Winnipeg Construction IX

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by Spocket

Wow...the UofM went full SJW with that plan.

I don't have a problem with giving it an aboriginal theme, I just don't see what difference it makes. "Truth and Reconciliation Center"? Are you kidding me? Fuck off.

Dude being a full sjw has been an obsession for the Universityfor a while now. The plan is great tho. Ignore the political correctness and its final built form would be a good dense neighborhood. I'm a fan.

[1ajs]

we need more lighting in our city like this
(bike jam light install i did last night)

[JM5]

Originally Posted by Spocket

Wow...the UofM went full SJW with that plan.

I don't have a problem with giving it an aboriginal theme, I just don't see what difference it makes. "Truth and Reconciliation Center"? Are you kidding me? Fuck off.

A topic most don't want to touch. I too agree with the inclusion and embracing of aboriginal motifs and traditions because really if aboriginal people can't have a "homeland" for their culture here, where can they? On reserves? I would rather see shameful and unsustainable reserves become a thing of the past, but I'm also no fan of assimilation and want to see cultural diversity flourish.

Regarding the "Truth and Reconciliation Centre", I see what you're saying. I agree that it's too divisive of an issue because at this point our society has vilified residential schools to nearly the point of being seen as concentration camps for native kids. The intentions that created them may have been misguided and ultimately damaging but they were far from evil. Plus the abuse was done by individuals and was not instituted policy.

I don't believe all non-native Canadians should be made to feel responsible or continuously reminded of the wrongful policies instituted by governments of the past and abuse perpetrated by individuals other than themselves. The effect is to seemingly lump non-natives together as "perpetrators" which is patently false. This is sure to breed division and resentment.

[biguc]

When is the road to hell not paved in good intentions?

The Centre for Truth and Reconciliation has been open for a while now. It's a pretty good draw in academia. Canada is in the midst of a seismic shift in memory culture right now thanks to the truth and reconciliation commission, and a lot of academics are paying careful attention to what happens here.

[JM5]

Originally Posted by biguc

When is the road to hell not paved in good intentions?

When it's paved in good intentions for some and death to others, as in actual totalitarian policies common in many countries throughout the last century. Juxtapose that with our own government's good intentions for the "others" only to later learn that this doesn't work the way they thought it would, and it's in fact damaging. The Canadian government has made it's fair share of bad decisions but we have learned from them. We'll see if today's good intentions bear sweeter fruit than those of yesteryear.

Back on topic, I am truly glad to see this design, lots of great ideas incorporated. Just a couple of further things on my wish list:
- Don't leave a green belt on the North side, tie the development into the existing neighborhood in spite of possible NIMBYs.
- Firm plan for BRT & AT bridge to St. V., not just the possibility of it happening somehow sometime in some form
- Better plan for the point lands - no need to develop the ag fields, but AT paths around the perimeter, maybe dorms, etc. all tying into the BRT+AT path to the main campus.
- generally more dorms, not sure why we have so few compared to other universities

[biguc]

Those are all good ideas. I'm a little put off by the cluster of strip malls they apparently want to build on Pembina as phase 1.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by JM5

When it's paved in good intentions for some and death to others, as in actual totalitarian policies common in many countries throughout the last century. Juxtapose that with our own government's good intentions for the "others" only to later learn that this doesn't work the way they thought it would, and it's in fact damaging. The Canadian government has made it's fair share of bad decisions but we have learned from them. We'll see if today's good intentions bear sweeter fruit than those of yesteryear.

Back on topic, I am truly glad to see this design, lots of great ideas incorporated. Just a couple of further things on my wish list:
- Don't leave a green belt on the North side, tie the development into the existing neighborhood in spite of possible NIMBYs.
- Firm plan for BRT & AT bridge to St. V., not just the possibility of it happening somehow sometime in some form
- Better plan for the point lands - no need to develop the ag fields, but AT paths around the perimeter, maybe dorms, etc. all tying into the BRT+AT path to the main campus.
- generally more dorms, not sure why we have so few compared to other universities

I don't think people in that neighbourhood of St. Vital want to be the U of M's parking lot, or Investors Group Field's, so that issue is going to have to be resolved first.

I used to walk 45 minutes to U of M from St. Vital during my time at U of M, just after Bishop Grandin opened (before that, you had to take the "Unibus" that went there via Jubilee, or else drive down to the Perimeter). That bridge in winter was mighty cold and they used to plough the road ice onto the sidewalk to make it even more fun.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I don't think people in that neighbourhood of St. Vital want to be the U of M's parking lot, or Investors Group Field's, so that issue is going to have to be resolved first.

2 hour weekday parking restrictions on residential streets would fix that in a hurry.

[JM5]

Originally Posted by biguc

Those are all good ideas. I'm a little put off by the cluster of strip malls they apparently want to build on Pembina as phase 1.

I think these might be meant to generate a profit to start with to help offset some of the costs of the project as it gradually unfolds. You can't say the stripmalls are not inkeeping with the Pembina neighborhood

[kirkawall]

Originally Posted by JM5

A topic most don't want to touch. I too agree with the inclusion and embracing of aboriginal motifs and traditions because really if aboriginal people can't have a "homeland" for their culture here, where can they? On reserves? I would rather see shameful and unsustainable reserves become a thing of the past, but I'm also no fan of assimilation and want to see cultural diversity flourish.

Regarding the "Truth and Reconciliation Centre", I see what you're saying. I agree that it's too divisive of an issue because at this point our society has vilified residential schools to nearly the point of being seen as concentration camps for native kids. The intentions that created them may have been misguided and ultimately damaging but they were far from evil. Plus the abuse was done by individuals and was not instituted policy.

I don't believe all non-native Canadians should be made to feel responsible or continuously reminded of the wrongful policies instituted by governments of the past and abuse perpetrated by individuals other than themselves. The effect is to seemingly lump non-natives together as "perpetrators" which is patently false. This is sure to breed division and resentment.

Some of the most foundational abuses were absolutely instituted policy and the devolution of key areas of responsibility to church-run IRSs was an attempt to manage the system at arms-length in order to save money and distance the feds from legal and moral responsibility -- plenty of historical evidence, including statements and on-the-record discussion (including legislative) to support both claims.

Few IRS Survivors are interested in framing non-native Canadians as "perpetrators," either historically or now. The discussion is overwhelmingly about reconciliation through education, making sure that the legacy of the IRS system is properly understood and contextualized, among Canadians of all kinds. One way to do that is through architecture, which can educate without being didactic, and this is what the U of M seems to want to do, despite its failures to support IRS education in some other key ways.

if they can pull it off without screwing it up through cost-cutting, incompetence or admin meddling, more power to them. Best possible scenario is that it works for a wide range of constituencies, including indigenous.

[optimusREIM]

Originally Posted by kirkawall

, which can educate without being didactic

Do you mind elaboratIng? This appears to be an oxymoron

[JM5]

Originally Posted by Andy6

I used to walk 45 minutes to U of M from St. Vital during my time at U of M, just after Bishop Grandin opened (before that, you had to take the "Unibus" that went there via Jubilee, or else drive down to the Perimeter). That bridge in winter was mighty cold and they used to plough the road ice onto the sidewalk to make it even more fun.

Andy, it sounds like you want future generations to continue to share the pain of your youth

[kirkawall]

Originally Posted by optimusREIM

Do you mind elaboratIng? This appears to be an oxymoron

Not an oxymoron at all.

Pedagogy = concerned with identifying areas of inquiry, aspirations, goals, etc.

Didactics = concerned with ways of achieving solutions to areas of inquiry, aspirations, goals, etc.

Idea being that we're still very much at the initial stage with respect to broad-based understanding of the IRS system and legacy. How this happens in terms of campus architecture I'm not remotely qualified to say (neither an architect or designer) but am interested to see.

[JM5]

Originally Posted by kirkawall

Some of the most foundational abuses were absolutely instituted policy and the devolution of key areas of responsibility to church-run IRSs was an attempt to manage the system at arms-length in order to save money and distance the feds from legal and moral responsibility -- plenty of historical evidence, including statements and on-the-record discussion (including legislative) to support both claims.

Few IRS Survivors are interested in framing non-native Canadians as "perpetrators," either historically or now. The discussion is overwhelmingly about reconciliation through education, making sure that the legacy of the IRS system is properly understood and contextualized, among Canadians of all kinds. One way to do that is through architecture, which can educate without being didactic, and this is what the U of M seems to want to do, despite its failures to support IRS education in some other key ways.

if they can pull it off without screwing it up through cost-cutting, incompetence or admin meddling, more power to them. Best possible scenario is that it works for a wide range of constituencies, including indigenous.

Point taken, the fundamental abuse of having children forcibly taken from their parents was obviously institutionalized.

A module on residential schools, including watching a film telling the story of one victim was part of my social studies class in the early nineties. The lesson is learned, people are aware of the truth of what happened and the point has been driven home. At some stage, harping on the issue further will have the opposite effect to what is intended because people with little interest in the subject or government policy or human rights in general will feel their time could be better spent learning more "useful" subjects. There's also the very real and unavoidable fact that less knowledgeable individuals on both sides of this issue WILL generalise, causing further division.

Also, I know it's commonly accepted to refer to all who attended residential schools as "survivors" and I guess the separation from family warrants this somewhat, but what about those who were lucky enough to attend a school in their own community? How about the majority who's did not suffer physical or sexual abuse? Survivor used to be a powerful word but is rather overused these days imo.

[Cyro]

I encourage discussion on this complicated issue but could we please slowly move back into construction and development related posting..

This thread may be more in tune with the topic at hand if posters would like to continue it
I've added several posts from above already..

First Nations Issues

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by JM5

Andy, it sounds like you want future generations to continue to share the pain of your youth

Yes, that is what everyone ends up wanting.

[Spocket]

Sorry, maybe you guys misunderstood me. My fault. What I'm saying isn't that I have any problem with embracing Aboriginal culture and heritage, I'm just wondering what the hell it has to with university infrastructure. To me that's really just a gambit to shoehorn a political agenda into it and make it an issue when it really wasn't.

[BigG]

Originally Posted by WpG_GuY

Phase two of Upper Fort Gary?

I was trying to figure out my bearings with that picture. But using the buildings in the background, it's on Fort and Assiniboine. In reality, Fort is one way North.

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.8865259,-...aAoBlO6ObAVXfTw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

[Biff]

Cohlmeyer is the Architect for the Upper Fort Gary Interpretive Centre.

[Wolf13]

While the plan seems great, that was hard to read...

I understand that everyone needs a home, especially aboriginals. I also think it's fantastic that we're very immigrant friendly.

I am slightly annoyed that the public discourse has allowed itself to forget anyone who isn't aboriginal or an immediate immigrant. Hell, I'm a first generation Canadian with a vastly different culture than most, but it's annoying to be "just another one of those white men." Well, then there's the fact that youre only an immigrant if you're not white.

Nope, not having it. I want the best for everyone, but it seems that despite the good intentions held by some, a lot of it these days is pandering to whomever society said you can pander to without being accused of pandering.