Ottawa's Byward Market

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

That assumes that the "homeless" are actually homeless and not people with addiction issues that hang around the market because of proximity to easy panhandling, open air drug markets and related services (and probably a future safe injection site).

If the Sandy Hill safe injection site proposal goes through (at Rideau & Nelson) it will presumably shift the crowds a little further east.

Safe injection sites are another great initiative that can cut down on all these problems. The results other places have gotten from them are incredible.

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Hmm. Perhaps in South Korea you don't see this sort of thing, for whatever reason (some countries have terrifying approaches to these things; there are some places where the homeless are literally thrown in jail simply for being homeless).

It will definitely be interesting to see how this situation changes. New policies and government initiatives (like housing first, greater mental health aids, plus the longer term effects of improved child mental health services, etc.) are set to dramatically reduce the size of the homeless population within the coming decades.

The vast majority that panhandle in the market (or most other places) are doing so to support their habit of drugs or alcohol. They may indeed be homeless, but they'd give up home comfort for a shot in a flash.

More Gov't spending into the poverty industry won't solve this problem.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by NOWINYOW

The vast majority that panhandle in the market (or most other places) are doing so to support their habit of drugs or alcohol. They may indeed be homeless, but they'd give up home comfort for a shot in a flash.

More Gov't spending into the poverty industry won't solve this problem.

This is precisely what makes the new approach so much superior; it focuses on the root causes of it all, which is addiction & mental health itself.

The old approach of treating addicts like criminals, or even worse, as subhumans who should simply be ignored, is thankfully on its way out. Now it's in vogue for policymakers to look at addicts as they really are: mentally ill people who need help. It's about friggen time.

[canabiz]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

This is precisely what makes the new approach so much superior; it focuses on the root causes of it all, which is addiction & mental health itself.

The old approach of treating addicts like criminals, or even worse, as subhumans who should simply be ignored, is thankfully on its way out. Now it's in vogue for policymakers to look at addicts as they really are: mentally ill people who need help. It's about friggen time.

I have an issue with your statement. Yes some addicts have mental illness and they deserve our help and support but other addicts are simply immature and irresponsible adults who need to take full responsibility for their actions. I just think the term *mental illness* is being thrown around too often these days, rightly or wrongly.

On another note, I tried to tell my wife's niece to look at the beautiful side of the Market e.g. the old buildings, the vendors, the beautiful shops and galleries along Sussex Dr etc. I have been to South Korea 3 times and yes I have seen homeless people/panhandlers/hustlers so this problem is certainly not limited to our backyard.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by canabiz

I have an issue with your statement. Yes some addicts have mental illness and they deserve our help and support but other addicts are simply immature and irresponsible adults who need to take full responsibility for their actions.

Kind of hard to do that when nobody in society is willing to give them a chance.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

If the Sandy Hill safe injection site proposal goes through (at Rideau & Nelson) it will presumably shift the crowds a little further east.

Safe injection sites are another great initiative that can cut down on all these problems. The results other places have gotten from them are incredible.

Safe injection sites have public health benefits (cutting down on disease transmission and making first aid faster in the event of an overdose), but they have no effect on the other related problems. Putting it so close by the byward market will only reinforce the market's role as the destination for people with addition issues.

Obviously these are problems that exist in every city, but Ottawa has a particularly counter-productive strategy of concentrating facilities that attract addicts in the main tourist area of the city, which makes no sense. These facilities should be spread out and the market itself needs better enforcement of existing laws against drug dealing, public urination, aggressive panhandling, public intoxication, etc.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Safe injection sites have public health benefits (cutting down on disease transmission and making first aid faster in the event of an overdose), but they have no effect on the other related problems. Putting it so close by the byward market will only reinforce the market's role as the destination for people with addition issues

Over the longer term, safe injection sites also reduce drug-related crime, and they reduce addiction overall by making it much easier/more practical for addicts to get treatment.

The SHCHC proposal is at Rideau & Nelson. Further away from the market, but at the same time, close enough to the existing concentration of addicts for them to actually use it.

One thing's for sure, if the NIMBYs shut down the safe injection site proposal... I'm completely done with them. It's one thing to oppose a condo tower, another to oppose a life-saving project... if Watson and Action Sandy Hill and the cops stop it, they'll literally have blood on their hands.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Over the longer term, safe injection sites also reduce drug-related crime...

How does that happen? Safe injection sites don't provide free drugs to addicts, they provide a site with some supervision from healthcare providers for BYO drugs. Addicts still have to panhandle, steal, deal, etc. to get the money to buy the drugs. It will provide an incentive to panhandle, deal and steal close to the injection site (in this case the market) which will add to the existing problems.

I'm not against safe injection sites, and I don't live anywhere near the proposed site, but I think it is a terrible idea to continue pile on services designed to attract addicts (and related services such as dealers) within a few hundred metres of the market, which is already way above the saturation point of such services. Also, the proposed site isn't very accessible to a hospital.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

if Watson and Action Sandy Hill and the cops stop it, they'll literally have blood on their hands.

I love this kind of nonsensical rhetoric.

"We already don't have this facility in our city, so continuing to not have this kind of facility in our city is akin to the Mayor and Police being murderers...or accessories to it."

Lol.

[Aylmer]

In a place like the Market which already seems to be host to a lot of drug use, I'd think it much more appropriate to have a facility where they can do it safely than to have them do it out in the open on the streets. Supervised injection sites are staffed with people equipped to deal with the problems that otherwise just spill out onto the sidewalk. You can't wish "undesirables" away - we can only chose between harm reduction and inaction.

[YOWflier]

Those are not the only options. We should be treating the root causes of their issues, not the symptoms. Help them to stop abusing by increasing access to mental health services, rehab, etc.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

Those are not the only options. We should be treating the root causes of their issues, not the symptoms. Help them to stop abusing by increasing access to mental health services, rehab, etc.

This is hard to do for people who are already homeless addicts, but it works wonders for stopping people from getting there in the first place.

[Harley613]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

This is hard to do for people who are already homeless addicts, but it works wonders for stopping people from getting there in the first place.

exactly. the people who need a safe injection site are not the people who will pursue or even accept social services, counselling, etc.

[YOWflier]

^ I simply cannot agree with that.

The people who "need" a safe injection site are people who are addicted to drugs.

Every.single.drug.addict.wants.to.NOT.be.a.drug.addict.anymore.

Their desire for help is very real but it ebbs and flows. It goes hand in hand with the drug addiction and (almost always) mental illness. It's incredibly hard, but there always comes a time when they scratch together enough strength and courage and motivation to decide to stop. When that happens, they need support to do so, not enablers.

[Urbanarchit]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

^ I simply cannot agree with that.

The people who "need" a safe injection site are people who are addicted to drugs.

Every.single.drug.addict.wants.to.NOT.be.a.drug.addict.anymore.

Their desire for help is very real but it ebbs and flows. It goes hand in hand with the drug addiction and (almost always) mental illness. It's incredibly hard, but there always comes a time when they scratch together enough strength and courage and motivation to decide to stop. When that happens, they need support to do so, not enablers.

Except that people working at safe injection sites are not enablers, and safe injection sites do not enable people to continue taking drugs, nor do they encourage people to develop that habit. They're about public health and providing support while offering a safe, stigma-free zone for those who are addicts. It provides them with safe, clean paraphernalia to use so that needles contaminated with HIV, bacteria and other viruses are not being reused or shared with others, further spreading illnesses to those their circle or people who may have some indirect contact with them. Those items can be properly disposed of by professionals who can ensure that the public will not be exposed to used syringes, etc. that might harm them.

A key attribute of safe injections sites is how they are safe and stigma-free. As you correctly identify, people who have drug addictions don't want to be addicts. They may want assistance, but can't access it because they don't have the resources or might be faced with stigma from people from whom they are seeking assistance. Someone who regularly visits a SIS might eventually decide they want to change, and the professionals working there with whom they have become familiar and whom they might trust become allies who can provide them with those resources to get help.

While, yes, we should be investing in drug rehabilitation programs, you argue as thought SIS is separate from the recovery process. Yet it may primarily be for public safety, it is an important and often excluded step in assisting people with drug addictions to kick the habit. It can keep the wide public safe from drug paraphernalia strewn around; it can keep those using drugs and those who may have some sort of contact with them from becoming infected or developing serious yet avoidable illnesses. It will also provide, as I think 1overcosc stated earlier, with people who can assist those who really want to quit. SIS together with rehab centres can help curb drug addiction problems and public safety. It is not one or the other.

[YOWflier]

The people aren't enablers, the site itself is.

And to say it's not one or the other assumes infinite resources (money, mostly). In reality resources are finite, so they must be allocated in a manner where the investment yields the best return. Diluting finite resources means no single thing is done particularly effectively.

I'm all about aggressively targeting the curing of addictions with every dime available. Focus on helping getting people off the drugs and productive in society. It's what they want after all, and it's in everyone's best interest.

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

The people aren't enablers, the site itself is.

And to say it's not one or the other assumes infinite resources (money, mostly). In reality resources are finite, so they must be allocated in a manner where the investment yields the best return. Diluting finite resources means no single thing is done particularly effectively.

I'm all about aggressively targeting the curing of addictions with every dime available. Focus on helping getting people off the drugs and productive in society. It's what they want after all, and it's in everyone's best interest.

err.. if it was that easy why isn't it already done? To everyone saying a supervised drug site is a waste of resources, its cheaper than constantly having police and paramedics coming to these people. How many of these people can make the decision to get into rehab while they are high on the street? Our current system is all about telling people to stop. If you walk down Rideau, you can see how well that's working. It's the same deal with crime in general, we punish people with jail and then punish them with a hard time getting back into society and then we wonder why recidivism is up.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

The people aren't enablers, the site itself is.

And to say it's not one or the other assumes infinite resources (money, mostly). In reality resources are finite, so they must be allocated in a manner where the investment yields the best return. Diluting finite resources means no single thing is done particularly effectively.

I'm all about aggressively targeting the curing of addictions with every dime available. Focus on helping getting people off the drugs and productive in society. It's what they want after all, and it's in everyone's best interest.

Safe injection sites don't cost anything. They are very cheap to run and they save the health care system dollars elsewhere in reduced overdose incidents, and very quickly too. After 2-3 years, the existence of the SIS is saving taxpayers money rather than costing it.

Then we can use those savings to invest in treatment programs.. and boom, we've got both.

Public spending isn't about avoiding cost, it's about minimizing cost. Any proposal or idea has a cost to implement, and a cost to NOT implement. That's something that we must always keep in mind.

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Safe injection sites don't cost anything. They are very cheap to run ...

There's a cost to everything. Nothing is free. So there is a cost. There is the cost in dollars and there is the cost to locals insofar as running their businesses or living in residential.

SIS's are not hotels. People come in, get a new needle, do their business and leave. They are again wandering streets and panhandling for their next fix.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Safe injection sites don't cost anything. They are very cheap to run ...

So they don't cost anything, but are very cheap to run, which means they cost something. Gotcha.

Public spending isn't about avoiding cost, it's about minimizing cost.

It's neither of those things. It's about respecting the public dollar by spending it in a manner that provides either most benefit to the public, or the best solution to a problem, or both, in the most efficient and effective way possible. Safe injection sites do nothing of the sort. In fact, they achieve the opposite.

I hope and trust (and demand) that the Mayor and Police and the public at large will do everything possible to block this asinine idea.

Originally Posted by silvergate

err.. if it was that easy why isn't it already done? [...] How many of these people can make the decision to get into rehab while they are high on the street? Our current system is all about telling people to stop. If you walk down Rideau, you can see how well that's working.

Who said it was easy? Actually, it's precisely because it isn't easy that the right things aren't being done.

People don't make the decision to seek counseling and/or go into rehab while they are high on the street. When they're high, they're high, and don't give a 🞵🞵🞵🞵 about anything else. But, they're not high 24/7; what goes up always comes down, and during those depressions they sometimes (as I said earlier) scratch together enough strength and courage and motivation to say "enough!" It's at that moment where they need resources to help them (walk-in clinics with Psychiatrists, Psychologists, rehab specialists, etc.). The window is a small one. SIS does nothing. A poster telling them to "say no" does nothing.

Originally Posted by NOWINYOW

There's a cost to everything. Nothing is free. So there is a cost. There is the cost in dollars and there is the cost to locals insofar as running their businesses or living in residential.

SIS's are not hotels. People come in, get a new needle, do their business and leave. They are again wandering streets and panhandling for their next fix.

Finally, someone who gets it. Except that they're not just panhandling, which is relatively benign. They're often committing crime.

Anyway, I've said my bit, others theirs, and I don't think either camp is going to change its perspective. I certainly won't.