PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[Philly-Drew]

Originally Posted by Randomguy34

Here you go:
https://www.pennmedicine.org/news/news-r...university-of-pennsylvania-health-system

Thanks!

[Knight Hospitaller]

Penn conquers Princeton (although I don't think that the healthcare system is at all affiliated with the latter school)!

[Flyers2001]

Originally Posted by Parkway

That space was in the office portion of the building. I believe they are taking over space previously leased by BNY Mellon.

That is correct, they also plan to open a store in the building as well when one of current tenants lease expires. My wife works in the Building.

[Parkway]

This topic came up over in the Liberty Property Camden thread: The Wells Fargo Center turned 20 this year. As these sorts of venues go the life span is about 30 years. What are your thoughts on a replacement venue for the good old Farg? Should it be at the sports complex? Should the Flyers and Sixers have different homes?

[wcphil]

It doesn't make much sense to me for.the flyers and sixers to have separate venues. I love deployment, but that would just be wasteful. There would be so many days where they were going unused. Already is even though they share a building.

[justremember]

Originally Posted by wcphil

It doesn't make much sense to me for.the flyers and sixers to have separate venues. I love deployment, but that would just be wasteful. There would be so many days where they were going unused. Already is even though they share a building.

That is 100% true, but there may still be motivation for them to build separate facilities. The Sixers and Flyers are no longer owned by the same parent organization. The design of hockey arenas also detracts from the quality of a basketball arena. Just about a week ago the Sixers went through the embarrassing process of having to postpone a game because I've melting underneath the court created unsafe playing conditions.

I think months ago some people on here threw out the idea of the Sixers building a new arena. We shall see...

[Larry King]

If nj pays for it, I'm sure the Sixers would do it. Maybe depends on how much power norcross/sj dem machine has in Trenton in the next admin

[skyscraper]

Originally Posted by Parkway

This topic came up over in the Liberty Property Camden thread: The Wells Fargo Center turned 20 this year. As these sorts of venues go the life span is about 30 years. What are your thoughts on a replacement venue for the good old Farg? Should it be at the sports complex? Should the Flyers and Sixers have different homes?

Are you kidding? I still think of this as the "new" arena. I even catch myself calling it the CoreStates Center once in a while. It will last longer than 30 years.
Should the two teams have separate arenas? I would say no, but it is a private development and the interested parties will run the numbers and do what works for them. If the awful Sixers decide that they want a smaller arena to accommodate their ever-dwindling crowds, maybe they could build one on the former site of the Spectrum (that should never have been torn down.) This could be used to bring the Phantoms back also and longer term, make Philadelphia an attractive choice for an Olympics.
The one incident recently where the ice melted and leaked through the basketball floor was an unfortunate incident but was a one-time goofup, not a chronic problem.

[looper121]

Originally Posted by Parkway

This topic came up over in the Liberty Property Camden thread: The Wells Fargo Center turned 20 this year. As these sorts of venues go the life span is about 30 years. What are your thoughts on a replacement venue for the good old Farg? Should it be at the sports complex? Should the Flyers and Sixers have different homes?

There is nothing wrong with the Wells Fargo center, it would be wasteful to tear this down in another ten years. They also just added Sportsnet studios not that long ago. I think this thing should be good for another 30 years in my opinion.

Put some new seats in if you want to freshen it up.

[allovertown]

The

Originally Posted by Parkway

This topic came up over in the Liberty Property Camden thread: The Wells Fargo Center turned 20 this year. As these sorts of venues go the life span is about 30 years. What are your thoughts on a replacement venue for the good old Farg? Should it be at the sports complex? Should the Flyers and Sixers have different homes?

This idea that arenas have a 30 year lifespan is outdated. The arenas built in the 50s - 80s had a 30 year life span, but a lot of that has to do with the fact that by the time the 90s rolled around they were woefully inadequate in certain aspects that had become critically important for sports teams, namely wide concourses that enables the sale of lots of food and souvenirs and plentiful club boxes. The Spectrum had neither of these amenities and thus needed to be replaced. But in the past 30 years there has not been a similar radical change in the design of Arenas. The Flyers actually just renovated their club boxes and the WFC is still world class and should remain the home of the Flyers for the foreseeable future.

That's not even mentioning the fact that the construction of arenas and stadiums has not proved to be the economic boon that many claimed and taxpayers are increasingly opposed to government subsidies to construct them. So yeah, get used to the WFC, it's not going anywhere anytime soon.

As myself and others pointed out though, the Sixers are apparently none the less interested in building an arena for the simple fact that they don't own the Wells Fargo Center, the Flyers do. The arena while built for hockey and basketball is better suited for hockey and the Sixers have ongoing disputes regarding the arena naming rights and other issues. Having their own arena would increase the value of the Sixers considerably if Harris decides to sell them and it would allow him to make more money in the meantime.

So discussing the future home of the Sixers is fun because they likely will move to build a new arena in the near future. Also, while I was against locating Phillies or Eagles downtown as I believe downtown stadiums are overrated. There are far fewer issues with a downtown basketball arena as well as more benefits. This could be an exciting development to look forward to.

Also re: skyscraper: talk about the Sixers being terrible as a factor in such a long range decision is silly. The Sixers won't be terrible forever and their crowds are not ever-dwindling, attendance is way up this year. In case you didn't know one of the most exciting prospects of the past few decades is now playing for the Sixers and another major prospect should debut in a month or so. Sixers future looks very bright. And Sixers have no interest in building an arena that the Phantoms could play in. Makes literally no sense as much of their motivation behind this is to build a dedicated basketball arena.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by Parkway

This topic came up over in the Liberty Property Camden thread: The Wells Fargo Center turned 20 this year. As these sorts of venues go the life span is about 30 years. What are your thoughts on a replacement venue for the good old Farg? Should it be at the sports complex? Should the Flyers and Sixers have different homes?

While it's true that the median lifespan of an NFL stadium (and many other professional sports venues) is about 31 years, this is more driven by economics and greed than actual need as far as modern stadiums go. Stadiums built in the 1990s have not become obsolete quickly the way stadiums built in the 1960s did and don't suffer from the same design flaws.

Personally, though, when it comes time to build a new one -- whether actually 'needed' or not -- I'd like to keep all our major sports venues where they are.

[Larry King]

Harris owns the other major arena in NJ (Newark) so he'd have all the data and operational experience to run a successful arena in south jersey as well. Also presumably had the political pull to get the deal done for the practice facility in Camden. That's why I think it can happen, granted I don't know anything about their lease terms at the wfc

[Jawnadelphia]

Correct. Beat me too it. WFC is constantly being upgraded, new video boards, scoreboards, the club boxes all renovated/updated, new arena lighting system, and upgrades to concourses. Comcast owns it, Comcast SportsNet broadcasts from WFC, CSN offices are there. Comcast owns the Flyers now with Mr. Snider's passing. The Flyers aren't going anywhere.
The Flyers fan base is more so suburb based--the quick access to WFC via highways makes it an ideal location. And the Flyers haven't had any issue selling out WFC - ever, and sold out the Spectrum virtually every game since before the Broad St. Bullies. Their yearly home attendance avg. is literally a sellout every year since like 1973... those Flyers fans love their orange and black.
Sixers--I could see Harris and company trying to explore a Camden arena or Center City. Harris has no connection to Philly, he wants to make money and flip the team (most likely). The team is improving with Embiid, Saric, and soon to play Simmons. Also, high draft picks on the way. The Sixers opened their maybe best in the NBA training/practice facility and team offices on the Camden waterfront. I'm sure the team's worth has already increased in the few years Harris has owned the team. If he were to build a brand new, basketball only arena... he could flip the Sixers for a killing. And that's what this guy does...
Secondly, the Sixers are renters at WFC..., so yeah I can definitely see Harris exploring a new arena.

[Urbanthusiat]

Not that I want to continue off-topic... I dream of the Sixers playing at the Disney Hole at 8th and Market... if the lot is big enough, which I'm not sure it is. Subway, regional rail, and PATCO access to the Sixers games would be a huge boost in attendance, I would think, as it'd be much less of a hassle to get to the game for suburban fans on both sides of the river. As mentioned, there isn't much of a tailgating culture for the Sixer's anyway. At that location we might be able to draw more tourists to the games too. Probably never gonna happen though.

The Phillies and Eagles shouldn't move from South Philly. Ever. The Sports complex is a great compromise between attracting city and suburban folks and allows for some great tailgating.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Urbanthusiat

Not that I want to continue off-topic... I dream of the Sixers playing at the Disney Hole at 8th and Market... if the lot is big enough, which I'm not sure it is. Subway, regional rail, and PATCO access to the Sixers games would be a huge boost in attendance, I would think, as it'd be much less of a hassle to get to the game for suburban fans on both sides of the river. As mentioned, there isn't much of a tailgating culture for the Sixer's anyway. At that location we might be able to draw more tourists to the games too. Probably never gonna happen though.

The Phillies and Eagles shouldn't move from South Philly. Ever. The Sports complex is a great compromise between attracting city and suburban folks and allows for some great tailgating.

Haha great minds think alike. Disney hole would be plenty large for a dedicated basketball arena and with all the transit options nearby that you mention, there really isn't a better location downtown.

I would imagine an arena that would have street facing restaurants and bars on market and there would still be plenty of room for a skyscraper on site as well. Could be quite the development and could make the convention center even more attractive for large conventions.

Sixers lease runs out in 2031 but apparently penalties for leaving early are not severe.

[Groundhog]

If the Sixers want to play in a smaller area (and granted Welss Fargo is the 4th largest in the NBA), they can do some campus tours. We have 6 D1 programs to choose from (and at least two of which play a few games at Wells Fargo every year, during which there is tailgating). The stadium complex just makes sense for all the major sports. You have all the statues throughout. It works.

I think people would view the Union differently if they were located down there as well (although I'm aware that Soccer is the 5th sport in America and that being in Chester is part of MLS's stadium placement strategy).

That complex is just where professional sports in Philly should be. I don't see how any location could be easier for people to drive or take public transit to. If you put the game in Camden, you've just added a surcharge to attendees coming from Pennsylvania when they try to go home. If you put it in Center City, you have more congestion and possible road closures. Getting something like the non-descript Verizon Center in DC would be sad. Yes, it's multipurpose, but the stadium becomes hidden and is not part of the spectacle of going to a game.

Their issues with "The Center" are mainly that their ratings have sucked, but their sponsorship rates have not reflected that reality in a few years. Once the product gets better and they can attract more eyes, assuming there hasn't been too much bad blood, Wells Fargo will give them some ad dollars and those fights will be a thing of the past.

Wells Fargo is the third most attended visited (for all events) arena in the country (after the Staple Center and MSG) so it's doing very well - or at least it was last time I saw statistics a couple years back. With that said, it 100% makes sense from Harris's perspective to try and get someone to pay for a stadium for him. He has experience in NJ, so that may even be an easier transition for him (especially since they're throwing money at everyone to build in Camden). I understand the business reasons for the relocation, but I'll be holding my breath for them to stay in South Philly.

[Jawnadelphia]

The Sixers dont want a smaller arena -- where is this coming from? The NBA is the second biggest sport in America, and Philly is a huge market. They can't sellout WFC because the team has been mediocre to horrible for 15 years. During Iverson's glory days- WFC was sold out every night and probably the most electric building in the NBA. We just need to start winning some more games. And that looks a lot for promising with Embiid. #trusttheprocess

[Parkway]

While I agree that functionally the Farg is fine, Atlanta is setting some unfortunate precedent building new stadiums to replace newish buildings.

If the Sixers really want their own arena it might be a good idea to work it into 30th Street master plan. I'm concerned that putting the arena in Camden would cement the vast amounts of parking along the waterfront. In theory I would like an arena at 8th and Martket I would rather have a Liberty Place type of complex there. It's one of the last sites that could easily accomidate a retail space large enough for a department store.

[PHL10]

Originally Posted by Groundhog

If you put the game in Camden, you've just added a surcharge to attendees coming from Pennsylvania when they try to go home.

Good point. I realize it works in NY but the Delaware River is a bit of a barrier – the bridges are bottlenecks and there is also the issue of the tolls. So I’m not sure about how wise it is to put an arena on the side of the river where only 20% of the metro population lives.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by Parkway

While I agree that functionally the Farg is fine, Atlanta is setting some unfortunate precedent building new stadiums to replace newish buildings.

If the Sixers really want their own arena it might be a good idea to work it into 30th Street master plan. I'm concerned that putting the arena in Camden would cement the vast amounts of parking along the waterfront. In theory I would like an arena at 8th and Martket I would rather have a Liberty Place type of complex there. It's one of the last sites that could easily accomidate a retail space large enough for a department store.

Yes there are certainly problems with a Camden Arena, most have pointed at transpo as the most important issue with most of the metro living on the other side of the Delaware and with Patco's limited reach, it was also make public transit at least a two seat trip for the vast majority of people in the area, not to mention, patco is not well integrated into septa transit system, although hopefully with Septa adopting a new fare system they'll be able work better with one another.

I never even considered the fact that an arena in downtown Camden, lacking great public transit, and without the space concerns to motivate garage or underground parking will likely mean expansive parking lots in the area will likely never disappear. Camden is such a mess, I tend to assume anything would be a positive for them, but the truth an arena wouldn't be great.

My other worry is that while I don't think Philadelphia or Pennsylvania has much incentive to contribute funds to build an arena, they could fall into the trap of a bidding war if some decide it's important to retain sixers in Philadelphia. Really would be against any gov't funding going to this stadium.

It will be interesting to see what happens here, but based on everything I know about the situation I'd say there's a better than 50-50 shot we hear news on a new arena in next 5 years. I agree 30th street would be another interesting location.