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  #781  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 12:14 AM
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  #782  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 12:19 AM
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Building to "add heritage." That is a contradiction. Faking history. How about inventing forms and expressions that come from our own time. It's simple quality that should be promoted.

A small note: none of the buildings you guys have been referring to are proper art deco. I don't think the definition needs to be strictly aligned with the seminal works in Vienna, but an example like Atlanta's Bank of America barely qualifies as having true art deco details.
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  #783  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 12:38 AM
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That is an idiotic and incorrect statement. I know New York very well and to say most of their office buildings are art deco is absurd. Maybe you don't know what art deco is.
I went randomly in street view in Lower Manhattan and Midtown.





There only a few places where you cannot find anything art deco, usually Midtown. Most buildings there are International and Post Modern, which take plenty of attributes from Art Deco.



You maybe thought I meant interiors should look art deco, which would be unfeasible. The exterior however is more flexable and The Exchange would suit Vancouver perfectly as Art Deco or something else that isn't generic glass.
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  #784  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 12:45 AM
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Why are you showing older buildings? Yes, NYC has a lot of older deco and other style buildings. The Exchange is a new building. You have lost me. What is your point relative to NYC?

And again: most of those are not deco.
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  #785  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 1:03 AM
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This is straying off-topic.

The only question is whether a new addition to a heritage building should:
- match the old building (perhaps viewed as mimickry)
- contrast the old building (paying deference to it)

Most architects choose the latter.

A notable exception is the 1990s (?) entrance /lobby addition to the Empress Hotel in Victoria, which was built to match and seems to blend in well.
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  #786  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 1:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Marshal View Post
Why are you showing older buildings? Yes, NYC has a lot of older deco and other style buildings. The Exchange is a new building. You have lost me. What is your point relative to NYC?

And again: most of those are not deco.
You are kinda swaying this away from my original arguement. Replicating an older style isn't a waste of space if you organise it well. The Dominion building is a bad example since it was built in a time when Vancouver had about 100,000 people, therefore it's much smaller. Our building technology is far more advanced to build an art deco building without being wasteful.
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  #787  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 3:30 AM
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Could we remake another Birks building somewhere in the CBD, with perhaps a similar treatment as with The Exchange? That was a fine piece of heritage architecture lost.
Unless you happen to like large large retail that ends up being a drug store, as it is now.
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  #788  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 6:52 AM
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Let's stay on topic please.
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  #789  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 7:45 AM
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Originally Posted by officedweller View Post
This is straying off-topic.

The only question is whether a new addition to a heritage building should:
- match the old building (perhaps viewed as mimickry)
- contrast the old building (paying deference to it)

Most architects choose the latter.

A notable exception is the 1990s (?) entrance /lobby addition to the Empress Hotel in Victoria, which was built to match and seems to blend in well.
The Empress example makes me think that your options should be expanded and adapted just a bit:
- part of a heritage rehabilitation/expansion (the Empress)
- in contrast
- respecting the character
The latter two are not mutually exclusive either.

Even though the Exchange obliterates the scale of the heritage component, it does compliment it in a number of ways, while also contrasting (esp. materially).
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  #790  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 8:05 AM
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Originally Posted by BobLoblawsLawBlog View Post
You are kinda swaying this away from my original arguement. Replicating an older style isn't a waste of space if you organise it well. The Dominion building is a bad example since it was built in a time when Vancouver had about 100,000 people, therefore it's much smaller. Our building technology is far more advanced to build an art deco building without being wasteful.
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Originally Posted by Marshal View Post
The Empress example makes me think that your options should be expanded and adapted just a bit:
- part of a heritage rehabilitation/expansion (the Empress)
- in contrast
- respecting the character
The latter two are not mutually exclusive either.

Even though the Exchange obliterates the scale of the heritage component, it does compliment it in a number of ways, while also contrasting (esp. materially).
Sorry, I really don't want to be a pain, and I won't bug you again, but you are still mistaken. My point is directly challenging this claim that "replicating an older style isn't a waste of space." I gather you're not an architect, but a style (esp. older modernism) is more than the external look and details. It grows out from the structural system, the scale of the building components, and the expression of it all on the exterior. Ornament was then developed to work aesthetically within that geometric scale and pattern. Now I won't say anything about wasted space . . . but lets look from the other direction: applying a deco facade to a modern tower would destroy the harmony of sizes and components that define deco. That's why these towers end up oddly proportioned and because true deco (or other) ornamentation would cost a lot to replicate, they are also usually a combination of styles and older building themes that really have no good logic together. The whole exercise is questionable unless all you want is fakery and effect. Good modern architecture is capable of providing the emotional goals of warmth, detail, human scale, etc.
Second, the Marine building is not a bad example; quite the opposite given the context you have provided. There are many 40-50-60 story towers in NYC (downtown) that share similar sized floor plates. The only thing that is limited by Vancouver's size at that time is the height: the Dominion Building could reasonably have been 45 stories/same footprint.
Last, you are wrong that "our building technology is far more advanced to build an art deco building without being wasteful." It would require wastefulness, and good luck with the budget. And when budgets don't work, architects are designing something that they shouldn't be.

Last word, I promise.
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  #791  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 6:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal View Post
Building to "add heritage." That is a contradiction. Faking history. How about inventing forms and expressions that come from our own time.
Totally with Marshal on this one.

Also, quite glad the fins are turning out to be as substantial as the render (as opposed to scaled down to have barely an effect on the curtain wall, as is often the case).
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  #792  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 8:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshal View Post
Building to "add heritage." That is a contradiction. Faking history. How about inventing forms and expressions that come from our own time. It's simple quality that should be promoted.
I respectfully disagree with you. To quote the Getty Conservation Institute, part of the architect's role is to "create the heritage of tomorrow." I can appreciate projects like Vancouver's Trump Tower, but not every building have to suscribe to this style. For the Exchange, the architect could have chosen a more historical style while nevertheless utilizing modern materials and technologies. You could call this historicism, but that'd be shortchanging it.

Walking around West Hastings and Granville, one can appreciate the rich textures and materials used for so many buildings, as well as their intricate design. An architect who would raise to the challenge of creating a modern building in the greater context of maintaining the architectural integrity of our historical financial district would deserve much more credit than 'faking history.' There is more to modern architecture than slapping glass onto concrete slabs.

But this conversation about architecture is off subject, and I personally can think of several ways the Exchange could have turned terribly wrong. Now it will merely be another missed opportunity.
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  #793  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 9:48 PM
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Last edited by Marshal; Jun 16, 2016 at 3:28 AM.
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  #794  
Old Posted Jun 15, 2016, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Joseph K. View Post
I respectfully disagree with you. To quote the Getty Conservation Institute, part of the architect's role is to "create the heritage of tomorrow." I can appreciate projects like Vancouver's Trump Tower, but not every building have to suscribe to this style. For the Exchange, the architect could have chosen a more historical style while nevertheless utilizing modern materials and technologies. You could call this historicism, but that'd be shortchanging it.

Walking around West Hastings and Granville, one can appreciate the rich textures and materials used for so many buildings, as well as their intricate design. An architect who would raise to the challenge of creating a modern building in the greater context of maintaining the architectural integrity of our historical financial district would deserve much more credit than 'faking history.' There is more to modern architecture than slapping glass onto concrete slabs.

But this conversation about architecture is off subject, and I personally can think of several ways the Exchange could have turned terribly wrong. Now it will merely be another missed opportunity.
Two things:
1) when they say "create the heritage of tomorrow," they mean the best of architecture today . . . modern architecture, not building to follow the architecture of the past. What your kind of argument never acknowledges is that you are proffering nothing more than your own taste. The architects who designed the buildings you put forth had the same pressures to build those in an even earlier style. And so with those before them. Heritage is not a rationally defendable term, otherwise one could argue for anything that came before in our history. You are just expressing your taste.
2) none of you address the actual items I put forth . . . I am an architect and I know how a design is generated, and what aspects of the complex influence and dictate other aspects. Why don't you discuss the architectural issues I have raised?

THE EXCHANGE

I didn't like this thing when I first saw it, but its been growing on me. The fins and their spacing are 'muscular' and give mass to what would otherwise be a faceted glass surface. The fins and the faceting (I only mean that the floor plate is not square but has a number of bends that allow it to relate to the old building in a more complex manner) make it work with the old portion while also contrasting in their modern aspect (material and reduced geometry). There is less contrast between old and new because of this. A purer shape would challenge the old rectangular building mass, while a typical all glass curtain wall would have ignored the heavier construction of the old.

Also, the new is a pretty massive and potentially overpowering composition. I am not sure they will pull this off, but there is at least an integrity in it. This whole project seems to try to take care of the old building through letting its size and material temperment have physical impacts on the form of the new tower, but it also does not try to hide what is going on: namely that a much larger construction is being imposed, one that reduces the original to a relatively small role (and in all of this I mean experientially).

Will it work? Well, the location helps: close up experience will favour the older building, while the new rises beyond at some remove. Also, this is the area of the downtown that can best incorporate a chunky massive tower block. I'm still not convinced, but the odds are better than the Telus condo tower, which uses 200+ different elements to mediate its massiveness, resulting in a mess which still looks incredibly massive and heavy anyway.
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  #795  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2016, 5:47 AM
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  #796  
Old Posted Jun 21, 2016, 9:51 PM
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Thanks!
Great colour for the spandrels below each window.
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  #797  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2016, 2:53 AM
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Isn't that maybe just one tone darker than the standard one? This being an office tower, I wish they would have went with all-glass facade with not spandrel. It's not bad, but would have been better.
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  #798  
Old Posted Jun 22, 2016, 6:57 AM
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It's darker than Shaw Tower (which is bland light gray), and contrasts nicely with the fins.
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  #799  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2016, 8:56 PM
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  #800  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2016, 10:02 AM
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