Edmonton Public Transit

[Makenosmallplans]

The 'social engineering' argument sounds to me like the 'grand conspiracy'. i think decisions to encourage use of LRT, bus transit, bicycles and walking have more to do with an imperative that many see - that continued and forever reliance on the automobile to transport one or two people short distances is not a sustainable form of transportation, economically speaking. think about it. I put my 200 lb body into a 4500 lb steel vehicle and use combusted gasoline to generate huge amounts of energy to move me less than 20km, 10 times a week. How does that make sense to anyone as efficient or even sustainable in the long term? (leave the notion of transporting multiple people or of goods aside for a moment). Sure, electric cars or some other fuel source than gasoline may well emerge but so will changing social attitudes about how we get around daily. Social engineering? hardly. its just reality... and that means that things like rising prices for fuel and more traffic congestion are the things that 'drive' that change in attitudes. Try to hold back the ocean if you want but it just doesn't make sense to me.... and I'm a 52 year old non-hipster who drives to work most days.

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by GreenSPACE

^Not backing up my statements does not make them untrue. You can't say something is untrue because it isn't convenient to your position.

And something about 'hipsters' thrown in there makes me believe you're not serious about having a discussion.

Oh, I see a lot that suggests you are more serious about preaching than discussing things.

[GreenSPACE]

^I don't know why you'd start trolling me. Really just makes me not want to engage in discussion cause what we say on here make no real difference to how the LRT will be built anyhow.

^^I agree with those sentiments.

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by GreenSPACE

^I don't know why you'd start trolling me. Really just makes me not want to engage in discussion cause what we say on here make no real difference to how the LRT will be built anyhow.

^^I agree with those sentiments.

I'm not trolling you, I'm poking holes in arguments that don't stand up. Personally I'd like to see plebiscites on issues such as this that pit convenience & tax dollars against social ideology and tax dollars.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ We elect people to make these decisions.

[GreenSPACE]

^^Ok, I can respond to that. Plebiscites are a bad idea. They are a slippery slope towards the status quo because it is often easier to say 'no' than to say 'yes'. We have a vision for the city towards improving our overall modality as we encourage more density. This was enshrined in the 'Way We Grow' documents by City Council. That was voted for in a majority in every poll when Don Iveson was elected. He has the mandate to go ahead with the Valley Line LRT. Granted, it may not be perfect. But it's going ahead.

[240glt]

I live in a quiet mature suburb yet can still get to my office in 20 mins on the bus. I wish the LRT was coming by closer to our place (I miss my commute from Parkdale) but it's still pretty darn easy on the bus. It's an 8 minute drive otherwise, which is still fantastic and speaks to the ideal location of my neighourhood

As noted in another thread, due to some unfortunate family health issues we find ourselves driving to Tereillegar and St. Albert after work most weekdays. Luckily my father-in-law is being moved to a place very close to us in Gold Bar soon, but this experience has really highlighted how much time some people are willing to spend behind the wheel. I am no hipster.. About as far from that as you can get and I love my cars... But even a suburb dwelling, 4x4 owning, beer guzzling small town boy like myself can see the advantage of expanded mass transit and living close to where you work


As for the P3, I believe they picked the right consortium

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by GreenSPACE

^^Ok, I can respond to that. Plebiscites are a bad idea. They are a slippery slope towards the status quo because it is often easier to say 'no' than to say 'yes'. We have a vision for the city towards improving our overall modality as we encourage more density. This was enshrined in the 'Way We Grow' documents by City Council. That was voted for in a majority in every poll when Don Iveson was elected. He has the mandate to go ahead with the Valley Line LRT. Granted, it may not be perfect. But it's going ahead.

So plebiscites are bad but polls are good? I'm not suggesting a pro/anti LRT plebiscite, I'm suggesting a for/against key intersection scrape&cover vs. at-grade plebiscite. Debate leading up to it could outline the cost/benefit of each decision, including short-term and long-term projected costs to taxpayers.

[Daveography]

^ Pretty sure no matter how you slice it, at-grade will always be cheaper in both short-term construction and and in long-term maintenance costs; also pretty sure that given the choice, taxpayers will always vote for the option that costs them the least.

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by Daveography

^ Pretty sure no matter how you slice it, at-grade will always be cheaper in both short-term construction and and in long-term maintenance costs; also pretty sure that given the choice, taxpayers will always vote for the option that costs them the least.

I absolutely agree on the taxpayer, but I do think that costs aren't simply monetary. I think that the loss or gain of time, convenience, options are also factors. You might find that there are people along pre-existing routes where railway crossings (LRT, CPR, CNR) exist who would be more than happy to pay a bit more in taxes to get the at grade crossings changed.

[McBoo]

Think that it's wrong to not at least cost-out the grade separated option.

Transit planners either didn't do, or lied about the Kingsway cluster-fork and now we're stuck with it. Too late, too bad.

Why would we make the same mistake all over?

And then, we can always make the same mistake on the Lewis Estates portion at 109 Street and 104 Ave.

Beggers the imagination really.

Are bthese the same people who are giving us, who needs a lake anyway Blatchford?

[Daveography]

^^ Looking at it reciprocally, perhaps if driving cost people more in time and convenience, they would be more inclined to consider options that cost them less time and convenience, like living closer to work, taking transit, active transportation, etc.

Maybe that's social engineering, sure, but I feel that the benefits justify it.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ Edmonton has a pattern of designing to budget it seems, then limiting scope creep at council with visions of tax increases dancing in their heads.

I think the propensity to do it is similar to Toronto's planning - the options are much more open, that allowing changes can derail projects entirely. This is unlike Calgary, which oddly stays very close to long term plans, and readily accepts new long term plans decades before projects come forth.

[Landlocked]

Originally Posted by Daveography

^^ Looking at it reciprocally, perhaps if driving cost people more in time and convenience, they would be more inclined to consider options that cost them less time and convenience, like living closer to work, taking transit, active transportation, etc.

Maybe that's social engineering, sure, but I feel that the benefits justify it.

Somewhere out there is a redneck who thinks 'If we get more trucks rolling coal, the cyclists will start driving cars and stop going 25 in a 60 zone.'

The problem with social engineering is that it's too often based around constructing punishments instead of incentives to change behavior.

[EdmTrekker]

"The problem with social engineering is that it's too often based around constructing punishments instead of incentives to change behavior."

Surely that was in the Premiers speech on carbon??

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by Landlocked

Somewhere out there is a redneck who thinks 'If we get more trucks rolling coal, the cyclists will start driving cars and stop going 25 in a 60 zone.'

The problem with social engineering is that it's too often based around constructing punishments instead of incentives to change behavior.

If you feel being delayed a few more minutes on your daily commute is "punishment," then your underlying problem is not a delay of a few more minutes on your daily commute.

[s211]

Hoo boy, this discussion is going off the rails, I must say.

[ciudad_del_norte]

Originally Posted by Daveography

If you feel being delayed a few more minutes on your daily commute is "punishment," then your underlying problem is not a delay of a few more minutes on your daily commute.

Yeah. I think we need a bit more perspective of what types of delay and congestion are reasonable and acceptable in a city of this size. Even in these apparently terrible spots for the LRT, Edmonton doesn't really have a problem with traffic.

Do we need to purposely make it more difficult to drive? No. But we also don't need to keep adjusting everything else to try to keep up with some unsustainable level of service for vehicles. I don't even think it is about social engineering. It's about recognizing other priorities and trade-offs. Are there some intersections where grade separation might have been better...yeah, probably. I also didn't have to make those budgeting/design decisions, so I wont sit here and pretend I know everything that somebody else didn't.

My biggest problem with the the kingsway intersection is actually how it is quite awkward as a pedestrian.

[Hallsy's Toupee]

Originally Posted by s211

Hoo boy, this discussion is going off the rails, I must say.

I see what you did there!

[GreenSPACE]

Also for discussion:

Living in car-dependent suburbs can make you fat and sick, study finds

" A striking finding of the work, published in 2012, is that recent immigrants living in suburbs with poor public transit were 50 per cent more likely to develop diabetes.

"The suburbs are unhealthy," Hux said. "The fact that the findings still hold in Vancouver is important."

While far-flung municipalities are generally stuck with their originally designed roads and sidewalks, better public transit can make a difference by getting people to walk a few blocks to a bus stop rather than their garage, she said."

http://www.calgaryherald.com/health/stor..._source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer