How do we fix Canada's "population void"?

[Dado]

Originally Posted by freeweed

I've lived in Shield country. Some parts of the town actually have soil, and some parts were on solid bedrock. It was quite a bit more expensive to build on the bedrock. Basically only the rich did it because it made the cost of an average house too expensive. Just from that alone, there are some serious cost impediments. And this was just for housing. Roads, commercial buildings, water treatment... basically anything that needs to go on or in the ground becomes much more expensive.

It's not insurmountable, no - but watch a new subdivision being built sometime. Digging in the dirt to put in a foundation is trivial. Blasting huge amounts of granite (multiply this by thousands of lots)... it's a lot more work. Levelling ground is insanely expensive.

You know you don't need to do any of this if you're building on rock... because you're building on rock. The entire reason for digging in foundations in soil is to get below the frostline because there's nothing solid to build on. That problem doesn't exist on bedrock. Footings, slabs-on-grade and piers would all be viable options. In some areas around Ottawa where there are periodic outcrops of Shield amidst arable soils, you can see that some settlers built there farmsteads - houses, barns and all - on those outcrops because they were solid (and otherwise useless), so it's not like we don't have precedent for it.

For putting in services, sure, you'll probably need to blast a bit, but for building foundations? Sorry, no. People who do that don't know what they're doing, or more to the point, why they're doing it.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by Jamaican-Phoenix

1. I envy that you have a Japanese wife. I made the mistake of letting a great Japanese gal get away from me.

Does your wife have a single sister?

I already called Dibs.

Also, I find with the pride thing, a lot of what is stereotypically Canadian I have trouble taking pride in or find downright embarrassing. If we weren't se self-defeating and started pioneering in 🞵🞵🞵🞵 again we'd have a lot more to be proud of. There has been a severe "Can't do" attitude in this country since the late 50s early 60s that we haven't been able to shake.

I don't know how many people on the forum have actually read a lot of oldschool literature. But even look at 2 books you surely would have encountered in highschool: 1984 and 20 000 Leagues Under the Sea. Stereotypical Canada and Canadian in both those books was a rough place to be, with Canadians being hard working, loud, rambunctious, gritty people. Compare that stereotype which has it's roots in 200 years of history to the stereotypical Canadian of the last 50. Very big change.

[armorand93]

Fixing the void?

- Educate the Aboriginal populations (fastest growing) AND lift them out of poverty
- Make the rest of us start working harder (more hard work = more $$$ = more financial support for a child)
- Encourage child conception?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by reidjr

No i would not say easily you have to look at the whole picture and not just land area.

Ontario

Social Programs
Many parts of ontario social programs are over loaded as it is now you add another 15-20 million people thats would make thigns far far worse.

Hospitals
Look at places such as toronto and ottawa waits in many hospitals for treatment are long adding millions of people would increase this probleam big time.

Jobs
Would there be enough jobs in ontario i am not sure if there would be if add 15-20 million more people.

Farm Land
You would be getting rid of alot of farm land for housing etc this i think could have a bad impact.

Now with all that said i am not aginst this idea of adding more people but they can't add 15-20 million in ontario with out fixing our social programs first etc.

All of those grow as a population grows. It's absurd that people are arguing that Canada can't support 100,000,000 people when Germany supports 82 million in an area one third the size of BC.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by isaidso

All of those grow as a population grows. It's absurd that people are arguing that Canada can't support 100,000,000 people when Germany supports 82 million in an area one third the size of BC.

If your going to have a major population boost you have to have the social prgrams fixed you have to make sure you have atleas some job you aslo have to make sure roads and housing is all able to handle that amount of people.If we expnadon with out fixing any of the issues first were going to be in major trouble and that will not benfit anyone canada or people wanting to come here.

[Canadian Mind]

A lot of people seem to miss a big point regarding the social services provided, job availability, etc.

- As the population grows, so does the demand for goods and services. This leads to more jobs to provide said services, or produce said goods (assuming we don't keep outsourcing jobs).

- As our population and domestic industries grow, our ability to compete internationally grows too (economic of scale). This will also lead to more jobs, generally higher paying.

- As the employed population grows, so does the tax base, leading to more tax revenues for larger or more diverse social programs.

Of course, you can't instantly drop an extra 65 000 000 people into our country and expect things to pop up overnight. Population growth must be restrained in such a fashion that, while there is growth, there isn't so much growth that it puts our social support networks into a position that they can't keep up with population growth. An example would be if our population jumps 10% every year for the next 10 years, but we can only provide enough health services for 5% sustained growth.

And for those that are of the opinion that our social services are already beyond capacity, we aren't going to shrink our way back within capacity. As the population gets older, the number of people using the system is going to grow every year while the working class taxpayers who support it are going to keep shrinking. The only practical solution is to grow our way out of the economic and social mess we're in, learn the mistakes of our past, and of countries like Japan, and maintain a more even population age distribution.

[reidjr]

Originally Posted by Canadian Mind

A lot of people seem to miss a big point regarding the social services provided, job availability, etc.

- As the population grows, so does the demand for goods and services. This leads to more jobs to provide said services, or produce said goods (assuming we don't keep outsourcing jobs).

- As our population and domestic industries grow, our ability to compete internationally grows too (economic of scale). This will also lead to more jobs, generally higher paying.

- As the employed population grows, so does the tax base, leading to more tax revenues for larger or more diverse social programs.

Of course, you can't instantly drop an extra 65 000 000 people into our country and expect things to pop up overnight. Population growth must be restrained in such a fashion that, while there is growth, there isn't so much growth that it puts our social support networks into a position that they can't keep up with population growth. An example would be if our population jumps 10% every year for the next 10 years, but we can only provide enough health services for 5% sustained growth.

And for those that are of the opinion that our social services are already beyond capacity, we aren't going to shrink our way back within capacity. As the population gets older, the number of people using the system is going to grow every year while the working class taxpayers who support it are going to keep shrinking. The only practical solution is to grow our way out of the economic and social mess we're in, learn the mistakes of our past, and of countries like Japan, and maintain a more even population age distribution.

If you expand slow that is one thing and very well could work my point is if you add 60-70 million people in a very short period the system could have some issues.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by reidjr

If you expand slow that is one thing and very well could work my point is if you add 60-70 million people in a very short period the system could have some issues.

I think that would be counter-productive, especially if all the growth is 20-40 year old immigrants. I'd be like the baby boom, but worse, and without all the fun that's involved.

I'd be hoping for something like 2.5 kids per mother born, and 500 000 to 1 000 000 immigrants per year for the next 25 years, or until we're in the 75 000 000 - 125 000 000 range.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by reidjr

If your going to have a major population boost you have to have the social prgrams fixed you have to make sure you have atleas some job you aslo have to make sure roads and housing is all able to handle that amount of people.If we expnadon with out fixing any of the issues first were going to be in major trouble and that will not benfit anyone canada or people wanting to come here.

All of those things are a given. Infrastructure, services, GDP expand in conjunction with the population growth. Wasn't that assumed?

[bobdabuilder]

First off I really believe that Northern Ontario should be its own province. Besides that Ontario needs to develop the "Ring of Fire" there are more 100 000 jobs just waiting to be had. Mining companies need to stop importing the knowledge workers. I had the privileged to visit Rouyan-Noranda this summer and it was such a vibrant town compared to neighbouring towns in Northern Ontario. I learned that many of the knowledge workers in the Northern Ontario mines are commuting between Toronto and the mines. Aswell the mining companies need to move more of their offices to the northern communities where their mines are. This entire industry is Toronto centric which is driven by the banks. Northern Ontario has much to offer but as long as the area is controlled by Toronto it will be a second thought. There needs to be better infrastructure. The highways have finally been expanded to four lanes up to Sudbury and North Bay but if you have ever traveled north of Sault Ste Marie outside of the summer months it is barren. Gas is hard to find, towns shut down at 6 o'clock try to find lodging or food. I ate a Mac's one night. The lodging is substandard, I stayed at one of the worst places ever in Marathon. Services are sparse try to get a haircut on a Saturday in Long Lac. Nobody is traveling through these communities other than in the summer. That's why Thunder Bay has Ontario's third busiest airport. The north shore of Lake Superior is probably one of the most beautiful drives in Canada but not many people know this because of the lack of infrastructure in this part of the country. There is so much opportunity for tourism from Toronto along Hwy17 and an untapped market for Montreal along Hwy 11. Much of the tourism opportunity west of Thunder Bay comes from Chicago, Wisconsin, Minnesota and Winnipeg. There is much need for entrepreneurship in the north but they consistently look to government for growth by voting in NDP politicians who sit on the outside of government. My knowledge of people in this region is not of hard working on the whole though there are many great hard working people who live there they are the exception not the rule. For the most part you work for the government, the resource industry or on the dole. Northern Ontario is my favourite place in the world and I'd love to and one day will live in this part of the world once I can afford a proper piece of land. I have traveled throughout the region and love it. There are challenges but visiting this area is well worth it and I would recommend it to anyone in search of adventure. Sadly Highway book store in Colbalt shut down but check out the general store in Pancake Bay, Sleeping Giant Park, Science North grab a chicken sandwich at Deluxe, fish some sturgeon in Lake-of-the-Woods or I personally can't get enough of North Bay Greco's pizza anyone.

[TallBob]

Jobs (other than the O&G sector) and Affordable Housing would be a good incentive! Also, more and better infrastructure to link cities and towns in more remote areas!

[ssiguy]

I agree Northern Ontario is beautiful but why do you think people don't move there.

There are certainly job opportunities and professional vacancies that they can't find people to fill. I have my own views but I'm first curious as to why you think people don't move to Northern Ontario?

[Taeolas]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I agree Northern Ontario is beautiful but why do you think people don't move there.

There are certainly job opportunities and professional vacancies that they can't find people to fill. I have my own views but I'm first curious as to why you think people don't move to Northern Ontario?

I'm sure there are many reasons why (and since I've never been through there I can't really give many); but I wonder if one reason might be a lack of national focus.

If it was its own province with say Thunder Bay as its Capital, then NOON would get mentioned more often; it would become its own entity in the National consciousness. People would be learning of it as a Province in school and learning specifically what it has to offer and so forth. Plus any provincial division map of Canada would now be showing it by itself, with a Star over Thunder Bay. As a province it becomes a distinct entity in the National subconscious.

As it is right now, it is absolutely dwarfed by Southern Ontario/Toronto/Golden Horseshoe/Ottawa and everything around them. It never gets any focus since all eyes are to the south. When people think of moving to Ontario, they usually think of moving to those Urban centres. Hell, I suspect a lot of people have no real concept of just how big NOON is; they envision it as just a chunk of land between Toronto and Manitoba that you get through quick.

So basically, my own feel is that people don't think to move up there, because it isn't really seen as a destination; people don't see it separate from the Toronto Megalopolis, and ultimately never consider it.

[urbandreamer]

The real problem with NOON is isolation. Once you've experienced what the GTA offers it's hard to move deep into the woods of Northern Ontario. If you want a quiet retreat away from the big city, rural Milton is a mere 30 minutes from downtown Toronto.

[Horus]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

The real problem with NOON is isolation. Once you've experienced what the GTA offers it's hard to move deep into the woods of Northern Ontario. If you want a quiet retreat away from the big city, rural Milton is a mere 30 minutes from downtown Toronto.

Love that peaceful, idyllic Milton countryside.

[urbandreamer]

^You are very very wrong. This is the entrance to the rural Milton I speak of: homes surrounding areas like Rattle Snake Point/Appleby Line, Twiss Rd, between First and Sixth Line Nassagaweya from Derry Road up to 30 Side Road: absolute driver's paradise if you're into exploring the best rural farmland within 30-40 minutes of Bay Street.

[flar]

Or go a little further and check out Mount Nemo. I used to love exploring that area.

[flar]

As to the original question, I don't see the problem. Most of Canada is uninhabitable, and I like having a small population. That's a big reason we don't have huge social problems like other countries.

[Pavlov]

Originally Posted by urbandreamer

^You are very very wrong. This is the entrance to the rural Milton I speak of: homes surrounding areas like Rattle Snake Point/Appleby Line, Twiss Rd, between First and Sixth Line Nassagaweya from Derry Road up to 30 Side Road: absolute driver's paradise if you're into exploring the best rural farmland within 30-40 minutes of Bay Street.

Milton is 30-40 minutes from Bay Street (a) between 3:30 am and 5:00 am; or (b) by helicopter.

[TorontoDrew]

It would be pointless to increase the population in that area where rural land use is the primary function of the region. Also people tend to want to live near the coasts and other major urban centres.

Just take a look at this map of the U.S.

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