Calgary International Airport II

[RyLucky]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Not through the terminal, but a station that provides through travel, sort of like Sunshine Village's Goat's Eye Station. A marginally cheaper option would be something like Revelostoke's Mid Mountain station where you have to walk between the two lines.

If you set it up well, the turn facilities could even be stations at a rental car/remote parking lot, though that would need to be planned for really soon, as it would have to be perfectly aligned with the Airport Trail tunnel. The Green Line Station would end up south of the T&T super market instead of on Country Hills Rd (I guess on the south side of the station). A stop on the CPR alignment in Nose Creek for whatever may be built in the future could be added at a later point (shouldn't take more than a few months of shutdown time). Nose Creek would probably make sense to move Greyhound to as well.

definitely an option to explore.

[MalcolmTucker]

Airports are special though. Besides the huge catchment and dispersed destinations, people might complain about coming to pick one-another up, but it is a social experience to mark departure or arrival. The Vancouver modal share report from maybe just before or soon after the Olympics had an explanation of this and how they didn't expect this to change.

Unless you charge people to use the terminal roads it won't change. Even in Tokyo with toll roads there was a steady stream of friends and family cars at the terminal, and that is with 4 or 5 train options.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

By the time it actually happens, we will have many more passengers than today. I'm not sure why anyone would hope to never have airport-rapid transit access.

My problem with airport rapid transit access is primarily with the way the responsible city or other level of government bamboozles the airport into paying for an under used and not needed service. The airport pays more than its share of the rapid transit service, and/or also has to reduce its expected revenue source from ground transportation. In return, the responsible government agrees to give a "social license" for the airport's continued existence or some expansion initiative.

To use Calgary as a hypothetical example; the councillors grilling the airport over noise complaints would probably shut up if the airport agreed to fund $300 million into the green line. However at the end of the day, I would get stuck with an extra $5-10 AIF to pay for the airport's contribution to the green line.

I would agree that the City doesn't get the airport and the airport doesn't get the City. This is the route cause of a lot of differences of opinion between the airport and city. Examples related to City of Calgary and Calgary airport:
(1) Calgary Transit wants preferential access to the airport for no costs whereas every other form of transportation must pay a concession recovery fee for airport access. If Air Canada wants custom designed checkin counters, they pay for the construction and for the terminal space lease. All retailers pay for their lease and return a portion of revenues back to the airport. Airport shuttles pay a fee to get access to airport's bus terminal. However Calgary Transit is under the impression that because they exist for the greater good, these fees should be reduced or eliminated.
(2) The airport doesn't do anything unless there are numerous studies pointing to increased traffic and increased airport revenue. Often the City does things for political or social reasons that don't make financial sense. The airport will look to the city to provide guarantees that any rapid transit service will be utilized.
(3) The airport intentionally over builds to meet peak demand, typically aiports plan to build additional capacity when peak hour utilization reaches 80% capacity. The city views meeting the needs of peak transportation demand as lost opportunity to alter public travel patterns onto mass transit. In short overcapacity road gridlock puts bums into transit seats. Discussion over airport trail interchanges is a prime example of the city and airport differences. The airport requires an interchange well before the Roads department considers an interchange a desirable solution.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by RyLucky

but probably for a $100-200M spur onto a project that will already be seamlessly integrated into CT's network. Like I said, not in 2016, but the cost/benefit ratio decreases every year.

In order to keep cost of airport transit minimal and the benefit maximal, I think the Green Line has a major role to play.

A spur would have at least 4 major grade separations and be 5.5 km long minimum with a strong likelihood of an elevated station. Current dollars I'd say $500 million would be on the southside, plus a major capacity constraint on Greenline service north of airport trail.

[Surrealplaces]

That's probably about the right amount. Melbourne which is around 30Mil is getting a rail link, but not without controversy, and a cost of around $10 Billion.
Surprisingly though Perth and Brisbane have a rail link.

Originally Posted by Cage

I hope LRT never comes to YYC. At least not until the airport gets to 40-50 million pax per year.

Union-Pearson Express is a flop, and the recent fare changes will not stem the red ink from flowing. Actually the opposite will happen, a few more riders but much harder time for the fare box to cover operating expenses.

YVR line is somewhat successful from the passenger perspective, but the airport paid for 1/4 of the cost of the entire Canada line. the airport's contribution to Canada line could have paid for expanded terminal facilities, and redevelopment of concourses A and B, and the much need north-south taxiway, and still left a few dollars in the bank account.

JFK Air Train connection to Jamaica station was very expensive, it's often less expensive to take taxi if there are three travelers.

Newark Air Train connection works from cost and convenience perspective, however the Air Train continuously requires massive expenditures for maintenance, makes the line unprofitable to the point where PANYNJ wants to replace the line or remove it entirely.

On the plus side it appears the Denver airport commuter rail line is not paid for by the airport, rather civic expenses an P3 are used to pay for the rail line. The rail line has yet to open so traffic figures cannot be analyzed. I hope everything works out for Denver, but at least with a full fledged P3 the taxpayer and airport are not taking all the risk.

SFO BART line appears to one of the few sucesses in North American airport rail connections.

[ggopher]

As a traveller from Calgary. If I was going to the airport I would rather pay $50 to park at the airport. Then pay for public transit. Especially if i have luggage and/or multiple travellers.

If I was a tourist coming to Calgary again you have to be travelling light and solo for transit to make sense.

I have been to Vancouver many times and the sky train is awesome. If you are travelling light and if your hotel is located very close to the stations downtown. But actually a cab is not that much more money. And hauling luggage even a few blocks —.

As most everyone has stated. Transit to the airport would be awesome. But it is not required, and it is not worth $300 million.

[jeffwhit]

Originally Posted by ggopher

As a traveller from Calgary. If I was going to the airport I would rather pay $50 to park at the airport. Then pay for public transit. Especially if i have luggage and/or multiple travellers.

If I was a tourist coming to Calgary again you have to be travelling light and solo for transit to make sense.

....

As most everyone has stated. Transit to the airport would be awesome. But it is not required, and it is not worth $300 million.

There are 24000+ employees at YYC, and a huge amount of development to the north. Transit to the airport isn't just for travelers, it's a major employment node.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by jeffwhit

There are 24000+ employees at YYC, and a huge amount of development to the north. Transit to the airport isn't just for travelers, it's a major employment node.

I wouldn't call it a node. It is almost like a bicycle wheel, empty in the centre with 24,000 people around the outside. Really hard to service employees well.

[jeffwhit]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

I wouldn't call it a node. It is almost like a bicycle wheel, empty in the centre with 24,000 people around the outside. Really hard to service employees well.

Wouldn't a couple bus loops from an LRT station do the trick, honestly?

[People.talking]

Info on airport transit http://globalnews.ca/news/97005/calgary-transit-plans-airport-express-buses-future-tramway/
City council also released a 30 "wish list" for Calgary Transit a few years back that stats that there will be a Airport rail extension from Saddletowne to the Airport by the year 2040

[MalcolmTucker]

Here is the road and transit network:


Only Stoney 2 Industrial would be better served by a hypothetical future airport station.

[Johnny Aussie]

Northern Air struggling?

Ever since the launch of flights from YYC to Whitecourt and Peace River, Northern Air has been widdling away. YYC and YEG flights to/from YPE have been amalgamated and YZU down to just two weekly flights... Both on Tuesdays (?).

http://www.flynorthernair.com/index/calgary

[Johnny Aussie]

Air Transat is adding a once weekly YVR-YYC-YYZ rotation each way for the summer.

http://airlineroute.net/2016/03/11/ts-yycyyz-may16/

Flights will operate eastbound on Mondays and westbound on Tuesdays.

[casper]

Originally Posted by jeffwhit

Wouldn't a couple bus loops from an LRT station do the trick, honestly?

I would expect the YYC terminal to be a major employment hub. Especially considering it is a pilot and flight attendant base for WestJet. I believe Jazz also has a base there. Then add all the ground staff from the airlines and the retailers.

[jeffwhit]

Originally Posted by casper

I would expect the YYC terminal to be a major employment hub. Especially considering it is a pilot and flight attendant base for WestJet. I believe Jazz also has a base there. Then add all the ground staff from the airlines and the retailers.

Exactly. Everyone who is critical of the idea of LRT to the airport tends to only look at it from the traveler's point of view, or their own.

[Bunagaya]

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

That's probably about the right amount. Melbourne which is around 30Mil is getting a rail link, but not without controversy, and a cost of around $10 Billion.
Surprisingly though Perth and Brisbane have a rail link.

Melbourne is still some time off getting an airport rail link. The $10 billion figure you have is for the 'metro' rail tunnel.

[Blader]

An LRT link costs money - a lot of money. I've taken the previous bus from the Whitehorn station to the airport. It snaked through industrial areas. No frequency.
The 100 from Westwinds is a day and night improvement. Mostly airport workers with some travelers. It has a consistent 20 minute schedule and ridership keeps improving. Look at the debacle in Toronto where they halved the fee because of poor ridership. It'll be a very long while for an LRT spur to the airport to be viable.
It competes with cabs and personal pickups. The numbers are not good enough. You can argue that an LRT spur would change the equation. I doubt it.The bus can be as fast as the spur at a fraction of the cost.

[PPAR]

Vancouver used to have a committed bus service. Nice vehicles, with distinctive livery and dedicated luggage capacity and excellent frequency to 4 or 5 stops in the core.
Calgary should probably start with this type of service before LRT is considered.

[Blader]

If my understanding is correct one would have to take a bus to the spur. Why not then go direct to an LRT station?

[casper]

Originally Posted by PPAR

Vancouver used to have a committed bus service. Nice vehicles, with distinctive livery and dedicated luggage capacity and excellent frequency to 4 or 5 stops in the core.
Calgary should probably start with this type of service before LRT is considered.

Calgary already has a transit operated premium bus service between the airport and downtown. Costs a couple of extra bucks when leaving the airport and is the same price going to the airport. It includes luggage racks. The odd time I have used it has been around rush hour and it has been crowded leaving downtown.