projects funding is based on requiring million in donations (as mentioned in a previous posts) - good luck on ever raising enough money to move forward without a windfall donation from somewhere. Most residential tower development requires large amounts of speculation funding from investors who expect relativity high rates of return - what investor would ever expect a good return on social housing. Third, it doesn't seem financially prudent to construct brand new social housing on some of the most expensive land in the City if the goal is to keep costs low. Also, now that Namerind has been allowed to convert the lots to surface parking, I think they will very quickly realize that the value of this property for them is in the parking revenues that they can use to fund other projects and liabilities. Parking lots in the downtown are a cash cow for their owners, and without the financial incentive of Namerind losing money on the land they are just sitting on, they have no incentive now to ever develop there.

I am not sure where the donation notion is coming from. This is a classic social housing project. The money comes from grants from 3 levels of government. There will little to no equity from Namerind, unless it comes from government. The City donated land and will give a tax abatement. The project will qualify for a low interest CMHC mortgage for almost the entire capital cost, under existing programs. The rents (which will also be subsidized in many cases) will pay the debt service.

I agree this is a large project for a small organization and that the office space and probably the grocery make little sense. These component s are not eligible for the same subsidies.

[J-Walker]

Originally Posted by Stormer

I am not sure where the donation notion is coming from. This is a classic social housing project. The money comes from grants from 3 levels of government. There will little to no equity from Namerind, unless it comes from government. The City donated land and will give a tax abatement. The project will qualify for a low interest CMHC mortgage for almost the entire capital cost, under existing programs. The rents (which will also be subsidized in many cases) will pay the debt service.

I agree this is a large project for a small organization and that the office space and probably the grocery make little sense. These component s are not eligible for the same subsidies.

I'm not familiar with the social housing grants in SK or Namerinds arrangements, but I'm surprised Namerind is not responsible for any equity investment. You would expect the proponent's portion of the project to be somewhat substantial (at least 15 - 25% that is not funded by other grants) in order to have some skin in the game. If this is the case, the previously mentioned build estimate of 86 million would still require substantial funding by Namerind. This might not be the case though, I'm not at all familiar with the funding arrangement for this project.

In any case, simply because a large portion of the build is coming from "free-money" I don't think it makes the build any more sensible. The same dollar amounts could be provided to the proponent for several 3-4 story wood-framed projects in multiple locations around the City (in which some location choice would likely accommodate people much better in terms of proximity to family, friends, employment, schools, etc.) as opposed to a high-rise steel and concrete build, which is much more costly per sqft.

That said, I was just reading some previous posts on his thread and had a thought. If Namerind does want social housing units in the downtown, instead of building new, they should just purchase the top two floors of the recent build on corner of Albert and 11th that are sitting vacant.
I mean, if they are potentially going to be converted to residential units anyways. They could turn them into social housing housing and start off with a smaller, more-reasonable goal than a newly constructed twin tower.

[Stormer]

Originally Posted by J-Walker

I'm not familiar with the social housing grants in SK or Namerinds arrangements, but I'm surprised Namerind is not responsible for any equity investment. You would expect the proponent's portion of the project to be somewhat substantial (at least 15 - 25% that is not funded by other grants) in order to have some skin in the game. If this is the case, the previously mentioned build estimate of 86 million would still require substantial funding by Namerind. This might not be the case though, I'm not at all familiar with the funding arrangement for this project.

In any case, simply because a large portion of the build is coming from "free-money" I don't think it makes the build any more sensible. The same dollar amounts could be provided to the proponent for several 3-4 story wood-framed projects in multiple locations around the City (in which some location choice would likely accommodate people much better in terms of proximity to family, friends, employment, schools, etc.) as opposed to a high-rise steel and concrete build, which is much more costly per sqft.

That said, I was just reading some previous posts on his thread and had a thought. If Namerind does want social housing units in the downtown, instead of building new, they should just purchase the top two floors of the recent build on corner of Albert and 11th that are sitting vacant.
I mean, if they are potentially going to be converted to residential units anyways. They could turn them into social housing housing and start off with a smaller, more-reasonable goal than a newly constructed twin tower.

CMHC will finance 95% and other grants and free land will make up the rest. I am not sure why you would expect anything different. Who would invest their own money into something that makes no profit?

There are private, for-profit social housing programs, but that is under a different program. Namerind is a non-profit.

[UrbanClimate]

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[J-Walker]

Originally Posted by Stormer

CMHC will finance 95% and other grants and free land will make up the rest. I am not sure why you would expect anything different. Who would invest their own money into something that makes no profit?

There are private, for-profit social housing programs, but that is under a different program. Namerind is a non-profit.

That makes more sense then. I incorrectly assumed with the inclusion of the office space, retail, and proposed 500 parking spaces in the development that the project would have to find some sort of private investment component to fund that portion.

[Stormer]

Originally Posted by J-Walker

That makes more sense then. I incorrectly assumed with the inclusion of the office space, retail, and proposed 500 parking spaces in the development that the project would have to find some sort of private investment component to fund that portion.

No I think you are right about that. I just don't think that component will be nearly as significant as the original plan.

[CoR East]

Originally Posted by Stormer

No I think you are right about that. I just don't think that component will be nearly as significant as the original plan.

The last presentation I saw on the development, roughly 18 months ago, the project had dropped all class A office. The podium was a 30,000 sq ft grocery on the main floor wrapping around the elevator core (80 per cent the size of the 13 ave Safeway). The remainder of the podium was 5 levels of parking with the towers and daycare sitting on top. As far as a location goes, for affordable housing this is the best location in the city for transit/access to employment.

[BrutallyDishonest2]

Originally Posted by CoR East

As far as a location goes, for affordable housing this is the best location in the city for transit/access to employment.

Transit, sure. Employment, eh not so much.

[SkydivePilot]

Originally Posted by J-Walker

Does anyone on this forum believe the Namerind project will ever materialize? There are so many red-flags that would indicate the projects viability is questionable. First, just looking at Namerind's website they seem to have little to no experience at all in even small to mid-scale developments, let alone large-scale, multi-tenant, mixed-use towers. Second, if the projects funding is based on requiring million in donations (as mentioned in a previous posts) - good luck on ever raising enough money to move forward without a windfall donation from somewhere. Most residential tower development requires large amounts of speculation funding from investors who expect relativity high rates of return - what investor would ever expect a good return on social housing. Third, it doesn't seem financially prudent to construct brand new social housing on some of the most expensive land in the City if the goal is to keep costs low. Also, now that Namerind has been allowed to convert the lots to surface parking, I think they will very quickly realize that the value of this property for them is in the parking revenues that they can use to fund other projects and liabilities. Parking lots in the downtown are a cash cow for their owners, and without the financial incentive of Namerind losing money on the land they are just sitting on, they have no incentive now to ever develop there.

$86 million in donations? Hahaha, good luck with that! Besides that, it's a baaad idea on so many levels. (Pun here, lol!)

[blacktrojan3921]

I actually think Namrind is a great idea for that parcel of land, but that's just my opinion.

[Drofmab]

Originally Posted by SkydivePilot

$86 million in donations? Hahaha, good luck with that! Besides that, it's a baaad idea on so many levels. (Pun here, lol!)

As Stormer pointed out, I've never seen anyone suggest that the full project cost would come from donations. Not even a hint of that (other than in this group).

Obviously, the project is predicated on CMHC financing & SaskHousing involvement. If those don't materialize (and there's a very real possibility they won't, given the rental stock & economy overall), I can't imagine Namerind putting their organization's viability at risk to deliver a project of this scale - they'd have to liquidate all of their existing housing stock, and their businesses... and even then, they wouldn't be well off the mark.

No chance they'd jeopardize their organization (and, by extension, their clients/tenants/employees) for this project. But - by the same token - if the levels of gov't stepped in with financing (or in a dream world, donations), I have no doubt Namerind would jump at it.

I agree with others that transit, employment & groceries (and other services) are necessary. At the moment, even Regina Transit's downtown "hub" likely doesn't work for most people (buses are too infrequent, trips take too long, not many walkable services, etc)... so I'm not convinced that this is a great location for affordable housing. I still believe Namerind is one of the best positioned players in the city for an affordable housing project... but this location (and size) sets them up for failure.

[SkydivePilot]

Originally Posted by Drofmab

As Stormer pointed out, I've never seen anyone suggest that the full project cost would come from donations. Not even a hint of that (other than in this group).

Obviously, the project is predicated on CMHC financing & SaskHousing involvement. If those don't materialize (and there's a very real possibility they won't, given the rental stock & economy overall), I can't imagine Namerind putting their organization's viability at risk to deliver a project of this scale - they'd have to liquidate all of their existing housing stock, and their businesses... and even then, they wouldn't be well off the mark.

No chance they'd jeopardize their organization (and, by extension, their clients/tenants/employees) for this project. But - by the same token - if the levels of gov't stepped in with financing (or in a dream world, donations), I have no doubt Namerind would jump at it.

I agree with others that transit, employment & groceries (and other services) are necessary. At the moment, even Regina Transit's downtown "hub" likely doesn't work for most people (buses are too infrequent, trips take too long, not many walkable services, etc)... so I'm not convinced that this is a great location for affordable housing. I still believe Namerind is one of the best positioned players in the city for an affordable housing project... but this location (and size) sets them up for failure.

It's donation-based. Yes, it's doomed to fail.

[StealthGirl]

City has announced that the Traveller's Building will be demolished over the next 3 weeks.