Calgary International Airport II

[Cage]

Originally Posted by casper

I would expect the YYC terminal to be a major employment hub. Especially considering it is a pilot and flight attendant base for WestJet. I believe Jazz also has a base there. Then add all the ground staff from the airlines and the retailers.

There is a pilot and FA base for Westjet and Jazz, plus an FA base for AC. Reserve flying is the major problem for flight crew being dependent on public transit. In reserve flying the crew member must be available to report to their base on 90 minutes notice. Public transit works if the crew member gets a call at 7am to show up to the airport at 9 am for a 10 am flight. Hover get the phone call at 3:15 am to show up at 5am for a 6:10am departure, and personal car will win out over public transit every time. Having a personal vehicle is n unwritten requirement of the crew member job. A question during the job interview will be "where do you live and how do you plan to get to your base within 90 minutes of receiving a call to report for duty". If your answer includes public transit and you are not located within a very short distance from the airport, you will lose the interview just on this question.

From an employment node perspective, YYC has the airfield at the Center and 6 distinct employment centres around the perimeter. YVR is the opposite with employment at the Center along Grant McConachie Way with a minor Employment node at the South Terminal Complex. Solving the dispersed employment nodes is a major challenge for a public transit initiative.

But I'm willing to be proven wrong. If there is a study or guarantee the City can provide so the airport is not out of pocket, go ahead and build public transit to the airport. I just don't want this to be a Calgary Transit field of dreams, "build it and they will come".

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by Cage

There is a pilot and FA base for Westjet and Jazz, plus an FA base for AC. Reserve flying is the major problem for flight crew being dependent on public transit. In reserve flying the crew member must be available to report to their base on 90 minutes notice. Public transit works if the crew member gets a call at 7am to show up to the airport at 9 am for a 10 am flight. Hover get the phone call at 3:15 am to show up at 5am for a 6:10am departure, and personal car will win out over public transit every time. Having a personal vehicle is n unwritten requirement of the crew member job. A question during the job interview will be "where do you live and how do you plan to get to your base within 90 minutes of receiving a call to report for duty". If your answer includes public transit and you are not located within a very short distance from the airport, you will lose the interview just on this question.

From an employment node perspective, YYC has the airfield at the Center and 6 distinct employment centres around the perimeter. YVR is the opposite with employment at the Center along Grant McConachie Way with a minor Employment node at the South Terminal Complex. Solving the dispersed employment nodes is a major challenge for a public transit initiative.

But I'm willing to be proven wrong. If there is a study or guarantee the City can provide so the airport is not out of pocket, go ahead and build public transit to the airport. I just don't want this to be a Calgary Transit field of dreams, "build it and they will come".

To build on this, even if the crews do have a schedule public transit is not that feasible if you have a 6am check in or a 1am finish time and it will take another 90 minutes on transit when the same drive could be made in 15 minutes in your own vehicle.

[Bureaudog]

It's not a couple extra bucks, it's $9.50. It ends at midnight and doesn't resume until 5:30am. It is no longer the Airport/Downtown link, but instead is the Chinatown/T&T link. I work shiftwork at the airport, and whenever my rotation is on 3:00pm and my wife has the car from 8-4 I can either: a) take a $45 cab ride home at 1:30am, b) take leave from work at 11:30pm, or c) take a car2go (for a $12.50 premium, and if there is a car2go at the airport. It's a terrible model for CT. The 100 runs a little later, but then the connecting CTrain from McKnight has left (or was early and you missed it) before the 100 reaches the station.
Sure you could get a monthly pass and there's no premium, but if you only need it a few times a month, $99 isn't really a deal.

Originally Posted by casper

Calgary already has a transit operated premium bus service between the airport and downtown. Costs a couple of extra bucks when leaving the airport and is the same price going to the airport. It includes luggage racks. The odd time I have used it has been around rush hour and it has been crowded leaving downtown.

[Cage]

The new international terminal will have the ability to do sterile International to domestic and international to USA connections.

Couple of weeks ago Canada and Europe signed the One Stop Security protocols necessary to make the International to Domestic sterile transfers happen. Here is the link to the announcement.
http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1036799

Today Frequent travellers are reporting that OSS code is appearing on paper and mobile boarding passes.

Today, only YYZ T1 has the necessary infrastructure to complete OSS. So YYC will be the second destination that will allow sterile connections.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Bureaudog

It's not a couple extra bucks, it's $9.50. It ends at midnight and doesn't resume until 5:30am. It is no longer the Airport/Downtown link, but instead is the Chinatown/T&T link. I work shiftwork at the airport, and whenever my rotation is on 3:00pm and my wife has the car from 8-4 I can either: a) take a $45 cab ride home at 1:30am, b) take leave from work at 11:30pm, or c) take a car2go (for a $12.50 premium, and if there is a car2go at the airport. It's a terrible model for CT. The 100 runs a little later, but then the connecting CTrain from McKnight has left (or was early and you missed it) before the 100 reaches the station.
Sure you could get a monthly pass and there's no premium, but if you only need it a few times a month, $99 isn't really a deal.

There will always be exceptions where a "best solution" doesn't work for everyone. If I worked in a bar and ended at 2:30am 8 times a month, regular transit anywhere in the city would be a complicated deal also.

Perhaps you are suggesting that the service just be scrapped?

[Bureaudog]

Originally Posted by suburbia

There will always be exceptions where a "best solution" doesn't work for everyone. If I worked in a bar and ended at 2:30am 8 times a month, regular transit anywhere in the city would be a complicated deal also.

Perhaps you are suggesting that the service just be scrapped?

I don't know what the best solution is, as I'm not an expert in public transit - only can comment from a user's viewpoint. As was mentioned earlier by another poster and built on by you, there's definitely difficulty in transit meeting everyone's unique needs (i.e. another employee who works the same schedule as me may live in Airdrie and be just as SOL.
However, having been in the situation at 2:30 where, say, a flight has been delayed due to weather and I've had to stay to close up shop, I tend to feel quite a bit of anxiety when I look at the car2go map and see there are no cars at Park2Go nor the Hampton Inn, the bus service has long ended, and I can either take a cab and choke down the $45 trip to downtown (which includes the airport departure tax) or wait until 5:30am.
There's many things I can point to that are wrong with the Route 300: cost, length of trip to downtown, service gaps in the twilight hours. But just because I can point out fault doesn't mean it's a bad service (luggage racks, 20 minute frequency, stop at the terminal).
I often opt for the 100, which is Bus->Train->10 minute walk vs. the Route 300 which is Bus->Train->10 minute walk (sometimes 10 minute shorter trip time). I choose the 100 because, despite being 10 minutes longer of a trip, it is $3.25 compared to $9.50.
However, another option is to walk six minutes to the Husky Gas station to catch the 300, which is then the normal $3.25 fare. I see some others have also caught onto this trick too.
My reasoning for taking the bus is unique to my situation, and likely different than others, but it's that my family cannot sustain driving two vehicles and parking two vehicles in downtown Calgary for the sake of a few nights per month.
As for a comment earlier in the thread about the drive times from wherever to the airport compared to the lengthy drive to the airport, some of the factors left out are: finding/paying for parking in downtown (for visitors), finding/paying for/accessing parking (e.g. offsite by shuttle) at the airport (for all travellers), traffic on the Deerfoot, etc., that BRT or LRT service can often negate. The nice thing about taking CT to work is I'm off right at the terminal, and not parking in the employee lot (all the way at the back if there're no spots) which adds up to 10 minutes of walking when I do drive to work.
I dunno, it's hard to have a perfect solution. The new terminal opening will also bring new challenges, such as whether to have two CT stops, etc.

[EdmontonTraveller]

Originally Posted by Cage

The new international terminal will have the ability to do sterile International to domestic and international to USA connections.

Couple of weeks ago Canada and Europe signed the One Stop Security protocols necessary to make the International to Domestic sterile transfers happen.

Do you know if or how Canada Customs and YYC/YYZ have addressed the co-mingling issue?

The underlying problem is the mingling in the transit area of incoming passengers arriving from countries with differing security regimes. There is a longstanding need for an agreed set of international standards for security screening, together with a rigorous, independent inspection programme.

(Courtesy IFSEC.)

Also curious that YVR seems to have the physical layout required, but has not been announced yet.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by EdmontonTraveller

Do you know if or how Canada Customs and YYC/YYZ have addressed the co-mingling issue?


(Courtesy IFSEC.)

Also curious that YVR seems to have the physical layout required, but has not been announced yet.

For YYC new international terminal, all arriving international pax will go to Canada Customs Hall, if the pax Boarding Pass has OSS and the correct bar code, they will follow signs for international connections. At Canada Customs Hall the pax will go to an elevator where their BP will be validated. A short trip up to international connections desk. At the exit to international connections, pax will be at the D&E terminus of the Compact Tranaport System.

For YYZ, there is an existing connections corridor above gates 53-57 that is currently used for domestic to international connections. At node F, there is an existing CBSA primary inspection station to handle International to International and USA to International. This same station can be used to connect International to Donestic if the pax has appropriate OSS indicator on their BP.

For YVR, they have separated their International to USA and International to International connections from the domestic pax flow. international/USA to domestic connections go through normal primary inspection line. Domestic connection passenger drop off their bags with Air Canada (Westjet is not set up to handle domestic connections) and proceed up an elevator to domestic connections Center for security processing. Because pax had access to their luggage, they have to go through security screening as they are non-sterile. YVR problem is they will have to build a domestic connections Center that does not allow pax to get their bags or nix with non-sterile pax.

I have not connected in YUL in over 10 years so I can't speak to their connection set up.

[claytonhh]

Originally Posted by Cage

For YYC new international terminal, all arriving international pax will go to Canada Customs Hall, if the pax Boarding Pass has OSS and the correct bar code, they will follow signs for international connections. At Canada Customs Hall the pax will go to an elevator where their BP will be validated. A short trip up to international connections desk. At the exit to international connections, pax will be at the D&E terminus of the Compact Tranaport System.

For YYZ, there is an existing connections corridor above gates 53-57 that is currently used for domestic to international connections. At node F, there is an existing CBSA primary inspection station to handle International to International and USA to International. This same station can be used to connect International to Donestic if the pax has appropriate OSS indicator on their BP.

For YVR, they have separated their International to USA and International to International connections from the domestic pax flow. international/USA to domestic connections go through normal primary inspection line. Domestic connection passenger drop off their bags with Air Canada (Westjet is not set up to handle domestic connections) and proceed up an elevator to domestic connections Center for security processing. Because pax had access to their luggage, they have to go through security screening as they are non-sterile. YVR problem is they will have to build a domestic connections Center that does not allow pax to get their bags or nix with non-sterile pax.

I have not connected in YUL in over 10 years so I can't speak to their connection set up.

The process you mention above for YYC IFP, thats for international arrival to international or domestic departures? correct?
Whats the process for international arrival to transborder? Is the an in-transit pre clearance PBS checkpoint and USCBP PIL for TB departures?
Also Domestic to international departures is easy due to terminal layout, but how does a domestic connecting passenger get to the transborder departures level? Do they have to exit into the IFP check-in hall and proceed through PBS TB(E) and USCBP?

[Cage]

Originally Posted by claytonhh

The process you mention above for YYC IFP, thats for international arrival to international or domestic departures? correct?
Whats the process for international arrival to transborder? Is the an in-transit pre clearance PBS checkpoint and USCBP PIL for TB departures?
Also Domestic to international departures is easy due to terminal layout, but how does a domestic connecting passenger get to the transborder departures level? Do they have to exit into the IFP check-in hall and proceed through PBS TB(E) and USCBP?

From what I understand (have not seen the detailed drawings), international to USA will also be completed in the connections facility for certain airlines only. Connections on the AC network will be able to use the connections facility. It is probable the WS will also be on the connections Center list. As well I suspect UA to AC single ticket connections will be allowed. Also unsure if other Westjet codeshare flights will be allowed to use the international connections facility. Each airline and each airline combination will have to individually opt into the connections facility program. For airlines not opting into the program, their passengers will have to exit the sterile area and use the regular facilities. Additionally, all split ticket passengers will have to use the regular facilities.

I imagine the set up will be similar to other international connection facilities I have experienced in Europe. International and USA travellers will enter the connections hall from an elevator coming from level one Canada customs hall. Domestic connections will arrive via elevator from the CTS terminus station on level two. Both types of travellers will be presented with options for USCBP or CBSA primary inspection lines. Once through either line up, they will be directed via dedicated elevators to the appropriate terminal area.

The bonus for connecting passengers is that they will not have to go through security and will not have to handle their checked luggage. The confusion for customers will come from the fact only certain airline connections will be allowed and that split ticketing and interline flights will not be allowed to use the connections facility.

For YYC origin pax, the bonus of the new facility is that they will drop off their bags at checkin rather than moving them through US CBP. The draw back for the new terminal is that transborder pax will have to go through preboard security screening first and before seeing a customs officer. This will create a huge bottleneck during the early morning transborder departure bank.

[EdmontonTraveller]

Originally Posted by Cage

For YYC new international terminal, all arriving international pax will go to Canada Customs Hall, if the pax Boarding Pass has OSS and the correct bar code, they will follow signs for international connections. At Canada Customs Hall the pax will go to an elevator where their BP will be validated. A short trip up to international connections desk. At the exit to international connections, pax will be at the D&E terminus of the Compact Tranaport System.

The "problem" in YYZ/YVR is that passengers from certified nations (e.g. EU/US) can and will mix with passengers from non-certified nations prior to separating into connections and Immigration. Granted it's only carry-on materials, which reduces the risk substantially, but it renders the distinction of which nations can originate OSS-pax somewhat moot.

Compare to DXB where everyone getting off a plane goes through security...then proceed to Immigration and bag claim, or onto connections. Let's call that — - all-stop security.

Whether people see this as a significant concern...that's a political question.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by EdmontonTraveller

The "problem" in YYZ/YVR is that passengers from certified nations (e.g. EU/US) can and will mix with passengers from non-certified nations prior to separating into connections and Immigration. Granted it's only carry-on materials, which reduces the risk substantially, but it renders the distinction of which nations can originate OSS-pax somewhat moot.

Compare to DXB where everyone getting off a plane goes through security...then proceed to Immigration and bag claim, or onto connections. Let's call that — - all-stop security.

Whether people see this as a significant concern...that's a political question.

It took me a while but I did finally understand your point about the mixing of OSS and non-OSS passengers is a risk.

However in order for such a terrorist plan to work, it would require impeccable coordination between multiple terrorist cells across two or more countries. This level of coordination has never been accomplished and is fraught with numerous execution risks that it is doubtful any attempt would be successful.

for a successful exploit of the OSS weakness; two travelers would have to launch from separate locations (one location OSS, another location nonOSS and susceptible to contraband incursions), then both travelers would have simultaneous arrival times, followed by exchange of the contraband item at the Canadian connection point, and the OSS compliant traveler continuing onto a second flight to perpetrate their terrorist activity.

Unfortunately and tragically, as demonstrated by today's attack at BRU there are far easier methods of committing an act of terror than exploiting the OSS weakness.

A simple proactive security measure all ready taken by CBSA and Airport security and customer service. On the international arrival corridors there are very few places to sit down and rest. Where there are a few seats, these locations are out in the open and covered by CCTV. For the average traveler, the lack of seating and places to wait before getting to the central customs hall is not noticeable.

I provide an example of my family returning to YYC from MCO two weeks ago. 5 year old falls asleep on the descent into YYC and snores through landing and taxi into the gate. I have to force my kid to get awake in order to walk off the aircraft, down the arrival corridor and to the customs hall. Sure enough there is no place to sit until just before the customs hall where there are 3 seats at the bottom of the long escalator. I pull up the chair while wife gets the 5 year old into PJs in the facilities. In the 5 minutes I hung out at the chairs, at least 3 CBSA and security personnel came by to check on me and ask if would move to primary inspection lanes, this in addition to the commissionaire who was directing traffic.

Same thing happens in YVR. If you can't make it walking through the long arrivals corridor, then have a seat a the designated seating area and some customer service person will come along in a golf cart to offer assistance. Behind the scenes, the golf cart driver was dispatched by the security center that is looking at the CCTV cameras. While billed as a friendly customer assistance initiative, its really a covert security initiative meant to thwart a James Bond style contraband exchange.

[MalcolmTucker]

There isn't/won't be a bathroom before the customs hall? I don't remember in Calgary, but at both Narita and San Francisco there is.

[yyc_engineer]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

There isn't/won't be a bathroom before the customs hall? I don't remember in Calgary, but at both Narita and San Francisco there is.

There are washrooms before entering the customs hall. Both in the current terminal and in the International Terminal.

International flights coming into Calgary are by and large from "safe" countries. The most dangerous stations are probably Montego Bay or the West Coast of Mexico and neither are a hotbed for terrorism.

I honestly don't see the appeal of International -> International transfer zones in airports like Calgary. YVR & YYZ yes, maybe YUL, but the only international connections I see as sensical would be to the US, and in that case pax will be going through preclearance anyways. Aside from serving smaller regional airports in the NorthWest United States (Spokane comes to mind eg. LHR->YYC->GEG) what conceivable realistic International->International connection are there through Calgary? Amsterdam->Cabo? Mazatlan->Tokyo??

[Cage]

Originally Posted by yyc_engineer

I honestly don't see the appeal of International -> International transfer zones in airports like Calgary. YVR & YYZ yes, maybe YUL, but the only international connections I see as sensical would be to the US, and in that case pax will be going through preclearance anyways. Aside from serving smaller regional airports in the NorthWest United States (Spokane comes to mind eg. LHR->YYC->GEG) what conceivable realistic International->International connection are there through Calgary? Amsterdam->Cabo? Mazatlan->Tokyo??

Back in the late 1990's, AC had LAX and SFO flights that connected to LHR and FRA departures. Out of 120 seats on the transborder flights; LAX would see 20-30 pax per day connecting to Europe and SFO would see 10-15 pax.

In the last 10 years the Canadian "petro dollar" and additional customs and security regulations dried up this traffic. With the cheap dollar back we could see a return to the connection traffic. However over the last 10 years YVR and YYZ have significantly expanded their services for international connection pax, so YYC has to compete for this very fluid traffic by offering something better (e.g. international connection center).

[EdmontonTraveller]

Originally Posted by yyc_engineer

I honestly don't see the appeal of International -> International transfer zones in airports like Calgary.

If $$AC < $$DL/UA/AA, then that's all the appeal you need. Connection vs. direct matters little for some.

Not to mention that most travellers will consider how convenient their transfer point is. Smaller is often better. You are building a nice, convenient IFP, right?

For Intl->US connections, I'd suggest it's quicker for non-US/Can citizens to clear CBP in Calgary. But I've been through YYC....

However in order for such a terrorist plan to work, it would require impeccable coordination between multiple terrorist cells across two or more countries. This level of coordination has never been accomplished and is fraught with numerous execution risks that it is doubtful any attempt would be successful.

Preaching to the choir, but I'm not the one who decides acceptable risk for 99.99% of pax, nor was I asked who should be OSS-eligible. When I look at a majority of airports that allow walk-off/walk-on in-transit connections from all sorts of questionable locales, I wonder why OSS needs to be restricted in Canada on security grounds. But solid explanation on security in the area, thanks.

[yyc_engineer]

Originally Posted by EdmontonTraveller

If $$AC < $$DL/UA/AA, then that's all the appeal you need. Connection vs. direct matters little for some.

Not to mention that most travellers will consider how convenient their transfer point is. Smaller is often better. You are building a nice, convenient IFP, right?

For Intl->US connections, I'd suggest it's quicker for non-US/Can citizens to clear CBP in Calgary.

Like I said this only applies to cities that do not have direct air service to Europe or Asia. All the major cities already have direct air service (LAX, SFO, SEA, ORD, IAH, DFW).

Maybe some odd routes like PDX->YYC->FRA on AC where Portland does not have year round service to Frankfurt. Theoretically it could be easier to connect via YYC as opposed to SEA or AMS. Or somebody flying PSP->YYC->AMS on a WS/KLM joint ticket.

That said, if WS wants to really grow their operations they could leverage their existing US service with connections onto Europe. Currently their website does not allow you to book US->UK flights though. (eg. PSP->YYC->LGW)

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see the % of connecting Pax through YYC go up (it's currently at approx 30%, mostly onto domestic connections). INT->US and vice-versa there is a market that can be grown.

I just don't see the market for pure INT->INT through cowtown. Maybe if we get a MEX flight, that has some potential (eg. MEX->YYC->PEK on WS/HU). Once again, that will require cooperation across airlines and coordination of flight schedules.

[yyc_engineer]

Originally Posted by EdmontonTraveller

If $$AC < $$DL/UA/AA, then that's all the appeal you need. Connection vs. direct matters little for some.

One of the reasons this works for YYZ, and to a lesser extent YUL and YVR, is because AC has their own metal flying to multiple cities in the US on multiple fequencies througout the day. (eg. YYZ/YUL -> LGA/EWR) and are able to sell tickets LGA->YYZ->LHR/FRA/DEL/ZRH etc. etc.

It becomes more difficult in the case of Calgary where AC has fewer "feeder" flights (if you want to call them that) on their own metal into the US. While they are JV partners, UA will never let AC undercut them on their own metal (eg. UA DEN->YYC connecting to AC YYC->LHR vs. UA DEN->EWR/ORD/IAD->LHR) so AC pretty much has to rely on their own metal to "feed" their rock bottom cheap flights to Europe & Asia (Tokyo).

And even then all they can relaistically capture is the cheap fares, as any premium passenger from the US (LAX, PHX, LAS, etc. etc.) would fly direct to Europe from their own airport. Also, if AC sells super cheap tickets US->YYC->NRT/LHR/FRA they are losing out on selling seats from YYC/YEG/SASK->NRT/LHR/FRA which can command a higher fare. Plus they would also lose the O/D seat from YYC-> US which now has to be sold to the connecting US pax for "free".

I would be really, really interested to see the PDEW from USA->YYC->Europe/Tokyo on AC or UA/AC. It's days like this the data analyst nerd in me wishes I worked for revenue management at AC or WS.

But, yes, WS has some growth potential from their US stations to Europe thru YYC/YVR/YYZ and even YEG.

[MrBigStuff]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

There isn't/won't be a bathroom before the customs hall? I don't remember in Calgary, but at both Narita and San Francisco there is.

Then all is said and done - will the long walk from the Int'l arrival gates to the customs clearance area be gone??? Not nice for the mobility challenged.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by MrBigStuff

Then all is said and done - will the long walk from the Int'l arrival gates to the customs clearance area be gone??? Not nice for the mobility challenged.

The mobility challenged always have the option to be pushed on a wheelchair. For the rest MrBig&Obese types, a little walking would do you good!