Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 4

[s.p.hansen]

So there's an instagram for my flag now and there are going to be stickers printed out and posted around downtown and instgramed. But I'm not running it because, posting stickers around town is, like, technically vandalism. But you should totally follow it. And if you need stickers, you know, maybe message me and maybe I know how to help you get some...

https://www.instagram.com/asaltlakecityflag/

[UTPlanner]

I for one am very much against developing public open space downtown. There are so many underutilized and undeveloped areas in and around downtown that to me it makes absolutely no sense. Once open space is developed it's gone forever. The downtown already is lacking in open space when compared to similar western cities, the new Downtown Master Plan details it further. The City Council has been working hard to find additional space downtown to develop as open space.

I do think that Washington Square and Library Square need to be programmed better to attract a more diverse group of people. I also know that more high density residential development in the neighborhood would bring in more people that would likely better utilize the space.

I know I'm not alone. If you recall, the PSB was once proposed for the east side of Library Square and that created a nightmare for Mayor Becker when the public went nuts. No local politician wants to be the man or woman who sold a city park.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by UTPlanner

I know I'm not alone. If you recall, the PSB was once proposed for the east side of Library Square and that created a nightmare for Mayor Becker when the public went nuts. No local politician wants to be the man or woman who sold a city park.

You're in majority. And the majority is doing it wrong. Add green-space or open-space to get applause. I have a book on urban planning that showcases the Salt Lake City and County Building as a failure in urban planning based on its placement in the center of the block. It was about how cities with good urban development avoid Starchitecture placement.


Salt Lake City Green-space: An Album of Suburban Life









I'm gonna just keep adding to this over time

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

We also surrounded the Library and the new Public Safety Building in seas of plaza and green space. We seem to have this obsession with framing large buildings with lots of low density.

The original plan for the Library block was to have a mixed-use development on the east half of the block with retail, office and housing. Deedee Corradini was mayor and she was a huge proponent of the mixed-use portion of the block. Then Rocky Anderson was elected and he demanded that the rest of the block be left as open space.
I wrote a ton of letters to the editor, the mayor, city council, etc., against leaving it as open space, to no avail. Rocky was a disaster as mayor.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Gallivan was actually built in the 80's around the same time as the One Utah/Chase building, well before American Stores/Wells Fargo.

Gallivan was constructed from '92-'93, opened early in '93. One Utah Center was constructed from '89-'91, opening in '91. My father was a construction foreman on OUC.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

No one is arguing against breaking up blocks from the inside; that's an urgent need for the City. I heard that Gallivan was part of a design review, is that true? Was it for One Utah Center instead of the Wells Fargo Building?

A civil plaza had been planned for that block for decades.

[Stenar]

I cannot support developing anything further on Washington Square, but I do support the other locations.

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

[B]
Based on these examples I think the areas in red on this next pic of the Salt Lake City civic campus should be developed along the street in question.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

I've shown how much larger cities have smaller civic space and they are, quite frankly, much better at putting on events and getting a turn out of these events. We have the widest streets and tons of space as is, way more than Seattle or San Francisco. We have Liberty Park. What about the city claiming this civic space as park space is sacred to you? It's just a construct. Mohamed didn't even ascend from this spot. It seems very easy to re-imagine.

You've shown no such thing. The main, uninterrupted area of Denver's civic space is about 1,260 feet by 485 feet.
The main uninterrupted area of San Francisco's civic plaza is approximately 600x400 feet.
Washington Square is about 650x650, however, the City-County Building cuts it in half and most events don't use the entire block. The main, uninterrupted area of SLC's plaza, including 200 E, is only about 650x350. Then there are a bunch of other disjointed spaces that can be used, but they're not large and uninterrupted like the other two cities.

[s.p.hansen]

As always Stenar, I appreciate you setting the record straight.

Originally Posted by Stenar

You've shown no such thing. The main, uninterrupted area of Denver's civic space is about 1,260 feet by 485 feet.
The main uninterrupted area of San Francisco's civic plaza is approximately 600x400 feet.
Washington Square is about 650x650, however, the City-County Building cuts it in half and most events don't use the entire block. The main, uninterrupted area of SLC's plaza, including 200 E, is only about 650x350. Then there are a bunch of other disjointed spaces that can be used, but they're not large and uninterrupted like the other two cities.

The City and County Building does not form a sufficient enough border to cut off the space or kill the flow. On the contrary, the one good thing about the location of the building is that it actually makes it more interesting to explore and helps segment these large events. At pride you can have kareoke on one side and not hear it one the other where they have booths.

The building in the middle attracts the most amount of activity. The value of continuous space vs interesting space is more important to think about. The corners of the City and County Building are traditionally dead spaces at these events because they are the least interesting.

[jedikermit]

Originally Posted by Scraperdude801

I am confused about what you are proposing for the block south of the library. The green is the Utah State Office of Education, where I work.

Yeah, I'm there all the time...I'd love to see that building demolished and rebuilt so it's more usable. There are so many maintenance and structural things wrong with that building; and building it so it can be used as a hub for say, education, would be great. I'd love to be able to have meetings there that fit more than ten people around a table (aside from the two main board rooms on the first floor), or have USOE conduct trainings and workshops there instead of having USOE events that are housed in other districts offices (which also aren't built to do that, and aren't as central as SLC).

But I don't want it to move. Because Madeleines is right there.

[Future Mayor]

Thank you for the exact dates on the Gallivan Center, I was a couple of years off, but I knew it was built much closer to the time of One Utah than Wells Fargo.

Thank you for seconding my post about Denver and it's huge swath of open space. As I pointed out, our Civic Blocks are substantially more developed than Denver's.

I still don't understand or get the point of the new flag design. Besides the explanation that you gave, it does absolutely nothing to define or represent SLC. Sorry, but I think the stripe with squares and circles is the flag that should get the LOL.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Wasatch Wasteland

Y'all should check out the airport page. Some VERY new exciting info...

Posted on the Airport Thread also...Here's an interesting little on topic article in the L.A. Times from this morning regarding Americas ten most well liked airports.

...Most travelers don't have a choice of which airport to fly in or out of because there may be only one option. Still, here are the top 10 large airports that get it right.

Full Article : http://www.latimes.com/travel/california/la-trb-airports-jd-powers-20151215-story.html

1. Portland

2. Tampa, Fla. (TPA)

3. Las Vegas (LAS)

4. Orlando (MCO)

5. Salt Lake City (SLC)

6. Denver (DEN)

7. San Diego (SAN)

8. Atlanta (ATL)

9. Detroit (DTW)

10. Phoenix (PHX)

.

[UTPlanner]

I'm sorry s.p.hansen but showing pictures of large park strips in East Downtown cannot compare with the potential loss of large swaths of historic public open space. The community needs gathering places. They need places of beauty. A city is more than just buildings. The Downtown area will continue to grow and the density will come. Once Downtown has 20k or 30k or 40k residents I think we will see that maintaining Washington and Library Squares untouched will be looked at as a very wise decision by future residents.

Speaking of development on city properties. The former PSB and its surrounding properties had an RFP out seeking bids to redevelop the PSB and develop the areas around it. I believe 3 or 4 parties submitted bids. I'm looking forward to seeing who the committee chooses. Also, on the current PSB lot the city owns some significant parcels and talk about potentially developing them as mixed use projects is moving forward very quickly.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I still don't understand or get the point of the new flag design. Besides the explanation that you gave, it does absolutely nothing to define or represent SLC. Sorry, but I think the stripe with squares and circles is the flag that should get the LOL.

Our current flag for the city isn't a good flag. No one wants to fly it or put it around town. My flag is like an older flag where symbols and colors are used vs spelling out your city in letters or using mountains. And I appreciate your feedback FM.

My flag is still better than the one we have.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by UTPlanner

I'm sorry s.p.hansen but showing pictures of large park strips in East Downtown cannot compare with the potential loss of large swaths of historic public open space. The community needs gathering places. They need places of beauty. A city is more than just buildings. The Downtown area will continue to grow and the density will come. Once Downtown has 20k or 30k or 40k residents I think we will see that maintaining Washington and Library Squares untouched will be looked at as a very wise decision by future residents.

Speaking of development on city properties. The former PSB and its surrounding properties had an RFP out seeking bids to redevelop the PSB and develop the areas around it. I believe 3 or 4 parties submitted bids. I'm looking forward to seeing who the committee chooses. Also, on the current PSB lot the city owns some significant parcels and talk about potentially developing them as mixed use projects is moving forward very quickly.

I can give you guys Washington Square because I've noted it's at the tip of our lawn addiction. You can do a better job of fixing the corners.

But all this other green space and then proposed green space... Not only do we have more than enough, this quest to get more is more indicative of an addiction than prudence. It's hard for me to be part of a one man intervention, but it needs to be done.

[Liberty Wellsian]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

I can give you guys Washington Square because I've noted it's at the tip of our lawn addiction. You can do a better job of fixing the corners.

But all this other green space and then proposed green space... Not only do we have more than enough, this quest to get more is more indicative of an addiction than prudence. It's hard for me to be part of a one man intervention, but it needs to be done.

Open space leads to density. People want to be near open spaces and those spaces eat up land that otherwise would be a subdivision. Sugarhouse is a perfect example. Sugarhouse park is huge and only 3 blocks from Freemont park which is also sizeable. These two parks have pushed density in the core of sugarhouse not detracted from it.

[s.p.hansen]

Originally Posted by Liberty Wellsian

Open space leads to density.

I'm sorry but that is not true. Big cities created big parks as a reaction to density. The parks followed density. Central Park involved evictions and demolitions. This idea that more green space equals density is from Sim City and not real life. I'm sorry. I feel like a messenger from the future telling you all this and this future message is from the 1970s.

And that message is this. Parks don't act on their surrounding neighborhood, the surrounding neighborhood acts on the park. Which means your theory is grabage. If a park is put in a low pedestrian area it will not only do nothing, it will further bring down the vibrancy of the area and create higher crime.

Everyone should read chapter 5 of The Death and Life of Great American Cities. It's where this whole idea comes from. neighborhoods act on parks and these other points of place making.

Parks:

1. Cannot be too common within a neighborhood

2. Need “intricacy,” or variety in landscaping, topography and use

3. A Center — for small parks that may be nearly the entire area — which should be the climax of the park experience

4. Sun

5. Diverse types of surrounding buildings

Urban planning should be more about place making than creating green loops.




I may disagree with future mayor, but at least he gets that the way you fix this liability that is a park is by improving the urban life surrounding it.

[Scraperdude801]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I was simply showing potential large development or redevelopment directly facing the "Civic Space" and along 4th South that S.P. had mentioned, that started this dialoque. I actually like that strip of retail where the bail bonds and Cannellas is located, it could be drastically improved with just a new tenant in place of the Bail Bonds.

I also really like that strip where Canellas, Les Madelines, e, the lofts, etc. Those are to the west of the Utah State Office of Education. The bail bonds building is to the East, and isn't anything to write home about. It's a dingy one story building that doesn't generate foot traffic.

[DCRes]

Originally Posted by asies1981

Post on the interim plans for the Arrow Press site.

It's funny, the proposals in this article are normally something we would all be going nuts excited about, but there haven't really been any comments about it. I personally don't see Priskos pulling off a large development like the one he is proposing. I would be happy to be wrong, I guess we will see.

I also heard that the APS plaza is going to be used as outdoor convention space for the upcoming OR show in January.

[airhero]

Originally Posted by s.p.hansen

I may disagree with future mayor, but at least he gets that the way you fix this liability that is a park is by improving the urban life surrounding it.

I think most of us get that. What we don't get is putting a building on every corner of Washington Square. It's a weird idea.