Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 4

[jubguy3]

I haven't posted here in so long! I took a tour of Soprano + Mooney architecture firm, IBI, The new Capitol theater, and greenbike yesterday and I thought I might let you guys know.

[Viperlord]

http://www.cityweekly.net/UrbanLiving/archives/2016/06/23/getting-higher

"Our newest building that's almost ready to open (and is 80 percent leased out already) is 111 South Main, which is 380 feet off the ground."

[Viperlord]

Originally Posted by scottharding

I believe you're right about the sign being new. I guess this is a good sign?

i never noticed this before, but theres a lobby rendering of 151 tower on the architects website.....is it newly uploaded, I swear that I checked their site about a month ago, and it wasn't there.
http://www.dixonslc.com/?section=office

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by Marvland

Riddle me this: LA just got an NFL team for the first time in 22 years. Why oh why is that? And how did Utah poll when we stole the jazz from NO? Clay Bennet stole the Sonics from your beloved Seattle (oh my!) and landed them in OKC. You see, those little magazines don't buy and place teams. They are for Google researchers to prove points. Sports franchises are "passion play" business enterprises. Nothing else. We will get a team if somebody wants one and can afford it. Read that all again and repeat it.

1- LA is the LARGEST sports market and enough teams had already gotten what they wanted from their respective locals by using LA as a threat. It had served its purpose well.

2-The ABA had just finished staving off bankruptcy by ceasing to exist. The new expansion NBA franchise in NOLA was facing bankruptcy and the NBA was paying players thousands not tens of millions. Different time. Different NBA.

3-The Sonics moved from a flooded sports market to a state of 3 million plus people without a single professional team.

Yeah there's passion but you don't get wealthy by making stupid investments. MLB in SLC is a losing investment. Part of that is our existing teams(including college), part of that is our large families, part of that is our wages. The last time I looked this up the market research that I read claimed that a city needed something like 90 billion dollars available for discretionary entertainment in order to be able to absorb just an MLB team(the team doesn't capture all of that of course but that's the kind of money in the market that they need). The wasatch front was estimated to have something around 110 billion available. Once you factor in the market needs of our current sports teams we have like a 35 billion dollars of untapped left over. Less than half of what would be considered to be a market with adequate untapped demand. If we add any major sports team our market will become over saturated.

Note: I explained that pretty poorly and am probably off by quite a bit on the numbers. I cannot remember much about the methods of the research but it was pretty convincing. If you want to look into it for yourself, have at it. I think you will eventually come to the realization that the money is just not there.

[Comrade]

Utah lucked out with the Jazz. They weren't moving to Salt Lake to be a permanent team. It's pretty well established they were only temporarily relocating to Utah until they could finalize a deal to move to Minnesota. It's why they didn't even change the name because they expected the franchise to only be here for a few years.

In those early days, the Jazz were an awful draw locally. In their first season, they averaged only 7,821 - and that dipped in their second season in SLC (to 7,508 - below the NBA average). It wasn't until 1986 that they surpassed 10,000 in average attendance and it wasn't until the 90s, and the move to the Delta Center, that they actually averaged more than the NBA average.

Without Larry Miller, the Jazz would've bolted in the 80s and Utah would likely not have any professional team (discounting RSL).

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/86563...-Utah-Jazz-from-moving-twice.html?pg=all

Salt Lake's next best bet would be the NHL. But comparing a NBA franchise relocating from Seattle to Oklahoma City is not a valid argument because the NBA is a league that can be tailored toward smaller markets. The MLB doesn't really thrive in smaller markets. Sure, there's Milwaukee, the smallest market in the MLB, but Salt Lake City, San Antonio, Milwaukee, Oklahoma City, Memphis and New Orleans are all smaller TV markets and have NBA teams. Even the NFL has more established smaller markets than the MLB.

Milwaukee is the only exception - but to be sure, Milwaukee, despite having a smaller TV market than SLC, is a much more expansive city (SLC's tv market is essentially the entire state, whereas Wisconsin TV markets are broken up into smaller areas).

Again, though, there's a reason SLC is barely mentioned as a MLB expansion candidate. It's because they're not. Does it mean someone can't up and move a team here? Of course not - but they could also move a team to Des Moines, Iowa. Doesn't make it a realistic, or viable option, either. Who's going to move a team here? Who, locally, is willing to invest the $$$ into a potential expansion franchise here?

[Hatman]

Could Utah's status as 'Nerdiest State' be a contributing factor in our unsatisfactory amount of professional sports teams? I've only been to three professional 'sports-ball'* events in my life, and I consider that to be at least 2 too many. I know that many of my acquaintances** have had a similar level of exposure and feel similarly disposed.

*I think the sports event I went to had elevated hoops, but my glasses were too fogged up for me to be sure.

** I wanted to use the word 'friends', but... well, you can probably guess.

[Comrade]

Beyond all that, with a 81 game schedule, and average ticket prices close to $50, you're looking at a very expensive overall situation for Utah families - many of which are larger than the national average.

It's not like the Jazz where there's half that amount (and half the capacity) or college football where there's like six home games or even RSL where there's even a smaller amount of home matches than Jazz games. It's hard to envision SLC having the financial market to support a team that plays 81 home games a year - especially if they're not very good. I mentioned in another thread that the average attendance was 30,517 in 2014. There are franchises that do well below that total, but those are also franchises that are either struggling to keep their team or have so much entrenched history they can absorb those types of seasons (the Braves could get away with a smaller crowd - SLC might not be able to).

Like I mentioned in another post, the Bees are drawing really poorly this season - and drew poorly last season, too, despite the fact they play in a fantastic park, there's literally NO OTHER sports competition most nights (RSL doesn't play as frequently) and prices are extremely dirt cheap (along with all the other quirks that come with minor league baseball). It's not exactly a fair comparison, since we're talking minor league baseball compared to the majors - but it's the best we have at this point.

Further, the average cost of a new stadium is well over $500 million. The Minnesota Twins are the most recent MLB franchise to build a new stadium and it cost $545 million. To put that into perspective, the Jazz are currently upgrading Vivint for 'only' $110 million.

For a new MLB ballpark, we're likely going to have to rely on tax dollars, as most stadiums are not 100% funded by the owner or private businesses. For that Target Field in Minneapolis, taxpayers were on the hook for $350 million of the $545 million it cost to build the stadium.

Are Salt Lake County residents ready to plop down over $300 million to build a MLB stadium? Hell, there was outrage over the Jazz asking for $22 million just a couple weeks ago.

I'd love a MLB team with a new MLB stadium downtown - but it ain't happening.

[ajiuO]

[StevenF]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Could Utah's status as 'Nerdiest State' be a contributing factor in our unsatisfactory amount of professional sports teams? I've only been to three professional 'sports-ball'* events in my life, and I consider that to be at least 2 too many. I know that many of my acquaintances** have had a similar level of exposure and feel similarly disposed.

*I think the sports event I went to had elevated hoops, but my glasses were too fogged up for me to be sure.

** I wanted to use the word 'friends', but... well, you can probably guess.

I am definitely in this group. I could honestly not give a shit about professional sports.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Marvland

Riddle me this: LA just got an NFL team for the first time in 22 years. Why oh why is that? And how did Utah poll when we stole the jazz from NO? Clay Bennet stole the Sonics from your beloved Seattle (oh my!) and landed them in OKC. You see, those little magazines don't buy and place teams. They are for Google researchers to prove points. Sports franchises are "passion play" business enterprises. Nothing else. We will get a team if somebody wants one and can afford it. Read that all again and repeat it.

Ultimately, that is what it is really all about, and you guys hit the nail right on the head. Whether it's Comrade's points or Marvland's, your both right. It really is a combination of much of what you have both pointed out. If a Miller, a Jones or a Checketts has a passion about a certain sport and the connections, and or personal funds to forward his city's franchise interest, that is where a major league team will establish itself. This, whether a league is expanding or moving a franchise to a financially healthier benefactor's city. When would SLC ever have an NBA team, if not for Miller's passionate devotion to the sport, and his loyalty to Utah? I imagine it would have eventually happened if another Miller came along, but it could have taken as long as OKC. Salt Lake City will get another major franchise when another passionate billionaire and or cartel of individuals, whose finances add up to the right amount, promotes another team for the Wasatch Front.

Lets say that two of SLC CSA's home grown companies continue to expand their impressive national/international growth. There are numerous such companies headquartered along the Wasatch Front. These many companies no longer headquarter somewhere else like they use to after a certain growth level is reached, but stay put locally. If a principal of Fidelity conspired with his buddy, who is a principal of Vivint, and they both share a huge passion for the NHL, chances are we'd be getting an NHL franchise.

It has been very interesting for me, and I expect quite a few other active members who joined this forum around the same time as me or before, how much the Wasatch Front has changed and matured. SLC is now ushering in a period that we all only could dream about back around the time of the Olympics. This same pattern of maturation has been repeated many times around the continent with metros as huge as L.A., S.F., and Dallas or even Phoenix in certain ways as of late. Even smaller metros, but still quite large, such as Minneapolis and Denver. We only need to look around to see the historical perspective.

IMO, the Wasatch Front is very much a rabid sports Metro, much like Denver. Sure there are those who are far more interested in following the performing arts, such as Ballet West or live Theatre. The Wasatch has been hitting way above it's weight for decades when it comes to the performing arts. This, because of the passion of many a local fan base, and shared passion by many local millionaires, such as the Eccles. But again, to add an NFL or MLB franchise it will take billions. What Larry Miller was able to accomplish with his passion for the NBA and his growing millions, will take even more financial clout for today's NFL. The Wasatch just needs to mature a little further along in it's growth process , by expanding it's international trade and marketing reach. Expanding it's base of locally headquartered international business interest, and bringing in and relocating additional multi nationals is all apart of what the Wasatch is all about these days. Additional major sports franchises will come, just as they have elsewhere, when those components of maturation reach a certain threshold. An NFL or MLB franchise will take very deep pockets, and that means billionaire individuals and or billionaire cartels in it's midst. If during that maturation, locally loyal CEO/majority stock holder/sports fans move from millionaire status to billionaire, we'll probably see a franchise added sooner than later.

.

[Future Mayor]

Very well said Delts. I always like how you are able to meld the conversations of multiple people and solidify both points. We are growing and the metro and its population are expanding, maybe not by as much as many of us would like, but it is growing. As for the rapid sports fans that is 100% curate. Yes there are many that could care less about sports ball games, but that is what makes a city interesting, is when it can provide a mix of recreational and entertainment for a broad range of tastes. Apparently there is such a thing as competitive vaping now, which to me sounds like the stupidest thing on the planet, but it's out there and there is a subset of people that like it. My point is this: As the metro continues to grow a percentage of that growth will rabid sports fans that will continue to support the existing teams and eventually more teams. The fact that Jazz games, despite their rebuild over the past few years, have continued average in the top half of the league in attendance. 15-16 #9, 14-15 #10, 13-14 #12, 12-13 #9, 11-12 #6. This is all during RSL's era of near sellouts, as well as Utah Football sell outs. So the fan base is here and it will continue to grow.

[Future Mayor]

I relation to the 151 sign, I will confirm that the banner is new. I am thrilled that it is advertising and I am thrilled that 111 is 80% leased, before even opening. If the demand continues we will have another tower, starting construction before 151 opens it's doors.

Due to the growth that Goldman has shown here, I honestly expect another financial services company to expand their local presence or expand to the market and to locate downtown. If the financial serviced industry does continue to grow in Salt Lake City, that growth will also include Zions. If another major company enters downtown with a strong presence I wouldn't be surprised to see Zions build their new headquarters soon after. That would finally fill in that missing tooth on Main and 100 S.

If this growth rate continues, developers may be able to speculate on taller buildings, if they are able to pre-lease more initially that could push the height of our next tower a little taller. I wouldn't be surprised if the City Creek Tower, adjacent to Harmons, is the next tower after 151. The site is ready and it is already planned for a tower.

I'm very optimistic about Salt Lake City's growth, and baring another major economic downturn I expect that we won't go more than a couple of months, between tower cranes building office buildings over the next 10-15 years.

[Makid]

Would it be possible that 151 sees another height increase?

They missed the last extension and with 111 being 80% leased roughly 4 to 6 months prior to opening, I would think it is possible for 151 to have an increase in height as this does show demand.

I would think though that if 151 doesn't see a height increase from the last design we will hear about the CCC State/1st South tower fairly quickly due to the demand the market is showing.

Additionally, Boyer did build their last smaller project on pure speculation because of the need for larger spaces than were available. I can see this progressing fairly quick as companies move and expand, the need for larger spaces will increase and this will help drive the speculation market in SLC. As long as it isn't over built, I do agree that we should have increasingly shorter cycles between Commercial/Mixed Use projects within the Downtown area.

[Viperlord]

It appears that the red "jump" portion of the tower crane for 111 Main is at the top of the tower, and the crane is beginning to lower itself down. Can anyone confirm this?

[Comrade]

Salt Lake City should look into getting a NHL team. I think it fits the market perfectly. The only downside is that I doubt the Miller Family would be too happy about the competition it brings since the NBA and NHL play at the same time.

I don't buy that Salt Lake isn't rabid enough to support sports. I think it's a perfect city for it - as RSL, Utah and BYU football, as well as Utah and BYU basketball, have shown. With that said, I'm not so sure we're a baseball state.

College baseball, across the board, struggles, even with BYU and UVU having their own stadiums and Utah making the baseball tournament and winning the Pac-12 this season. I've touched on how the Bees have struggled at the gate the last few years and Utah is the lone West Region to never field a team to qualify for the Little League World Series.

I think we're rabid basketball fans and rabid football fans...but I don't see Utah as being rabid baseball fans.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Viperlord

It appears that the red "jump" portion of the tower crane for 111 Main is at the top of the tower, and the crane is beginning to lower itself down. Can anyone confirm this?

Yup... They are setting up the equipment across the street to pull the crane down... The Protected walkways are also gone.

[msbutah]

Farewell to the 111 crane

[delts145]

I hope the day is fast approaching when we'll see this little patch of blacktop bite the dust. It would be cool if as Future Mayor suggested, it became the location for a new Zion's Bank Headquarters tower.

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Yup... They are setting up the equipment across the street to pull the crane down... The Protected walkways are also gone.

[asies1981]

The Planning Commission approved a net zero development on Wednesday. I like these projects that add density in little ways like turning two parcels with two homes into five parcels and five homes.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by asies1981

The Planning Commission approved a net zero development on Wednesday. I like these projects that add density in little ways like turning two parcels with two homes into five parcels and five homes.

Wish they didn't look so suburban.