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  #8201  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2015, 11:30 PM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I agree that provincialism is no longer territorial. At the same time, though, there are large swathes of the population that are genuinely being left behind - not just in a material sense, but in terms of a wider "access to opportunity"/"ability to change life situation"/"feasibility of gaining alternative perspectives", so the sting of 'provincialism' on actual people is more severe than ever.
Yeah, it is worrisome.

Back in the 90's as internet access became ubiquitous in North America people talked about how amazing it was to see the democratization of communication and how people could telecommute from anywhere, etc. Years later, a huge percentage of the new wealth generated was captured by a few monopolies and ended up in the hands of a small set of very privileged people in a couple of cities. Poorer and less educated people have seen their economic fortunes decline during this period.

I've heard some good suggestions of what can be done about this but there doesn't seem to be a clear path forward. I'm not sure what's going to happen 10 years into the future once another 10 million or so more labourers lose their jobs and the price of unskilled labour sinks further.

For the time being I can at least enjoy being largely on the winning end of all of this.
     
     
  #8202  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2015, 11:35 PM
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  #8203  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2015, 11:39 PM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
What exactly do you guys mean by "polished"? I would tend to take that to mean the exact opposite of "gritty". Is that interpretation correct?
Good question!

My interpretation of "polished" in this context is a city that takes care to present itself in a visually pleasing way. For most cities this is achieved through having a high quality public realm (streets, sidewalks, parks, light fixtures, transit stations, the street-level design of buildings, etc.). A polished city is one where the public realm is both aesthetically pleasing to a majority of people and one that is maintained immaculately (i.e. cleaned and fixed where needed).

"Gritty" is a more complex term for me. I suppose it would imply that some sort of genteel decay has set in on what were once splendid surroundings. But it also has some positive connotations: it means there's still life, even very interesting forms of vibrancy that the original purpose wasn't there for.

The two are definitely not the same.

Toronto has grit (Montreal has more) but it doesn't have polish. A lot of main streets in downtowns in the US have polish but they don't necessarily have grit (because they lack vibrancy, but they have a terrific public realm).

New York is not lacking in polish and it has quite a bit of grit still left.
     
     
  #8204  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2015, 11:52 PM
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Warsaw is clearly the most Polished city.
     
     
  #8205  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2015, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Spring2008 View Post
I tend to agree. Wasn't majorly impressed with Toronto's architecture either aside from a few historic buildings and some of the new towers going up. Lacking a bit of that grandeur you'd expect from a large city relative to even a city like Mtl. In this respect you cannot compare it to NY at all. Also found the city pretty far behind in natural beauty/park-spaces and public realm compared to say Vancouver. Having said that the city's buzzing with lots of variety/things to do and well on it's way to becoming a global city.
One really noticeable difference between Toronto and New York is that New York has much older buildings and is much more evenly built up. Where NYC has rows of 10+ storey masonry buildings from 1910 or so, punctuated with the odd landmark building, Toronto has an assortment of 2-4 storey Victorian commercial buildings, 70's highrises, and miscellaneous bunkers. Farther out in NYC there are 5+ storey tenements where Toronto has rowhouses or detached houses. In New York you find big clusters of buildings of particular styles from particular periods, like cast iron facades from the 1850s. I'm not sure how many of those Toronto has but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have a neighbourhood with many blocks of them that you can wander around in.

I agree that Toronto is short on nice public spaces too. Whenever I say this people bring up the ravines or High Park but I am talking more about smaller scale public squares and the like. Downtown Toronto has a concrete jungle sort of feel.
     
     
  #8206  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2015, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
I've heard some good suggestions of what can be done about this but there doesn't seem to be a clear path forward. I'm not sure what's going to happen 10 years into the future once another 10 million or so more labourers lose their jobs and the price of unskilled labour sinks further.

For the time being I can at least enjoy being largely on the winning end of all of this.
I'd be interested to read some of these ideas!

One of my biggest worries of all time is that the working class is no longer capable of fighting for equality the way that they did 100 years ago when they were unionizing. All social change is now being led by members of the middle class and even the upper middle class. The days when day labourers stood on soapboxes, or organized general strikes, or packed lecture halls to listen to people like Emma Goldman or Eugene Hartke...those days are gone.

Blue collar institutions have been completely eviscerated, and it's just a matter of time before many of these people slide into a rapidly growing, permanent underclass.

Anyway, here's the skyline of the most underrepresented major city on SSP Canada:


Source
     
     
  #8207  
Old Posted Nov 11, 2015, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Harrij View Post
Edmonton posters are bad with that? I can think of one or two but I've seen more from other cities' posters. Admittedly, I haven't been here anywhere near as long or as frequently as most regulars here.
I think esquire meant to say Calgary...?
     
     
  #8208  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
I'd be interested to read some of these ideas!
I think the best one is guaranteed income. It is good because it can gradually be ratcheted up, government already print money in a similar way (they just give it to other people), and it would give working class people a lot more negotiating power and time to do things other than desperately try to pay for necessities.

Quote:
One of my biggest worries of all time is that the working class is no longer capable of fighting for equality the way that they did 100 years ago when they were unionizing. All social change is now being led by members of the middle class and even the upper middle class. The days when day labourers stood on soapboxes, or organized general strikes, or packed lecture halls to listen to people like Emma Goldman or Eugene Hartke...those days are gone.
That's okay, Stanford grads can easily get millions of dollars in VC funding to write apps to solve all of these problems. And they're more educated so they will come up with better solutions for other people, right?
     
     
  #8209  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 12:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Beedok View Post
Counting all of history London and New York aren't serious contenders. Paris was the cultural heart of Europe for centuries and still remains top for fashion and many other things. New York and London are commerce, but for most of their history they weren't known for much else. Doing all of history Baghdad would probably rank better than New York due to the centuries of being a global centre of culture and learning vs. New York's one century of being a cultural centre.
Madrid as well was the seat of an empire on which the sun did not set for a while, a very exclusive category that contains only it and London.

If the criterion is "was unambiguously the world's top city / center of power at some point" then Rome and London and Madrid are all ahead of NYC, IMO.
     
     
  #8210  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by osmo View Post
Toronto has a major glass ceiling with culture and the scene that is here isn't that extraordinary a d is very small. It gets get benefit of being the "defacto" national scene and thus locals here can be projected on a national scale for really not doing all that much aside from knowing the right people.

For serious talent they notice how small Toronto is quickly and often times jump at the chance to sink or swim in larger waters like NYC, LA, London, and some do but some don't and return back to the cozy confines of Toronto.

Montreal is the only city with a scene of actual size and scope. Vancouver has great talent that gets exported out to quickly, to many come to Toronto, but also many end up on a bigger platform abroad.

Toronto does not deserve the attention it gets. it rarely is pushing any new and interesting things. When I tell people that places like Detroit for example have much more intense and unique culture scenes people in Toronto arrogantly laugh but it's the truth. You can send 3 days in Detroit and be exposed to more then what a month would give you here in Toronto.
Check out the billboard hot 100, Toronto and area artists have been dominating the top 5-10 songs these days.

I also think that much of what you posted is pretty ridiculous.
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  #8211  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by softee View Post
Check out the billboard hot 100, Toronto and area artists have been dominating the top 5-10 songs these days.

I also think that much of what you posted is pretty ridiculous.
Drake, Bieber, Shawn Mendes, and The Weeknd are killing it right now..

I got in trouble last time, Bieber is not from Toronto GTA, but looks like I forgot Alessia Cara from Brampton!!

Last edited by caltrane74; Nov 12, 2015 at 12:47 AM.
     
     
  #8212  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Gerrard View Post
Osmo's views are ridiculous. But honestly while Toronto does have a great street vibe it has a great street vibe for a city of 2.5. New York is 3x as large and it's apparent. It's great to say, yeah New York is a city one should strive to be more like but to suggest Toronto is even close isn't really accurate.

But it's dynamic, in a constant state of flux blah blah blah, and that's great. It's that dynamism that puts it in a league ahead of other Canadian metropolises but not in New York's.

It's ok to be number one in a B-list country.
I think mistercorporate comment was interpreted as too literal a comparison. Obviously, New York size and wealth alone puts it several stages above Toronto. At the same time, the conservative, powerful New York aristocracy and the continued push in the US for new immigrant to conform to American society creates a ceiling on innovation that is not present in Toronto. It's no surprise Toronto is an incubator/ testing ground for new ideas. It has the population density with a diverse open mindset.
     
     
  #8213  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 1:00 AM
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Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
If the criterion is "was unambiguously the world's top city / center of power at some point" then Rome and London and Madrid are all ahead of NYC, IMO.
At its peak around 1940-1950 I bet the US had a larger share of the world economy than any of those empires.

We don't tend to think of the US as an "empire" but it has accumulated a lot of overseas territories. From the 1890's to 1940's, the Phillippines were an American possession.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territories_of_the_United_States
     
     
  #8214  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 1:04 AM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
One really noticeable difference between Toronto and New York is that New York has much older buildings and is much more evenly built up. Where NYC has rows of 10+ storey masonry buildings from 1910 or so, punctuated with the odd landmark building, Toronto has an assortment of 2-4 storey Victorian commercial buildings, 70's highrises, and miscellaneous bunkers. Farther out in NYC there are 5+ storey tenements where Toronto has rowhouses or detached houses. In New York you find big clusters of buildings of particular styles from particular periods, like cast iron facades from the 1850s. I'm not sure how many of those Toronto has but I'm pretty sure it doesn't have a neighbourhood with many blocks of them that you can wander around in.

I agree that Toronto is short on nice public spaces too. Whenever I say this people bring up the ravines or High Park but I am talking more about smaller scale public squares and the like. Downtown Toronto has a concrete jungle sort of feel.
I can only think of one cast iron facade in Toronto. New York is defined by the boom in the late teens/twenties which is the particular style that is trending right now. Toronto is defined by the 1960s and 70s. It is just looking tired and dated. There's has been a big push here funded by development charges to rebuilt and createvnew quality pocket public spaces. The biggest problem is design supercedes functionality. They look pretty but not places to spend any time in.
     
     
  #8215  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 1:19 AM
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At its peak around 1940-1950 I bet the US had a larger share of the world economy than any of those empires.
Totally agree with you, AND I thought of that, BUT the three examples I gave were empires that had everything really concentrated in their main city (and capital) while this was never the case for the US.

Had NYC been the only big city in the entire USA and its capital as well, then yes in ~1950 that city would've been totally on top of the world in every sense.
     
     
  #8216  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 1:29 AM
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Originally Posted by hipster duck View Post
One of my biggest worries of all time is that the working class is no longer capable of fighting for equality the way that they did 100 years ago when they were unionizing. All social change is now being led by members of the middle class and even the upper middle class. The days when day labourers stood on soapboxes, or organized general strikes, or packed lecture halls to listen to people like Emma Goldman or Eugene Hartke...those days are gone.

Blue collar institutions have been completely eviscerated, and it's just a matter of time before many of these people slide into a rapidly growing, permanent underclass.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: one of the greatest ironies of all-time is that Marx's preconditions for communist revolution were never present in 1910s Russia or 1930s China, but they are in modern-day China. But of course that history won't repeat itself, and just as well.

We're gently sliding back into a gilded age, though this time with electronic baubles, instant communication and decent healthcare. Maybe those things will be enough to placate the hordes, but I tend to find koulmaudit's characterization of the flimsy edifice of our modern day secular Western society with its post-Enlightenment and multicultural pieties (of which I'm a true believer) quite convincing. It's too easy for middle-aged men to become apocalyptic, I know it's a cliche, but I can't help it. Seems to me that when the shit hits the fan in the form of a devastating nuclear attack somewhere, a massive ecological disaster or, you know, maybe an earthquake that lays Los Angeles, San Francisco and Tokyo to waste on the same day, our rational feathers are going to be ruffled and we are going to retreat to our primal, tribal natures.

Although, then again, it was pretty easy to be apocalyptic in the 1930s and 40s, and yet somehow we survived. We'll see.

If I can rant tangentially for a moment, since we're doing it in this thread: I'm starting to become really disenchanted with the current vogue for identity politics. I'm aware that a middle-aged straight white man saying this plays to type, blah blah blah, sure. But it seems to me that there is a fundamentally incoherent disconnect with the identity politics crowd in how they genuflect before the struggles for "self-realization" or "personhood" of ever more fragmented identity groups while being completely tone deaf about the problems of economic class and ethno-cultural cohesion.

There, I've said it. I've gone there. I'm a white guy ranting about "political correctness gone mad."

Essentially: I think we're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Too many people are spending too much time policing speech for evidence of perceived improprieties against the thousands of aggrieved identity groups that are shouting on the Internet and social media for "justice and respect." It's solipsistic, myopic and narcissistic in light of the real economic issues that we are faced with.

By all means, I want dignity and respect for all. But I think that more effort working on the economic side of things is needed, from the macro to the micro. For example, I wish I had the economic wherewithal and the know-how to start up some kind of small, innovative manufacturing firm that would employ a dozen local people making...something. It's not my field, or my area, so while I might have some zany ideas, I don't have the practical vision to bring them to fruition. But you see what I mean here?

I find it very moving every time someone opens up something like a new restaurant. Such dreams and hopes! These people are putting everything on the line and working their patooshkas off, and the odds are against them. I've been in Stratford long enough, this being a tourist town, to see the whole cycle several times over, from the flushed excitement of the social media campaigns to the initially supportive crowds (of friends and relatives) to the yawning malaise of slow midweek evenings to the sudden realization, as you pass by one day, that hey, that place closed, the storefront is empty.

Too long? I guess I'm saying that the "personal is political" has become too monumental. It may be your life, and very important to you, but there are more important things out there to ask others to care about.
     
     
  #8217  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 1:34 AM
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Originally Posted by someone123 View Post
At its peak around 1940-1950 I bet the US had a larger share of the world economy than any of those empires.

We don't tend to think of the US as an "empire" but it has accumulated a lot of overseas territories. From the 1890's to 1940's, the Phillippines were an American possession.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territories_of_the_United_States
Anyone who doesn't think of America is an empire has bought into the empire's own propaganda. An American military base map puts it more in perspective.



The future is corporate empires. The American government works for its businesses.
     
     
  #8218  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 1:41 AM
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Originally Posted by rousseau View Post
I've said it before, and I'll say it again: one of the greatest ironies of all-time is that Marx's preconditions for communist revolution were never present in 1910s Russia or 1930s China, but they are in modern-day China. But of course that history won't repeat itself, and just as well.

We're gently sliding back into a gilded age, though this time with electronic baubles, instant communication and decent healthcare. Maybe those things will be enough to placate the hordes, but I tend to find koulmaudit's characterization of the flimsy edifice of our modern day secular Western society with its post-Enlightenment and multicultural pieties (of which I'm a true believer) quite convincing. It's too easy for middle-aged men to become apocalyptic, I know it's a cliche, but I can't help it. Seems to me that when the shit hits the fan in the form of a devastating nuclear attack somewhere, a massive ecological disaster or, you know, maybe an earthquake that lays Los Angeles, San Francisco and Tokyo to waste on the same day, our rational feathers are going to be ruffled and we are going to retreat to our primal, tribal natures.

Although, then again, it was pretty easy to be apocalyptic in the 1930s and 40s, and yet somehow we survived. We'll see.

If I can rant tangentially for a moment, since we're doing it in this thread: I'm starting to become really disenchanted with the current vogue for identity politics. I'm aware that a middle-aged straight white man saying this plays to type, blah blah blah, sure. But it seems to me that there is a fundamentally incoherent disconnect with the identity politics crowd in how they genuflect before the struggles for "self-realization" or "personhood" of ever more fragmented identity groups while being completely tone deaf about the problems of economic class and ethno-cultural cohesion.

There, I've said it. I've gone there. I'm a white guy ranting about "political correctness gone mad."

Essentially: I think we're rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Too many people are spending too much time policing speech for evidence of perceived improprieties against the thousands of aggrieved identity groups that are shouting on the Internet and social media for "justice and respect." It's solipsistic, myopic and narcissistic in light of the real economic issues that we are faced with.

By all means, I want dignity and respect for all. But I think that more effort working on the economic side of things is needed, from the macro to the micro. For example, I wish I had the economic wherewithal and the know-how to start up some kind of small, innovative manufacturing firm that would employ a dozen local people making...something. It's not my field, or my area, so while I might have some zany ideas, I don't have the practical vision to bring them to fruition. But you see what I mean here?

I find it very moving every time someone opens up something like a new restaurant. Such dreams and hopes! These people are putting everything on the line and working their patooshkas off, and the odds are against them. I've been in Stratford long enough, this being a tourist town, to see the whole cycle several times over, from the flushed excitement of the social media campaigns to the initially supportive crowds (of friends and relatives) to the yawning malaise of slow midweek evenings to the sudden realization, as you pass by one day, that hey, that place closed, the storefront is empty.

Too long? I guess I'm saying that the "personal is political" has become too monumental. It may be your life, and very important to you, but there are more important things out there to ask others to care about.
Very interesting observations.
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  #8219  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 3:19 AM
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Caltranes examples suggest Toronto produces a lot of bubble gum pop stars, which is fine I suppose.

Somebody mentioned Detroit, so I looked up some notable Detroit artists, and the list is quite impressive. Jack White vs all artists in Canada combined...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_of_Detroit#Notable_artists

Vancouver's music scene really seems like it has declined badly over the last few decades, even though our population is much larger now. Lot's of live venues have shut down over the years in favour of DJ'd music, which I believe is the cause of that decline. The resurgence of the DTES will, imo, become a breeding ground for great live acts coming out of Vancouver in the future.
     
     
  #8220  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2015, 3:30 AM
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The world didn't begin in 1700, nor does it end at the Mediterranean. Rome wasn't even the world's most important city at its peak, it was part of a multipolar reality with far richer cities in the world at that time.

Ur, Babylon, Thebes, Alexandria, Constantinople/Istanbul, etc. And that's just in the Near East. Asia is no slouch (Genghis Khan among others may have something to say about such a list) though its greatest empires and ancient/medieval great cities are far less prominent in our popular culture.
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