Ottawa's Byward Market

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by TheGoods

You state that we would get more business from pedestrians and cyclists, I agree with your comment but I will also lose customers that drive.

I don't think I read anywhere that total elimination of parking in the market was being discussed. At most it's a couple dozen (?) spots.. would the elimination of those spots really stop a dedicated customer from parking around the corner in January? Is parking *really* that tight in the off season??

[zzptichka]

Originally Posted by TheGoods

Again, I am a business owner in the Market, so, this is not just the BIA, it is my opinion based on speaking to my customers and learning the demographics of my customer.

You state that we would get more business from pedestrians and cyclists, I agree with your comment but I will also lose customers that drive. Yes, I will have a larger clientele percentage wise for 2 to 3 months but did you ever factor their spending habits? I already have cyclists that come and paid attention to their spending habits. How many cyclist do their weekly grocery shopping? How many have a party or occasion and want to head down to the market to buy cheese, chacuterie, bread, crakers, fruits, vegetables, etc.. They are not leaving our store with a handful of bags, usually a few small items that they can put in their backpack. The other factor you keep forgetting is that this is for 2 to 3 months.

If I annoy and potentially lose my big spenders (customers) with a grocery bill in excess of $100 and replace them with $10 purchases for 2 to 3 months of the year and they do not step back into the store the remaining 10 months of the year, I might see a small surge in business for 2 months. That is a maybe, not sure how many small purchases I would need to replace my large customers. I will use Canada Day as an example, it is a day that there are hardly any cars in the market, it is one of our slower days of the year.
I cannot build a business on 2 to 3 months of the year; I would have been out of business a long time ago. Customers have habits and if we make it too difficult during a specific period, they will setup new habits and not come back in the fall, spring and winter.

I already have enough data to support my opinion, our biggest sales period are Christmas and New Year’s (early December to New Year’s) which no one is walking around the Market, everyone is coming with their cars. Another busy period is fall, starting Labour Day in September to late October when families are back at work. Other major holidays like Thanks Giving and Easter. Canada Day is one of our slowest day of the year, you have plenty of people walking around, are they shopping, NO. If you want the Market to continue having a food retail component and farmers, this is not a great idea. If you want the market to target mostly restaurants, café’s, bars, yes, this would work.

Lastly, in the months of January, February and March, if it wasn’t for our regular customers driving down to the Market, we would be out of business. I cannot cater my business for individuals that will come 2 or 3 months of the year with small purchases.

You are fighting a straw man here. No one is talking about booting out all customers who drive. It's about giving pedestrians AND other vendors 2 streets with side parking. That's what, 2% of all parking in the area? Part of which is used by the vendors most likely anyway.
Even then, they are building new underground garage.
And don't forget in 2 years there will be new LRT station and a couple of new condo towers steps from the market. People need space. Not cars.
And yes, most vendors overestimate percentage of people who arrive by car. Every single research that's been done confirms that.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by TheGoods

Again, I am a business owner in the Market, so, this is not just the BIA, it is my opinion based on speaking to my customers and learning the demographics of my customer.

You state that we would get more business from pedestrians and cyclists, I agree with your comment but I will also lose customers that drive. Yes, I will have a larger clientele percentage wise for 2 to 3 months but did you ever factor their spending habits? I already have cyclists that come and paid attention to their spending habits. How many cyclist do their weekly grocery shopping? How many have a party or occasion and want to head down to the market to buy cheese, chacuterie, bread, crakers, fruits, vegetables, etc.. They are not leaving our store with a handful of bags, usually a few small items that they can put in their backpack. The other factor you keep forgetting is that this is for 2 to 3 months.

If I annoy and potentially lose my big spenders (customers) with a grocery bill in excess of $100 and replace them with $10 purchases for 2 to 3 months of the year and they do not step back into the store the remaining 10 months of the year, I might see a small surge in business for 2 months. That is a maybe, not sure how many small purchases I would need to replace my large customers. I will use Canada Day as an example, it is a day that there are hardly any cars in the market, it is one of our slower days of the year.
I cannot build a business on 2 to 3 months of the year; I would have been out of business a long time ago. Customers have habits and if we make it too difficult during a specific period, they will setup new habits and not come back in the fall, spring and winter.

I already have enough data to support my opinion, our biggest sales period are Christmas and New Year’s (early December to New Year’s) which no one is walking around the Market, everyone is coming with their cars. Another busy period is fall, starting Labour Day in September to late October when families are back at work. Other major holidays like Thanks Giving and Easter. Canada Day is one of our slowest day of the year, you have plenty of people walking around, are they shopping, NO. If you want the Market to continue having a food retail component and farmers, this is not a great idea. If you want the market to target mostly restaurants, café’s, bars, yes, this would work.

Lastly, in the months of January, February and March, if it wasn’t for our regular customers driving down to the Market, we would be out of business. I cannot cater my business for individuals that will come 2 or 3 months of the year with small purchases.

I wouldn't presume to know your business, so my comments are based on general data from studies that have been done on mainstreets etc., including in Ottawa The idea, however, is that cyclists visit more often - yes they spend less per visit, but they make more visits, so the net effect is higher spending over time. Right now the Market isn't very cyclist-friendly, particularly in terms of access, so cyclists don't go out of their way to pass through. If it was more friendly, the numbers may go up.

You do make a couple of claims that don't make a lot of sense to me. You note that your sales are high around Christmas when no one walks around the Market and everyone is coming with their cars. I haven't looked for stats, but I find it hard to believe that people taking transit or walking don't make up a substantial percentage of visitors at that time of year. They certainly do for the Rideau Centre. I would also suggest that the cycling year is more like 6-7 months, not 2-3 as you state.

As noted, no one here is asking for a complete ban on cars. I don't think even Jannette Sadik-Khan was doing that, despite the headlines. To me, it makes sense to expand the pedestrian and cycling facilities during certain times of year and maybe even certain times of day. A lot could be done with parking facilities on the periphery of the core Market.

The last thing I would say is that improvements to the pedestrian areas would be good for drivers as well. The do get out of their cars, and many drivers visit the area to walk around and check out different businesses. The more appealing the area (and the more it is different from the typical suburban shopping experience - you can't compete with the suburbs on parking), the bigger the the draw it will be.

We go down fairly regularly year round, mostly to eat or to grab food to take home. Admittedly it has been less since Lansdowne has opened. In talking with people I have heard a pretty common sentiment that the Market is tired-looking and has maybe slipped a little in people's consciousness given the rise of other walkable neighbourhoods.

[Arcologist]

Originally Posted by TheGoods

Out of curiosity, how many of my fellow Skyscarper board members go down to the Byward Market and if so, when do you head down,what day of the week (weekends, weekday), is it a year round activity, (weekly, monthly), what months do you go down, how much do you spend on groceries. Ask yourself these questions?

What the retail businesses in the Market need are regular weekly customers all year around. A solution needs to include all aspects, with these changes, would you become a regular to the Market and replace your spending habits from going to the Loblaws in the suburbs down to the Market.

We live in the burbs, and we bring our kids to the Byward Market from time to time. It's mostly in the summer/nicer months, but we do go in winter occasionally.

Our favourite sites are the courtyards. We'll find some decent food and a nice place in one of the courtyards to chow down.

I can't say I mind the cars -- in fact, I feel they sorta add to the "charm" of the Market.

I'd like to see some sort of hybrid approach, whereby we have both pedestrian-only areas and areas where cars and people are permitted.

The plan above looks sensible to me and seems to achieve this quite well, imo.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by TheGoods

Out of curiosity, how many of my fellow Skyscarper board members go down to the Byward Market and if so, when do you head down,what day of the week (weekends, weekday), is it a year round activity, (weekly, monthly), what months do you go down, how much do you spend on groceries. Ask yourself these questions?

What the retail businesses in the Market need are regular weekly customers all year around. A solution needs to include all aspects, with these changes, would you become a regular to the Market and replace your spending habits from going to the Loblaws in the suburbs down to the Market.

I work close to the market and often park near the market or get off the bus near the market, so I am often in the market every day in the morning and after work, year around. I tend to not buy groceries very often, partly because many market businesses keep dentist hours, partly because many supermarkets have upped their game, partly because the flea market atmosphere doesn't put me in a spending mood.

Clearly there is a generation that got in the habit of driving to the market to do their weekly grocery shopping and clearly that is an important demographic for many longstanding market businesses. But I don't think that's where the future is.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I work close to the market and often park near the market or get off the bus near the market, so I am often in the market every day in the morning and after work, year around. I tend to not buy groceries very often, partly because many market businesses keep dentist hours, partly because many supermarkets have upped their game, partly because the flea market atmosphere doesn't put me in a spending mood.

Clearly there is a generation that got in the habit of driving to the market to do their weekly grocery shopping and clearly that is an important demographic for many longstanding market businesses. But I don't think that's where the future is.

It has been all down hill since the old Dominion store closed, imho. Over time, I went from buying all my food in the Market to being a frequent visitor to pick up fruit/veg, cheese and specialty meats, to being an increasingly occasional visitor who might pick up an item or two on a whim. As a farmers market, the area has been eclipsed. The generally mediocre restaurants are not much of a draw for me. The retail is too limited to be an attraction to me. The touristy stuff is mostly just annoying clutter. Rents are, I imagine, too high for interesting new retailers to open a shop. I think the place could be cleaned up and I wouldn't mind if it were partly/largely/completely pedestrianized, since that would at least give it some element of uniqueness, but I really don't think there's much that can be realistically be done to turn the place around. Perhaps if the Byward Market and the parking garage building could be turned into a world class fresh food destination, there might be something to build an attractive neighbourhood around, but Ottawa tends not to think big on that kind of thing.

[zzptichka]

Since moving to Ottawa I've been to the Market maybe a couple of times and the only thing I remember are cramped narrow sidewalks between produce/flower stands and buildings.
Doesn't make me want to come back for sure.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The generally mediocre restaurants are not much of a draw for me.

You make some good points, but I have to take issue with this statement. Murray Street, Play, and Eighteen are hardly mediocre, and there are lots of great mid-range restaurants as well. It still has the biggest collection of restaurant options in the city - there is no decline there.

I certainly wouldn't write it off. It's got great bones and an unbeatable location, right on the LRT. The trend is definitely positive.

[YOWflier]

^ Completely agree about restaurants and the Market in general. There's also Social, Metropolitain, Navarra .... then tons in the mid-range as you said.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by phil235

You make some good points, but I have to take issue with this statement. Murray Street, Play, and Eighteen are hardly mediocre, and there are lots of great mid-range restaurants as well. It still has the biggest collection of restaurant options in the city - there is no decline there.

I certainly wouldn't write it off. It's got great bones and an unbeatable location, right on the LRT. The trend is definitely positive.

Yes, I was thinking of Murray St as home to some exceptions even as I posted and later thought of
Play as an example that targeted "upmarket" (with pretentions of trendy, even, at least back in the day!). IMHO, they should be the norm in the Market, not the exceptions. If Ottawa wants to make something more of the Market, why not aim explicitly to make it Canada's best farmers/urban market and the country's premier food destination? It might take twenty years to achieve, but it could be done.

[rocketphish]

Council approves ByWard Market makeover

Lucy Scholey, OBJ
Published on May 11, 2016

The ByWard Market will soon get a fresh look after city councillors unanimously approved a “revitalization” plan for the neighbourhood.

But a car-free ByWard Market is not part of the plan – nor should it ever be, according to several councillors.

What the plan does include is a $1-million overhaul of the George Street Plaza, complete with new vendor stalls, seating and a horse fountain.

Although Diane Deans represents the suburban ward of Gloucester-Southgate, she was vocal in approving the ByWard Market revitalization plan. But she fell short of supporting a pedestrian-only tourist hub, later telling Metro it would be “too far, too fast.” Removing surface parking – particularly on York Street – would be a positive step, she said.

“If you take away all of the cars, you are going to make the businesses suffer in that area,” added Stittsville Coun. Shad Qadri. Orleans Coun. Bob Monette and Kanata South Coun. Allan Hubley shared similar sentiments.

The notion of a pedestrian-only zone in the city’s tourist hub recently made headlines when former New York City transit commissioner Janette Sadik-Khan made the suggestion during a visit.

Somerset Coun. Catherine McKenney, who’s known for travelling the city on two wheels, is warm to the idea. A future light rail will allow more people to travel downtown sans cars. Therefore, she said, the city should invest more in infrastructure that gets people walking and cycling.

“A car-free ByWard Market could be one way to achieve this,” she wrote in an email.

Councillors also approved two 26-storey, car-free student apartment towers on the block between Besserer and Rideau streets.

LRT was also on the agenda as councillors approved changes to three future LRT stations, including shifting the Cleary Station so it fronts on Richmond Road.

The move will affect the shopping plaza at 747 Richmond Road, but a city report said the shift would create more accessibility and visibility to cyclists and pedestrians. It also said there was potential to bundle the Cleary Station's construction with the redevelopment of the plaza.

This article originally appeared on metronews.ca on May 11.

with files from obj staff

http://www.obj.ca/Local/City-Hall/2016-0...ouncil-approves-ByWard-Market-makeover/1

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by zzptichka

Since moving to Ottawa I've been to the Market maybe a couple of times and the only thing I remember are cramped narrow sidewalks between produce/flower stands and buildings.
Doesn't make me want to come back for sure.

Sounds like Yogi Berra's complaint about the restaurant: "No one ever goes there any more; it's too crowded."

[kwoldtimer]

The only sidewalk in the Market that gets crowded to the point of unpleasantness is Byward between George and York. I don't know whether the planned changes will do anything about that.

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

The only sidewalk in the Market that gets crowded to the point of unpleasantness is Byward between George and York. I don't know whether the planned changes will do anything about that.

North side of Clarence is regularly congested to the point of people, myself included, walking in the underutilized road.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by gjhall

North side of Clarence is regularly congested to the point of people, myself included, walking in the underutilized road.

I've never experienced that, although I can see why it could happen. Thinking about it, I normally gravitate to the other side of Clarence, especially in the summer, so maybe that's what I'm responding to.

[TheGoods]

Originally Posted by phil235

I wouldn't presume to know your business, so my comments are based on general data from studies that have been done on mainstreets etc., including in Ottawa The idea, however, is that cyclists visit more often - yes they spend less per visit, but they make more visits, so the net effect is higher spending over time. Right now the Market isn't very cyclist-friendly, particularly in terms of access, so cyclists don't go out of their way to pass through. If it was more friendly, the numbers may go up.

You do make a couple of claims that don't make a lot of sense to me. You note that your sales are high around Christmas when no one walks around the Market and everyone is coming with their cars. I haven't looked for stats, but I find it hard to believe that people taking transit or walking don't make up a substantial percentage of visitors at that time of year. They certainly do for the Rideau Centre. I would also suggest that the cycling year is more like 6-7 months, not 2-3 as you state.

As noted, no one here is asking for a complete ban on cars. I don't think even Jannette Sadik-Khan was doing that, despite the headlines. To me, it makes sense to expand the pedestrian and cycling facilities during certain times of year and maybe even certain times of day. A lot could be done with parking facilities on the periphery of the core Market.

The last thing I would say is that improvements to the pedestrian areas would be good for drivers as well. The do get out of their cars, and many drivers visit the area to walk around and check out different businesses. The more appealing the area (and the more it is different from the typical suburban shopping experience - you can't compete with the suburbs on parking), the bigger the the draw it will be.

We go down fairly regularly year round, mostly to eat or to grab food to take home. Admittedly it has been less since Lansdowne has opened. In talking with people I have heard a pretty common sentiment that the Market is tired-looking and has maybe slipped a little in people's consciousness given the rise of other walkable neighbourhoods.

Maybe I did not explain myself properly; I will take a second try.
First, I am not against having pedestrian friendly streets and closing certain streets based on the types of retail shops. I love the proposed Ogilvie Court, the William St. Closure between Rideau and George, the 2 courtyards in the Market and the closed area off William and York. You mostly have restaurants with Patios and retail that doesn’t require an individual to leave an establishment with lots of bags.

The issue that we are trying to resolve is that there are too many pedestrian mixing in with the vehicles. On a Saturday or Sunday in July and August, the sidewalks overflow with individuals and people start walking on the streets.

In addition, the proposal is to close the street for pedestrian only, your example of increase bicycle traffic doesn’t make sense, bicycle nor cars would be allowed on the street, how will that increase customers coming to the store?

What I am trying to state is that the issue of pedestrian traffic overflowing to the street is only an issue that occurs 2 to 3 months out of year and only on Saturdays and Sundays after 11:00 or 12:00am. In addition, cars come to the market in the winter to a vendor and grab items such as Christmas trees, or flowers pots or garden vegetables. As I also stated, customer come to the market to do their grocery shopping, from their meats at the butcher shop, fish, cheeses, cold cuts, vegetables, baked goods and bread, large gallons of olive oil, milk bags, etc… No different from going to the grocery store and leaving with a cart full of groceries. Our customers come and go to one store, drop off their bags at the car, head to another store, drop off their bags, etc…

We are trying to solve a problem that occurs 12 to 15 weekends a year or 24 to 30 days a calendar year and not the whole day by implementing a solution that would hurt the business the remaining 335 days. Does that make sense? The market might end up another Sparks Street Mall.

[Kitchissippi]

Cars don't buy things, people do. 100% of customers are pedestrians — cars, transit and bikes are just a delivery method. For the ByWard Market, cars are a stagnant and declining mode because even if you build new parking garages, new access roads can't be built and surface parking is detrimental to the volume of pedestrians the space can accommodate. The Market needs to change and focus on providing room for more pedestrians, and shift priority towards modes that have more potential for growth, i.e., transit and cycling. I think it is smart to eventually replace all surface parking with garage parking, and rededicate ground space to people rather than the storage of cars.

[canabiz]

This is anecdotal but my wife's niece is visiting from South Korea and she told me she is not a big fan of the Byward Market because there were/are too many homeless people/panhandlers loitering around.

I tried to explain to her (she is here to learn English/travel so she doesn't quite get all the common expressions/nuances yet) that this is a socio-economic problem and has nothing do with the Byward Market. There are a number of shelters around the Market and it is common to see folks from those shelters milling around, especially on nice days. The panhandlers congregrate where there is a lot of traffic and this is not a problem exclusive to Byward Market/Ottawa/Canada per se, you will see them everywhere you travel.

[1overcosc]

Hmm. Perhaps in South Korea you don't see this sort of thing, for whatever reason (some countries have terrifying approaches to these things; there are some places where the homeless are literally thrown in jail simply for being homeless).

It will definitely be interesting to see how this situation changes. New policies and government initiatives (like housing first, greater mental health aids, plus the longer term effects of improved child mental health services, etc.) are set to dramatically reduce the size of the homeless population within the coming decades.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Hmm. Perhaps in South Korea you don't see this sort of thing, for whatever reason (some countries have terrifying approaches to these things; there are some places where the homeless are literally thrown in jail simply for being homeless).

It will definitely be interesting to see how this situation changes. New policies and government initiatives (like housing first, greater mental health aids, plus the longer term effects of improved child mental health services, etc.) are set to dramatically reduce the size of the homeless population within the coming decades.

That assumes that the "homeless" are actually homeless and not people with addiction issues that hang around the market because of proximity to easy panhandling, open air drug markets and related services (and probably a future safe injection site).