HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #81  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2011, 8:11 PM
Blitz's Avatar
Blitz Blitz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Windsor, Ontario
Posts: 4,634
The physical geography of Ontario is incredibly diverse. I remember being shocked the first time I took the road between Thunder Bay and Sault Ste Marie...I couldn't believe I was in my own province. It's so different from the part of Ontario that I know (which is basically Indiana with Tim Hortons).
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #82  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2011, 9:29 PM
freeweed's Avatar
freeweed freeweed is offline
Home of Hyperchange
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dynamic City, Alberta
Posts: 17,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
The physical geography of Ontario is incredibly diverse. I remember being shocked the first time I took the road between Thunder Bay and Sault Ste Marie...I couldn't believe I was in my own province. It's so different from the part of Ontario that I know (which is basically Indiana with Tim Hortons).
It helps that the province is 18 million km wide. I had the opposite experience... growing up I basically understood the country to be (from west to east) coast, then mountains, then prairie, then shield, then the coast. My first view of southern Ontario was a complete surprise.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #83  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2011, 9:50 PM
jmt18325's Avatar
jmt18325 jmt18325 is offline
Heart of the Continent
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Winnipeg
Posts: 7,286
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
It helps that the province is 18 million km wide.
Ontario is bigger than I thought.....
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #84  
Old Posted Jul 5, 2011, 11:24 PM
vid's Avatar
vid vid is offline
I am a typical
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Thunder Bay
Posts: 39,065
It sure feels that big sometimes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #85  
Old Posted Jul 6, 2011, 1:45 AM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is online now
Touching grass everyday.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 51,768
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitz View Post
It's so different from the part of Ontario that I know (which is basically Indiana with Tim Hortons).
Quoted for truth.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #86  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2011, 4:54 AM
Dado's Avatar
Dado Dado is offline
National Capital Region
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Ottawa, Canada
Posts: 2,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremy_haak View Post
I'm not sure I really see the problem here. It's easy to look at a map like that and be mystified about why there's a big hole there where people could be living and building cities etc. and imagine that this requires some sort of solution. That giant hole is called the Canadian Shield and people don't live there because there really isn't a whole lot to draw them there. Except in a few pockets that already support a rural population (Kapuskasing, Thunder Bay, Dryden, Fort Frances), most of the shield does not support agriculture. The economic value of the land is principally through mining and forestry, but neither of those requires proximity to settlements in order to be successful. So why go solve a problem which doesn't exist and go put people somewhere where they aren't needed and somewhere they don't want to go?
But it's not like Toronto has a whole lot of agriculture going on anymore, nor is agriculture a draw for people today anyway. It's not for lack of agricultural land that people are not settling in Northern Ontario today. From an historical perspective, what you say is correct and it explains why Toronto was settled and Northern Ontario was not. But the factors that were important then are of little or no consequence now in an economy based mainly on services, so an historical explanation doesn't explain the lack of settlement in the present.

What attracts people to Toronto today is basically that Toronto has a large, diverse economy that continually reinforces itself through adding yet more people. It got that way ultimately because it was able to draw large enough numbers of people for other reasons in the past. If, by some quirk of history, a city the size of Toronto had formed at Sault Ste. Marie or Thunder Bay or Nipigon, then it would be attracting people today just as Toronto does.


I wouldn't have given this issue any great thought were it not for the fact that we keep expanding our existing cities onto some of our best remaining farmland all the while thousands of square kilometres of pretty much otherwise useless land exists that we could be using for urban development instead.


Quote:
Originally Posted by canadaonstrike View Post
I've always been fascinated by the Canadian Shield rock formation. Ontario is so huge but a lot of it is covered by the shield. How much of Ontario's portion of the Canadian Shield has been developed for homes? How hard is it to do?
I've been wondering about that too. So we might need to employ some extra explosives, but in the grand scheme of urban development that's not the end of the world, and it ought to cut down on the cost of aggregates since they can be quarried onsite rather than brought in from sometimes distant quarries. In Ottawa's western suburb of Kanata we seem to blast away at an extensive outcrop of the Canadian Shield known as the Carp Ridge without concerning ourselves too much with it, other than its loss on enviro-aesthetic grounds, turning it into random generic suburbia but on a hillside where at least it doesn't have flooding issues. Elsewhere in Ottawa we have to blast limestone bedrock out for utilities, and I'm sure that's the case in many places. The Finns seem to be able to manage building cities on granite, as do the Swedes. From the looks of it, so do we in Sudbury, although our obsession with creating little plots of grassland surrounding each house and everything else imaginable is a tad insane in such an environment, but nevertheless it can apparently be done.

I would even surmise that if we adapted our building techniques, especially for residential, to slab-on-grade rather than building basements to get below what would be non-existent frost coverage we could speed up construction somewhat. Perhaps building on Canadian Shield might even encourage denser development and/or development that conformed to the landscape (i.e. stop trying to create lawns everywhere).

In short, I don't believe there are any serious technical or cost impediments to city-building on Canadian Shield. The reason it doesn't happen is basically from a chicken-and-egg socio-economic situation whereby since there are no major cities in Northern Ontario we're not expanding them.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #87  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2011, 5:15 AM
Architype's Avatar
Architype Architype is offline
♒︎ verified human
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: 🍁 Canada
Posts: 14,084
The Northern Ontario sheild is a lot like Labrador with slightly better weather. It cannot support agriculture, and is not extremely pleasant weather wise. It would be a hard place to try and populate with millions of people. The only area of Canada that is suitable to support more population than it already has is the Maritimes, and perhaps Newfoundland to a much lesser extent.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #88  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2011, 2:44 PM
freeweed's Avatar
freeweed freeweed is offline
Home of Hyperchange
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dynamic City, Alberta
Posts: 17,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
In short, I don't believe there are any serious technical or cost impediments to city-building on Canadian Shield. The reason it doesn't happen is basically from a chicken-and-egg socio-economic situation whereby since there are no major cities in Northern Ontario we're not expanding them.
I've lived in Shield country. Some parts of the town actually have soil, and some parts were on solid bedrock. It was quite a bit more expensive to build on the bedrock. Basically only the rich did it because it made the cost of an average house too expensive. Just from that alone, there are some serious cost impediments. And this was just for housing. Roads, commercial buildings, water treatment... basically anything that needs to go on or in the ground becomes much more expensive.

It's not insurmountable, no - but watch a new subdivision being built sometime. Digging in the dirt to put in a foundation is trivial. Blasting huge amounts of granite (multiply this by thousands of lots)... it's a lot more work. Levelling ground is insanely expensive.

It is still mostly a chicken-and-egg problem, correct - but don't underestimate the expense here. Yes, it *can* be done, and in places where demand is high (and therefore expense is less of a factor), it's do-able. But to just take a random Shield town and add thousands of new houses... you'd have to come up with some serious motivation to do that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #89  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2011, 2:46 PM
freeweed's Avatar
freeweed freeweed is offline
Home of Hyperchange
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dynamic City, Alberta
Posts: 17,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by Architype View Post
The Northern Ontario sheild is a lot like Labrador with slightly better weather. It cannot support agriculture, and is not extremely pleasant weather wise. It would be a hard place to try and populate with millions of people. The only area of Canada that is suitable to support more population than it already has is the Maritimes, and perhaps Newfoundland to a much lesser extent.
To be fair, it's no worse than the weather in Manitoba, and well over a million people live there. Hell, it's arguably nicer weather in some respects than most of the prairies, and millions live there.

Not a lot of agriculture beyond a few narrow belts, granted. But you could easily have a city of a million people that's not running on agriculture. The weather isn't the impediment.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #90  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2011, 3:32 PM
MrOilers MrOilers is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 2,498
Quote:
Originally Posted by freeweed View Post
The weather isn't the impediment.
Indeed. People aren't moving in droves to Alberta because of the weather.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #91  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2011, 3:59 PM
vid's Avatar
vid vid is offline
I am a typical
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Thunder Bay
Posts: 39,065
If you look at the settlement patterns of Sudbury, it becomes very clear that they do not build on the exposed parts of the shield. They only build where there is soil. They don't build on swampy land much, either. That limits the available land for building. They've built power centres and apartment towers on blasted rock, but not semi-detacheds surrounded by grass.

And every time you point out that "lawns aren't natural in this region" people look at you as if you're insane. The only places you see grass up here are in places where you also find people.

One of the main reasons people didn't move here is because the province didn't intend for people to move here. They just used the region for its natural resource wealth, and the people who lived here were the people they used to extract it. The male to female ratio in Thunder Bay in the late 1800s was essentially 2:1 for that reason.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #92  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2011, 4:59 PM
SHOFEAR's Avatar
SHOFEAR SHOFEAR is offline
DRINK
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: City Of Champions
Posts: 8,211
Quote:
Originally Posted by vid View Post
If you look at the settlement patterns of Sudbury, it becomes very clear that they do not build on the exposed parts of the shield. They only build where there is soil. They don't build on swampy land much, either. That limits the available land for building. They've built power centres and apartment towers on blasted rock, but not semi-detacheds surrounded by grass.
.
I would assume it has something to do with the concentration of deep and shallow utilities that would be required. As well as the more complicated grading required for subdivisions. Large Power centers and appartments typical have one service for power, water, san etc from an arterial road. Where as each house requires one individual service for each said utility from a much denser street network. Our contactors but up a big fuss when we hit a couple feet wide layer of sandstone...screw bedrock.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #93  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2011, 6:13 PM
freeweed's Avatar
freeweed freeweed is offline
Home of Hyperchange
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dynamic City, Alberta
Posts: 17,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrOilers View Post
Indeed. People aren't moving in droves to Alberta because of the weather.
No kidding. I'm one of the very few that did, and most people think I'm insane when I tell them that.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #94  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2011, 8:47 PM
new age new age is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Architype View Post
The only area of Canada that is suitable to support more population than it already has is the Maritimes, and perhaps Newfoundland to a much lesser extent.
The Maritime Provinces are the most populated Provinces in all of Canada. A trip across this country shows the numbers to be true. The Maritimes cities are small but very tight together.

Population density/km2

Prince Edward Island 24.97
Nova Scotia 17.63
Ontario 14.29
New Brunswick 10.50
Alberta 5.76
Canada 3.731
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #95  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2011, 8:55 PM
jigglysquishy's Avatar
jigglysquishy jigglysquishy is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Saskatchewan
Posts: 3,326
There's no reason growth can't still occur in Atlantic Canada. There is certainly room to facilitate it.

Halifax with 1,000,000 people. That's the Canada I want to live in.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #96  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2011, 10:13 PM
new age new age is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 76
I didn't say there was no room for growth in Atlantic Canada. It is not "the only area of Canada that is suitable to support more population," there is a lot more room for growth in the west.

Saskatoon with 1,000,000 people. That's the Canada I want to live in..?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #97  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 3:38 AM
Jamaican-Phoenix's Avatar
Jamaican-Phoenix Jamaican-Phoenix is offline
R2-D2's army of death
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Downtown Ottawa
Posts: 3,561
Winnipeg: 1,000,000+
Saskatoon: 1,000,000+
Regina: 1,000,000+
Halifax: 1,000,000+
Thunder Bay: 500,000+
Sault-Ste. Marie: 100,000+
Sudbury: 500,000+
North Bay, 100,000+
Ottawa-Gatineau: 2,100,000+
London: 750,000+
Halifax: 1,000,000+

Windsor-Quebec-Halifax High Speed Rail, Edmonton-Red Deer-Calgary High Speed Rail, Saskatoon-Regina High Speed Rail, and Sault-Ste. Marie-Sudbury-North Bay High Speed Rail.

THAT'S the Canada I want to live in.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #98  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 3:46 AM
vid's Avatar
vid vid is offline
I am a typical
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Thunder Bay
Posts: 39,065
Considering road network, Thunder Bay is probably the most capable of supporting a large influx of people. Our Intercity area could easily be revitalized in a way Mississauga City Centre has been. Both of our expressways have the right of ways to support 6 or even 8 lane freeway. We have multiple nodes that can become fairly uniformly high density cores, connected by a decent road network and the possibility of good public transit connections between them and employment nodes. We also have a large port that can accommodate a significant amount of industrial development without having to build new infrastructure; we'd simply have to upgrade existing roads and utilities. If any city in the north is prepared for a massive influx of people and development, it's Thunder Bay. Largely because, as I explained earlier, we actually developed a plan for this very thing.

But if I had to choose a location already occupied by a city to become a large city, I would choose Sault Ste. Marie. In a way, Sault Ste. Marie is the largest city in Northern Ontario already. Thunder Bay is actually Port Arthur and Fort William. Sudbury is a city of 45,000 with a lot of suburban towns around it, one of which is very close by and almost as large.

Sault Ste. Marie is just the Soo. There is only one city there. And even if you include Soo Michigan, unlike Thunder Bay and Sudbury, the two downtowns are across from each other, not separated by several miles. The location is pretty cool too, with the locks and nearby hills. To the west is a flat, easy-to-develop area with few farms, so it can grow without really impacting agriculture, unlike Thunder Bay or Sudbury which both have productive agricultural areas at risk of redevelopment.

Last edited by vid; Jul 8, 2011 at 3:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #99  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 12:59 PM
freeweed's Avatar
freeweed freeweed is offline
Home of Hyperchange
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Dynamic City, Alberta
Posts: 17,568
Quote:
Originally Posted by new age View Post
I didn't say there was no room for growth in Atlantic Canada. It is not "the only area of Canada that is suitable to support more population," there is a lot more room for growth in the west.
Yeah, I shook my head at that statement too. Thanks for providing raw numbers to back it up. It's kinda weird to see Ontario having such a high overall population density though, considering the very topic at hand - there's just SO MUCH virtually empty space. It really highlights just how dense it is in the south.

While I've never personally been (last trip tick-box in this country), the Maritimes have always struck me as being as close the US as we have here - small provinces, maybe the cities aren't megalopolises however they're densely packed. No driving 50-100km between each town like in the prairies.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #100  
Old Posted Jul 8, 2011, 1:04 PM
MolsonExport's Avatar
MolsonExport MolsonExport is online now
Touching grass everyday.
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Otisburgh
Posts: 51,768
^try Northern New Brunswick from Plaster Rock to Renous. —-— all on that highway. except moose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Brunswick_Route_108
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 5:17 PM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.