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  #3981  
Old Posted May 12, 2015, 4:22 PM
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wong21fr wong21fr is offline
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Originally Posted by Sam Hill View Post
I don’t know. I think that would certainly encourage tourism, but I think it might also scare away millennials that might otherwise consider living in Denver. Young people don’t want to live in a place that’s perceived as a cow town. When I was in my twenties living in Denver (not too long ago) I lived downtown for the sake of being someplace urban (which is apparently the way of the millennial if I am to believe the pervasive narrative about them). I and my urban Denverite friends were regularly defending Denver any time we visited either coast. People had a hard time believing Denverites could be at all urbane. Denver was a cow town and a Denverite was a redneck. I’m sure most of you have had similar experiences. We don’t want to do anything to augment Denver’s cow town image IMO.

Focusing on the cowboy myth would be a mistake IMO- especially since no one is going to do the hard work of showing reality instead of myth where 25% of cowboys were black and 33% were Hispanic while the majority of the boring farmers were the white folks. But focusing on Colorado's Western heritage and celebrating that is something that should be done and could entice Millennials. A focus on agriculture in the West would be a great start as it would tie in with the farm to table movement and local sustainable agriculture of which Millenials profess some preference for. The proposal for the revamped National Western Center contributes to this focus and is a great start.

Then there's mining. Millenials are just as clueless as the rest of the populace about how many minerals are required for our high-technology/high-energy lifestyle and the environmentally conscious and unconscious practices that are employed to get those minerals. This is something the could be a heritage selling point. Denver's position as a hub of the mining industry is not something that's particularly highlighted and an area where having a museum of science and technology would help bring it to light. It's not something that is going to attract people to Denver, but at least we'd make those who are here aware of it.
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  #3982  
Old Posted May 12, 2015, 6:05 PM
mojiferous mojiferous is offline
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Originally Posted by CherryCreek View Post
You must know a different Cap Hill, Congress Park, and Wash Park than I do. I see great variety of styles, colors and designs, even within a single block. Cookie cuter draws to mind Highlands Ranch where you have six colors of beige to chose from and 5 floor designs. Check out CP Live's photo spreads of Cap Hill, for example, in the My Photos section.

The old neighborhoods were not built in the same way.
I actually still live in the neighborhood, but I think CP Live's photo threads are great! However, they would be really boring if they were nothing but this, this, this and this.

Other than the larger houses, a vast majority of the older housing stock in those neighborhoods was built as part of developments (not as big as Highlands Ranch, but still planned as one) or from standard designs. I lived in a friend's basement for a few years on 13th and Elizabeth, and her house was a three-story brick built from a Sears design. The interior layout and structure was a carbon copy of some of the neighbor's houses. The difference was only in color. My point was not that the neighborhood looks bland, but that today's "everything looks the same and is built on the cheap" argument is not really valid. 100 years ago a good majority of those neighborhoods were built out using the same Denver square floor plan, in the same local brick, and at prices much cheaper than the nicer, more-unique mansions.

It was middle class housing much like all the new "ugly" stuff going up, and everyone then complained about how Denver was being ruined by cheap buildings and apartments. I know I have a Phil Goodstein book about Cap Hill where he specifically points out some of the first apartments in the neighborhood and has quotes from the paper about how they were going to ruin the city. Some things never change.

In another 70 years maybe Highlands Ranch will have mature trees, newer houses dotted in between surviving older stock, and people will have added on or painted differently.
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Last edited by mojiferous; May 12, 2015 at 6:13 PM. Reason: clarification
     
     
  #3983  
Old Posted May 12, 2015, 6:27 PM
DUPio DUPio is offline
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Originally Posted by PLANSIT View Post
This is the lot next to the DUS Hilton proposal:
What is the height limit on this parcel? Any other info?
     
     
  #3984  
Old Posted May 12, 2015, 6:42 PM
The Dirt The Dirt is offline
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Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
I think these people have always been in Denver and I know a decent number of them (a couple of the writers personally) — they are the same people who actually complain about Colfax being less shady because "it lost character" or still wish south Broadway was half-abandoned and nothing but used book stores that closed at 5pm. They're the people who fret over how "dangerous" Five Points is or how 16th St. Mall is nothing but crap but haven't been to either in years and vehemently argue against any development to turn either around.

My favorite is the attitude towards north Denver: my family and friends have lived in what is now Jefferson Park and Highland forever, my parents actually met while living at the incredibly shady white apartment building at 26th and Clay. Yet I meet people who grew up in Wash Park or Belcaro or South Park Hill or Littleton who wish LoHi was "like it used to be before it got gentrified." I sure don't. It sucks that a lot of my friends families had to move, and that the neighborhood is full of annoying yuppies that don't understand how to walk politely on sidewalks and generally act like they own everything they survey, but no one wants to live in the neighborhood it was before. At least people can use the park without worrying about gang fights breaking out, or grill out on their billion-dollar patios without a drive-by happening in front of them… I would rather have a city full of stucco-covered stick builds than a place dotted with random empty lots, burned-out buildings full of crackheads, and shops that close after dark because the dealers on the corner scare them away.

But it is easier to mourn the loss of the neighborhood that used to be cool but they never went after dark than it is to admit that the way the neighborhood used to be wasn't some kind of working-class utopia.

It's also easier to dismiss everything about new architecture than to admit that maybe people moving here and enlivening the city is a good thing too (and that the balance is the hard part that we should be talking about. )

It's easier to complain about the current infill than to admit that 95% of Cap Hill, Congress Park and Wash Park are cookie-cutter 100-year old+ brick houses that were designed with cost in mind, and that when they were cheap and mostly rentals a good majority of the landlords could care less what happened to them and a large number of the buildings were falling apart.

Reality doesn't get front page Westword articles because it isn't cool or sensational or hark back to a time when the author was in a terrible band and hung out at Muddy's.

This could be the start of a great counter article. How about sending this to the Denver Post as an op-ed piece.
     
     
  #3985  
Old Posted May 12, 2015, 7:03 PM
mr1138 mr1138 is offline
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Originally Posted by mojiferous View Post
I actually still live in the neighborhood, but I think CP Live's photo threads are great! However, they would be really boring if they were nothing but this, this, this and this.

Other than the larger houses, a vast majority of the older housing stock in those neighborhoods was built as part of developments (not as big as Highlands Ranch, but still planned as one) or from standard designs. I lived in a friend's basement for a few years on 13th and Elizabeth, and her house was a three-story brick built from a Sears design. The interior layout and structure was a carbon copy of some of the neighbor's houses. The difference was only in color. My point was not that the neighborhood looks bland, but that today's "everything looks the same and is built on the cheap" argument is not really valid. 100 years ago a good majority of those neighborhoods were built out using the same Denver square floor plan, in the same local brick, and at prices much cheaper than the nicer, more-unique mansions.

It was middle class housing much like all the new "ugly" stuff going up, and everyone then complained about how Denver was being ruined by cheap buildings and apartments. I know I have a Phil Goodstein book about Cap Hill where he specifically points out some of the first apartments in the neighborhood and has quotes from the paper about how they were going to ruin the city. Some things never change.

In another 70 years maybe Highlands Ranch will have mature trees, newer houses dotted in between surviving older stock, and people will have added on or painted differently.
Excellent post, I think you're exactly correct. A friend of mine who lives in the Speer neighborhood mentioned that he recently noticed that a row of 4 adorable Victorian houses on his street are in fact exactly the same house, just in different colors and with slightly different patterns of ornamentation along the cornice line. You are right that these were, in fact, basically the cookie-cutter homes of the time.

The only difference is that multiple builders were working in the same geographic area, meaning several standard models of homes may appear in a given area. At the time, I believe, the platting/development of the neighborhood was separated out from the building of the homes - as opposed to today where a developer creates a business relationship with builders and allocates many contiguous blocks to build their cookie-cutter models. Stapleton attempted to mimic the old pattern by mixing several builders together on each city block, never mixing them the same way twice, which is somewhat effective if not exactly the same as the 19th century model of selling off lots first and then letting the owners find a builder.

Your point about Highlands Ranch is interesting too. I grew up in a 1970s neighborhood of ranch homes in Boulder, and you can now see this exact phenomenon occurring. People do pop tops, scrape off the living room and replace it, scrape the entire house and start over, you name it... and never the same way twice. There are now very few homes left that are quite clearly the same model (even though there were only a dozen or so models in the beginning). Of course this requires some degree of prosperity and willingness to reinvest that not all suburbs will have. But it is an interesting process to observe.

Edit: I should note that prosperity/reinvestment isn't the only thing that leads to such a change. Depression and stagnation have worked just as well in the past. I once learned in a CO History class that the addition of multi-family structures to Cap Hill actually began after the 1893 Silver Crash and subsequent local economic depression. Many in the neighborhood lost everything and had to sell their homes, which were ultimately scraped and replaced over time with apartments that now represent just about every era of Denver architecture. I bet there are plenty of other examples too of this kind of thing happening and transforming a neighborhood for the better (in the long run - people generally don't consider a neighborhood's collapse to be a good thing in the short term).

Last edited by mr1138; May 12, 2015 at 7:38 PM.
     
     
  #3986  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 1:11 AM
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sphinx88844 sphinx88844 is offline
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Originally Posted by COtoOC View Post
I personally have no interest in Cow-anything. This isn't Ft. Worth! Let Cheyenne take all the cowboy crap up there.
I could not agree more. I'm a native and I really don't view us as a cowboy town... Maybe a mining town... But I certainly don't want people to come to denver and leave with that impression. I just visited Nashville on a business trip - and I was actually quite proud
1) how much better our city looks - comparable in pop size
2) how much more cosmopolitan Denver is.

Nashville has the country music/ music city thing down pat - but honestly I find Denvers night scene so much more vibrant.

I like where Denver is headed - a center of culture in the sea of plains and sprawl - we are the closest thing to a big city you can find in the region and although we don't have the population of Pheonix we are kicking their ass. We don't need a cheap branding campaign - our city sells itself without needing to dress it up.

Last edited by sphinx88844; May 13, 2015 at 1:17 AM. Reason: Sorry on plane - excuse my typos
     
     
  #3987  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 1:26 AM
enjo13 enjo13 is offline
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Walking around town today.. the triangle building is maybe the greatest thing ever.





     
     
  #3988  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 1:57 AM
DenvertoLA DenvertoLA is offline
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Sweet pics man. They need to get some big shade trees in there ASAP though...
     
     
  #3989  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 2:40 PM
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Great discussion. Will anybody from this group be at tonight's urbanist meetup?
     
     
  #3990  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 6:31 PM
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I see the crane base is installed for the Kimpton Hotel. It's actually on the sidewalk! I don't think I've ever seen that.
     
     
  #3991  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 6:55 PM
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Originally Posted by DUPio View Post
What is the height limit on this parcel? Any other info?
I believe it's 140'.

No other info at this time.
     
     
  #3992  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 7:21 PM
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I see the crane base is installed for the Kimpton Hotel. It's actually on the sidewalk! I don't think I've ever seen that.
Probably so they can get the clearance for a top slewing crane (common crane we see around Denver) versus having to pay MUCH more for a luffing jib crane (cool urban cranes e.g one's you see in NYC / LA / London)
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  #3993  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 7:22 PM
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Great discussion. Will anybody from this group be at tonight's urbanist meetup?
Probably after 6.
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  #3994  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 8:08 PM
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I agree that Denver doesn't need to play up its Western image. What makes Denver great is that is a rather unique combination of many things. People will have their preconceived notions about us until they actually come here. I think anyone with an open mind will see that Denver has a Western attitude, but I think it is rooted more in the beautiful landscape than in cowboy, mining, or farming. A very small percentage of the population are/and ever were involved in those industries. One thing I am particularly proud of is that Denver has a superior arts, music, nightlife, and even food scene than over rated cities like San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, and Austin. I know because I currently live in San Francisco and have lived several years in the other three cities. I grew up in Denver though. I think Denver is getting such good press around the country that it really isn't necessary to go backwards and have a "cowboy"ad campaign or something. I do like the regions cowboy, Native American, mining, railroad, etc history and I do think it should be celebrated. When I am Denver the Western sculptures around Civic Center, stone Victorians, and even kitschy things like Golden's "howdy" arch give the area slot of "old West" flavor. ������
     
     
  #3995  
Old Posted May 13, 2015, 8:22 PM
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I agree that Denver doesn't need to play up its Western image. What makes Denver great is that is a rather unique combination of many things. People will have their preconceived notions about us until they actually come here. I think anyone with an open mind will see that Denver has a Western attitude, but I think it is rooted more in the beautiful landscape than in cowboy, mining, or farming. A very small percentage of the population are/and ever were involved in those industries. One thing I am particularly proud of is that Denver has a superior arts, music, nightlife, and even food scene than over rated cities like San Francisco, Portland, Seattle, and Austin. I know because I currently live in San Francisco and have lived several years in the other three cities. I grew up in Denver though. I think Denver is getting such good press around the country that it really isn't necessary to go backwards and have a "cowboy"ad campaign or something. I do like the regions cowboy, Native American, mining, railroad, etc history and I do think it should be celebrated. When I am Denver the Western sculptures around Civic Center, stone Victorians, and even kitschy things like Golden's "howdy" arch give the area slot of "old West" flavor. ������

Nice comments, agree completely. It is ironic, when I was coming of age in 80s and 90s here, an area of concern of city promoters and chamber of commerce types was that Denver was still viewed by much of the country as a "cowtown." We've moved beyond that largely, as shown by the constant stream of national articles pointing to Denver as a model of both urban redevelopment and youthful, dynamic growth. I like the Denver we have, not some marketeer's version of a City that probably never existed anyways.
     
     
  #3996  
Old Posted May 14, 2015, 5:12 PM
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I could not agree more. I'm a native and I really don't view us as a cowboy town... Maybe a mining town... But I certainly don't want people to come to denver and leave with that impression. I just visited Nashville on a business trip - and I was actually quite proud
1) how much better our city looks - comparable in pop size
2) how much more cosmopolitan Denver is.

Nashville has the country music/ music city thing down pat - but honestly I find Denvers night scene so much more vibrant.

I like where Denver is headed - a center of culture in the sea of plains and sprawl - we are the closest thing to a big city you can find in the region and although we don't have the population of Pheonix we are kicking their ass. We don't need a cheap branding campaign - our city sells itself without needing to dress it up.
Yeah, I just don't see the "cowboy image" as anything common living in Denver. Go to Dallas/Ft. Worth and you'll see people in more "high society" circles dressing in pseudo cowboy clothing. I couldn't tell you the last time I saw someone in Denver wearing a cowboy hat and boots.

The stock show is good for the city, but it seems to me that it mostly draws people from outside Denver, and I doubt most of those true cowboys would care to live in Denver. Denver is culturally odd. Western, sort of Southwestern, ski culture, mountain culture, beer culture... all over the place really.
     
     
  #3997  
Old Posted May 14, 2015, 5:51 PM
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Denver is culturally odd. Western, sort of Southwestern, ski culture, mountain culture, beer culture... all over the place really.
After returning from a week in NYC, one thing that I really have noticed is that for the most part, people in Denver dress terribly.

Maybe this doesn't seem like a big deal to many readers of this forum, but I think it is embarrassing, and supports the "cow town" narrative
     
     
  #3998  
Old Posted May 14, 2015, 5:56 PM
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I feel like everyone may be over-thinking this just a little bit. Denver certainly doesn't need to launch some expensive marketing campaign to try and convince the world that we're all cowboys or something like that. In fact what it already does to acknowledge its western heritage is probably enough; it's not as though the old west is ignored around here. And the city is absolutely cosmopolitan and worldly enough that it doesn't have to fall back on cliches to promote itself.

That said, I also think that the city is cosmopolitan enough that it shouldn't have to run or hide from its western past either. There are plenty of very vibrant places that still embrace elements of their past that are no longer relevant except to history buffs (again, I would reference the colonial history in Boston... or perhaps the kitchy "ancient Rome" stuff I saw in Rome). Western heritage and cowboys ARE a part of Denver's history, whether we modern urban dwellers identify with it or not. And there are still plenty of people who DO identify with it just beyond the city limits.

Again, not something the city needs to actively promote, just something it should be aware of and take the opportunity to acknowledge when the opportunity presents itself. You can't tell me that stuff like this doesn't contribute to our city's charm:


Courtesy of Denverinfill.com's painted signs of LoDo series.

For example, I think it would be cool to create continuous soft-surface trails along the South Platte, and then allow recreational horseback riding. This could compliment or even be based out of the new equestrian center at the NWSS.
     
     
  #3999  
Old Posted May 14, 2015, 6:13 PM
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After returning from a week in NYC, one thing that I really have noticed is that for the most part, people in Denver dress terribly.

Maybe this doesn't seem like a big deal to many readers of this forum, but I think it is embarrassing, and supports the "cow town" narrative
Head out to Seattle, Portland, SF, Salt Lake City, Ausint, etc. and you'll see people dressed just as terribly. In Denver it's a product of the laid-back culture that is personified in what we consider to be appropriate clothing-whether work or casual. It's not necessarily bad (though I would prefer a more business-formal dress culture in Denver), but it is what it is.
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  #4000  
Old Posted May 14, 2015, 6:41 PM
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In Denver (or Portland or Seattle) everyone wears North Face. In New York (or DC or Boston) everyone wears a peacoat. Both populations do it to try and look good. They're just trying to look about different things.
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