Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 4

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by Orlando

1800 parking spaces?! A front yard and a back yard?! Why? This is downtown, and 2 blocks away from the nearest light rail station.

You are right, it's two blocks from the nearest existing light rail station, but there is space reserved for the future 600 South light rail station literally right in front of this development. I wonder if some arrangement couldn't be made for the developer to pay for the construction of this station (it would be extremely cheap as far as light rail stations go - the space has been reserved and all the utility hookups are already in place) in exchange for having fewer parking spaces. Depending on how many parking spaces are eliminated from the garage, it could be a significant savings for the developer.

[Marvland]

Good to see the Patrinely project moving forward. They are also sniffing around other larger infill parcels. Their presence is a major step forward for downtown. They do build to suit for tech and energy companies in Houston. They are the type of firm you would typically associate with Lehi, but their commentary has been that Lehi lacks the services that their firms demand like cultural amenities and easy access to the airport. Hopefully this signals a sea change in tech presence downtown. This is a huge multi-tenant marquis project and it needs real parking. Don't know what all the weeping and wailing is all about. If we want these types of firms downtown, they need parking. I doubt it will all be surface stalls.

[Hatman]

My annoyance is not that there is parking, but that there is so much of it when TRAX is so close by.
Perhaps the economic argument could be used. The 9th South TRAX station was also an in-fill station in the same way that the 6th south station will be. It cost $1.2 million in 2005. Now, let's say that the parking structure costs about $50 per square foot. The average parking space is 9' wide and 20' long, making 180 square feet. At $50 per sq foot, each parking space costs $9000. Therefore, at $1.2 million, a TRAX station is the equivalent of 133 parking spots.

(Note: This calculation is back-of-the envelope and does not include such things as inflation from 2005 dollars to 2017, nor does it include parking aisles, which also cost $50 per square foot.)

And this development is including 1,800 parking spots. 133 is less than 1/10 of the total parking.

It annoys me when developers are willing to subsidize drivers but do nothing for transit - and then the drivers in return believe that they are paying their own way and that the transit riders are the moochers who are being subsidized. I have no idea how big this development is; perhaps 1,800 stalls is the bare minimum they can get away with. I don't mean to disparage this new development in any way except for point out ways it could be better.

TL;DR I'm bothered by the fact that a huge parking structure (a massive incentive for driving) is being built where there should be a draw for transit riders, irrespective of what the development actually is.

[delts145]

Hatman, I understand that you would be annoyed by so much parking, even though it's covered and discreetly out of sight . However, no one is addressing the issue of the large adj. Hotel properties and their need for also having use of this covered parking. Not only must this project provide for a certain amount of office parking, but also for the overflow needed by the Holding properties, which from what I'm hearing is in urgent need of having on hand more upgraded covered parking. With The America's properties we're not only dealing with the typical office commuter, but your talking thousands of guests with rentals, who during various times of the year put quite a crush on parking. What happens when The Grand is booked out with visitors, and at the same time is filling it's enormous ballrooms with an elegant sitdown dinner or even more so, wall to wall patrons attending some sort of major speech? The America properties(particularly The Grand) are the largest elegant ballrooms in town by a big margin. They are usually the first choice when it comes to an important event, particularly when the event is meant to be very upscale or to impress national and international tastes.

[Hatman]

You know what my answer will be! Autonomous cars! No more parking spaces! Revolution!

Seriously though, I'm not annoyed that there are parking spaces. In this point in technological development we still need to include them. 1,800 seems like a big number to me, but I really have no idea of what the actual needs are.
To clarify, what I am annoyed about is that this development should be built like a TOD. Right now it seems like it is totally ignoring the fact that it right across from where a TRAX stop will go.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Right now it seems like it is totally ignoring the fact that it right across from where a TRAX stop will go.

I think this is something that could be brought to the developers attention. They might think they are 2 blocks away and most will drive rather than take transit.

If they knew that there would be a station as well as having the option to assist with building one, they may consider shrinking the parking space count.

One thing I would like is that on top of the parking garage that they put a private park. Trees, grass and the like. It could be an amenity for the workers as well as possible leasing space for special events.

I do hope that we hear more about the project in the coming months as I do think it will be a bigger impact to the area and the City as I can see it being a spring board to bring more companies to the downtown environment.

I just hope that this does help spur 151 along in showing increased demand for space downtown.

[delts145]

Perhaps it would be prematurely optimistic, but they could be also planning for future needs. There's a lot of potential with this developer given their track record, as Marvland pointed out.

[Makid]

Originally Posted by delts145

Perhaps it would be prematurely optimistic, but they could be also planning for future needs. There's a lot of potential with this developer given their track record, as Marvland pointed out.

That is true. If they are planning another project on the same block in the future, the parking could be used for the next project and so forth.

There is a lot of potential in the area.

[SFTransplant]

Originally Posted by delts145

Hatman, I understand that you would be annoyed by so much parking, even though it's covered and discreetly out of sight . However, no one is addressing the issue of the large adj. Hotel properties and their need for also having use of this covered parking. Not only must this project provide for a certain amount of office parking, but also for the overflow needed by the Holding properties, which from what I'm hearing is in urgent need of having on hand more upgraded covered parking. With The America's properties we're not only dealing with the typical office commuter, but your talking thousands of guests with rentals, who during various times of the year put quite a crush on parking. What happens when The Grand is booked out with visitors, and at the same time is filling it's enormous ballrooms with an elegant sitdown dinner or even more so, wall to wall patrons attending some sort of major speech? The America properties(particularly The Grand) are the largest elegant ballrooms in town by a big margin. They are usually the first choice when it comes to an important event, particularly when the event is meant to be very upscale or to impress national and international tastes.

I stay at the Grand 3 times a year for work and have never seen a problem with parking there- even last year when I was there for Sundance... That part of the city desperately needs something more engaging at the street level than a huge parking lot. Its a wasteland. Developments like this don't create urbanity, they encourage people to drive to the lot, go to work, and leave. Why take light rail with all that shining parking?

[delts145]

Originally Posted by SFTransplant

I stay at the Grand 3 times a year for work and have never seen a problem with parking there- even last year when I was there for Sundance... That part of the city desperately needs something more engaging at the street level than a huge parking lot. Its a wasteland. Developments like this don't create urbanity, they encourage people to drive to the lot, go to work, and leave. Why take light rail with all that shining parking?

No one is talking about an additional surface parking lot. This is a development which actually gets rid of one of those horrid surface parking lots. In addition to replacing a current large surface parking lot, it adds an attractive mid-rise, hundreds of office workers. This, and additional amenities, which can be used by neighboring hotel patrons. Amenities, such as a dog park, a public market, and additional restaurants. Again, the discussion is whether the office tower development, needs that many parking spaces in it's covered parking terrace. The indoor subterranean parking at the Grand never fills up?? It has, and it does often when there are multiple major events at the same time, which is becoming increasingly regular. Again, the question wasn't based on whether there is enough surface parking space, but whether there's enough indoor out of sight, out of the weather parking. We all agree there are too many surface parking lots in this area.

Originally Posted by Viperlord

http://www.downtownrising.com/go/patrinely-building

https://aca.slcgov.com/Citizen/Cap/CapDe...91&agencyCode=SLCREF&IsToShowInspection=


PATRINELY BUILDING
600 South Main Street
Salt Lake City, UT 84111

PROJECT STATUS: Planned

CATEGORY: Office



This proposed development is led by the Patrinely Group. It would include over 1,800 parking spaces, in addition to a front yard and backyard park. Proposals also detail other things like a small dog park, space for a public market and even a restaurant.

[Ironweed]

Originally Posted by Utah_Dave

My guess for all the extra parking is our city leaders are being proactive and preparing for it to be a park and ride since all the jobs are moving to Sandy, Draper and Lehi. Or maybe the block north of little America may one day be developed. Long shot I know

Another great post!

[SLCLvr]

How many square feet is the Patrinely Development? It's hard to know if the parking is too much without knowing the size building it's supporting.

[airportvids]

You guys do know that CCC has 5,000 stalls, yet, the Trax station is always packed.
You guys bitch when tech companies move to Lehi, Sandy, Draper. Downtown finally gets one and guess what?......more bitching. It just never ends.

[Hatman]

^^^
I know, right? Nothing is ever good enough for us (me).
Let me phrase it this way:
I am 100% thrilled that a surface lot is being developed into something reasonably cool and dense. Great!
I am 8% annoyed that the project doesn't incorporate transit even better than it does already. Maybe because it is too soon for the developers to collaborate with the city or UTA, but it just seems so logical to me that developing the TRAX station and parking stalls would be cheaper than for the developer building ONLY parking stalls. Affronts to logic annoy me. And I pegged it as low as 8% because even if the station is not developed simultaneously with this new development, there will at least be more pressure on UTA/SLC to build out this station on their own. With their own money, which is slightly annoying in its own way, but whatever.
100% pleased - 8% annoyed = 92% pleased. So I'm still in a pretty good mood. But that's not interesting to post on threads like this, so I stuck with the nit-picking that anonymous internet people are notoriously good at.

[s.p.hansen]

[Orlando]

Originally Posted by airportvids

You guys do know that CCC has 5,000 stalls, yet, the Trax station is always packed.
You guys bitch when tech companies move to Lehi, Sandy, Draper. Downtown finally gets one and guess what?......more bitching. It just never ends.

A project twice the size of that in downtown Seattle would have 1/4 or less than the total provided here, and it would all be required to be underground. Just sayin' This is about land-use regulations that encourage mass-transit and vibrant urban & pedestrian friendly streets. And, CCC's parking was way overbuilt. How many of you have ever seen that parking garage even remotely full?

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by Orlando

A project twice the size of that in downtown Seattle would have 1/4 or less than the total provided here, and it would all be required to be underground. Just sayin' This is about land-use regulations that encourage mass-transit and vibrant urban & pedestrian friendly streets. And, CCC's parking was way overbuilt. How many of you have ever seen that parking garage even remotely full?

Seeing as we still don't know how many (if any) stalls are surface or underground, we don't know the actual size, square footage or formal scope of the development, the comment "Seattle would have 1/4 or less than the total provided here" is pure speculation.

[Makid]

I know that the parking at CCC is full or nearly full a few times each year.

During the Christmas shopping season, parking averages 75% full during the day and is at 95% full on weekends. It has also been close to 95% during comic con and the 2 General Conferences and the Relief Society conferences the previous week.

I did originally think it was over built but after seeing that it is maxed out a few times a year, I have changed my perspective.

Now, there are places that have been able to cut back in parking downtown. Particularly the office buildings as people are more likely to take transit to/from work but less likely to use it for shopping currently. As more housing is built along high frequency transit lines, I do think that we will see the parking at CCC become less used.

I do think that Land Use is changing within SLC but it is hard to get it to change too much due to the prevailing nature of the rest of the CSA. With 95% of the CSA using personal vehicles for their primary mode of transit, it is hard for SLC to lower the parking too much. It works for Residential and Commercial within the City as well as Education (U of U) but retail can't support itself on the local population yet downtown. This is changing but I do think we are still 20 years or so out before it is able to be sustained with nearby residents and just transit users.

[Highrise_Mike]

I think this Patrinely project would be a great addition to the south end of downtown. If we can get this project built it could change the dynamic in the area and the likelyhood of similar future projects locating in the area increases. The thing about these tech companies that I have seen in Lehi and Draper is they are pushing 5 to 6 stalls per thousand square feet of office area. They really pack their employees in those buildings like sardines.

This downtown location is more urban and could get away with a reduction in parking, especially considering the proximity of transit and the new housing going up nearby. This would definitely not be playing under the same rules as the burbs. That being said, tech companies are probably still going to ask for a healthy amount of parking. Even the office buildings adjacent to the Front Runner station in Draper has the same ratio of parking as the typical suburban auto-oriented office. Most of it is even surface parking which I find a little disappointing.

I would hope the Patrinely project would all be structured parking and I imagine they would have a difficult time fitting even a portion of the 1800 stalls as surface stalls considering the property is probably 4-5 acres in size. We could hope that if they did build 1800 stalls that employees would take advantage of Trax and not all of the stalls would be used. If not all of the stalls were used, a future building on the south portion of the block could be built and utilize a shared parking agreement. This could increase the employment density on the block. The idea of using the funds for the parking and put it toward the station would be awesome and in my experience structured parking stalls are going to be more in the $20k range per stall and even more for underground.

Definitely excited to see some office movement in downtown!

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Marvland

Seeing as we still don't know how many (if any) stalls are surface or underground, we don't know the actual size, square footage or formal scope of the development, the comment "Seattle would have 1/4 or less than the total provided here" is pure speculation.

Thank you Marvland!! Also, what of the remaining large undeveloped portion on the south side of the block? As with so many developments downtown, could it be that future build out will be sharing a portion of this parking structure?

Hatman, your posts are always among my favorites. LOL, I love the 92% pleased and 2% annoyed. I do hope that your points, especially regarding the TRAX station become reality in the near future.

Regarding whether the CCC underground parking being overbuilt? How many stalls will the Cascade account for when it goes up? Doesn't the Promontory and the other two properties on Richards and S. Temple have quite a few units yet to account for before they're full? I'm sure we're talking at least a few hundred upcoming stalls needed in the near future. Does anyone really know at this point how many underground stalls they're going to be able to get out of that mess of a configuration across the street on 1st S.? I mean, if they build it up to it's potential while also preserving Dinwoody and several other historic structures, use it for a CCH, build a new Zions tower, and go ahead with plans for a fully restored Utah Pantages with accompanying Condo tower? If there really is extra space at CCC, I'm sure it won't be long before they max it out with upcoming development plans on neighboring properties. IMO, to say that the underground parking at CCC is overbuilt is extremely short sighted.