Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 4

[delts145]

You've hit several nails on the head AjiuO. As far as shopping experiences go, there really is nothing special about Gateway. Why would the majority of the 2.5 million plus people go to Gateway when the shopping experience is much better at a Fashion Place or even now Station Park. There's no way that Gateway can compete with CCC. Even amongst the most aesthetically attractive malls here in greater Los Angeles, CCC is a cut above. There are a few attractions at Gateway that are doing well as far as visitor traffic. Other than that, as a shopping destination it no longer holds anything special.

[ajiuO]

And by the way... I don't think me and others on here are complaining about all homless people. The homless people who are stuck in a rut and trying to make their lives better are not the ones on the streets panhandling for months to years on end... And they are not the ones strung out on drugs and booze.... I think most of us complaining about worthless bums and career panhandlers... Many of witch are not even homeless...

[T-Stan]

Originally Posted by delts145

You've hit several nails on the head AjiuO. As far as shopping experiences go, there really is nothing special about Gateway. Why would the majority of the 2.5 million plus people go to Gateway when the shopping experience is much better at a Fashion Place or even now Station Park. There's no way that Gateway can compete with CCC. Even amongst the most aesthetically attractive malls here in greater Los Angeles, CCC is a cut above. There are a few attractions at Gateway that are doing well as far as visitor traffic. Other than that, as a shopping destination it no longer holds anything special.

I agree. I live in North Salt Lake and would prefer to go downtown to spend money and for entertainment. Over the past year or two, that has changed. I think I have only been to the Gateway 1-2 times in the past year. There is nothing to pull me in.

To contrast that, we find ourselves spending more time and money at Station Park and City Creek. For movies, we go to the Centerville Megaplex. Yes, Station park is shiny and new, but it also has the small-town city feel - even if it is all a facade.

If Gateway wants to succeed, scratch that, survive, it will need to do something VERY different. What about turning part of Gateway into an indoor market - like the Ferry Building Marketplace in San Francisco?

[Future Mayor]

Originally Posted by T-Stan

I agree. I live in North Salt Lake and would prefer to go downtown to spend money and for entertainment. Over the past year or two, that has changed. I think I have only been to the Gateway 1-2 times in the past year. There is nothing to pull me in.

To contrast that, we find ourselves spending more time and money at Station Park and City Creek. For movies, we go to the Centerville Megaplex. Yes, Station park is shiny and new, but it also has the small-town city feel - even if it is all a facade.

If Gateway wants to succeed, scratch that, survive, it will need to do something VERY different. What about turning part of Gateway into an indoor market - like the Ferry Building Marketplace in San Francisco?

While I like the idea of a public market at Gateway, often times market buildings are owned by the city, and don't actually turn a profit, but the city invests in them because they bring more life to the neighborhood and ultimately create sales tax, but as for the space themselves they don't usually make money. So I don't see the owners of the Gateway being very willing to create a market, unless of course they are getting market rate rents from the city and the city is the one taking the loss.

[JMK]

200 West (from N. Temple to 900 S) will be getting the makeover that 300 south recently received with protected bike lanes

• Video Link

[delts145]

^^^
That is great news, and it couldn't happen on a more needy stretch. I see this making a huge difference for future development along that corridor.

[LumberJack]

^^^
I'm looking forward to the finished street. I think the convention center's layout is one of the major reasons that street and that area of downtown is so dead. The convention center has almost created a wall-like divide separating and unintentionally creating two sides of downtown. I think this can be another reason why Gateway is struggling. It's not the main reason, but simply another issue going against any future success at Gateway.

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by JMK

200 West (from N. Temple to 900 S) will be getting the makeover that 300 south recently received with protected bike lanes

• Video Link

Wow! I must not have been paying attention, or this just came out of nowhere! I love it! I like that word 'equitable' as well. Adjust the street to the people who use it - which in this case is fewer cars and more pedestrians. I love this momentum toward protected bike lanes!

[bob rulz]

That is fantastic! I hope to see most of the downtown streets converted to that eventually. Salt Lake's wide streets and huge blocks may not be conducive to street life, but it does make street improvements such as this quite palatable and relatively easy to do compared to many other downtowns. Hopefully in 10 years these mixed-use streets are everywhere!

[asies1981]

USU students presented extensive development ideas for the Granary District.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

Why don't we have two retail centers that are partially empty then? Tennents choose CCC for a reason... It's nicer and they get more business because people like going there more. It feels safer. As somone who practicly grew up at the down town malls I can tell you that I never felt as comfortable with gateway. I loved going to crossroads and ZCMI... I tolerated gateway because they took all the cool stores... But it was never the same. It was a bad part of town where I didn't feel as safe getting to. When CCC opened and started getting some cool stores... It was a relief and a no brainer.

You are partially correct. And there are actually three retail centers downtown if you include trolley Square... Which actually seems to be getting better. But there probably isn't a demand for a mall the size of Gateway... However there is definitely a demand for more than what city Creek has to offer.... The key is doing it smart... There are several keys to the puzzl. And yes the homeless population is part of it. The area is so overwhelmed with it that it makes it feel unsafe. Another piece to the puzzle is the deterioration of the mall.. With the recent renovation of Valleyfair Mall it's easily the most rundown mall in the valley... Who wants to open a store in the mall where the escalators don't even work half of the time... I think it would be wise to reduce the amount of small retail at the mall And add 1-2 big Bo's stores... why not allow something like Kohl's or JCPenney's to be there... Instead of competing with Nordstrom and Macy's it would attract a whole new marke... Those two different types of stores are generally really good at coexisting... Also city Creek Center is really limited when it comes to its large restaurant capacity. That is something that Gateway has a lot of capacity for.... We definitely have room for more eating options because there are not enough and that's one of the biggest complaints that I hear.... So why is it that all the restaurants at gateway are closing... Well I can tell you why I don't go there anymore and why none of the people that I know go there anymore... It's the homeless people the unsafe feel of the neighborhood.. And the general rundown trashiness feel of the mall... Sure it's only a couple blocks away... But I'd rather get my car and drive somewhere else then go there... And the same goes for movies... It's not that far of a drive to Valleyfair Mall... Yeah I would rather go to Valley fair Mall then Gateway 😣

The same reason that, in the early 00s, the Gateway was The Place To Be and Crossroads and ZCMI Center were sitting empty. It wasn't because homeless people were chilling inside the two malls - it was that they weren't serving a purpose and couldn't contend with the newness of the Gateway, which, for a while, was pretty damn successful.

The reason City Creek isn't partially empty is because it offers something new and that newness, tied with the fact it's in the heart of downtown, makes it a pretty substantial draw for tourists and residents. There are some major factors for Gateway's struggles and the least is probably the homeless population.

1) As mentioned here, SLC is just not large enough to support two malls within blocks of each other. A great deal of larger cities wouldn't be able to support that, either, so, it's not entirely unique to Salt Lake City. The fact is, though, they are competing against one another and don't really compliment each other like maybe ZCMI and Crossroads did for so long.

2) It's not unique anymore. What Gateway offers is pretty much the same experience you can get at any mall in suburban Salt Lake - whether indoor or something like The District or Jordan Landing. What's the draw of the Gateway? City Creek at least offers a unique feel that you don't necessarily get in suburban Salt Lake.

3) Its location. It's still isolated from downtown. The fact is, until the bridge between Main and 300 West is complete, the Gateway will continue to be at a disadvantage. In its early days, it was able to overcome this - but nowadays? It's just too segregated from the main core that most people aren't going to venture over there. Main Street's revival has hurt Gateway for that reason - it's not as accessible. People aren't walking from Main to the Gateway because there is nothing to draw them west while they do it. That's one of the biggest knocks with that area and you could point to the homelessness but that is also a direct result of the continued neglect we've seen of that area. There's a push, of course, but much of it is just proposals and the focus continues to be Main. That's one reason I was hoping we could get the convention center hotel in this area, and that Air Center happens because we're desperately in need of that bridge.

Add those together and it's no wonder it's dying.

Gateway needs to reinvent itself. It can't be just another shopping mall with residential attached to it. The thing is, there is at least a foundation there with the Depot and the few night clubs and bars, as well as the ESA, around it.

I've maintained that it needs to look into becoming an entertainment hub. With the ESA right there, it's the perfect location for nightlife, with restaurants, bars, clubs and maybe even another liquor store (oh no!).

Just my 2 cents.

[EPdesign]

^^^I like and agree with those two cents. Point of the matter is the mall is now out dated...no help from the stucco either. However, it is there. It won't be demolished and it is still located right next to trax and the ESA. It has offices and a renaissance of residential growth around it. Personally I look at the ESA and question why didn't they do what LA has done or is doing around the staples center. It needs to be exciting. I get it. We all want the home grown shops and to keep the feel of Salt lake. Well, salt lake isn't just brick and conservative architecture. It can have lights and screens flashing. It should be where people get a dosage of technology and entertainment. Add some bars. A Denver style bowling alley. This should be a play ground for the grown ups.....at least at night. Freak.my biggest problem is the gateway looks like a depressed clown exploded leaving pastel color paint every where. The future isn't pastel Stucco. another thing is that giant wall on the south block of the Mall. If you aren't going to add greenery then put giant screens. Something to excite the senses. If people want ccc for a nice quiet day. Go there. If you want Utah grown go to trolley. If you want big city lights and flashing go to the gateway

[Marvland]

I see a lot of comments and questions on this site pertaining to the "why no high rise residential?" question and thought I'd post some interesting articles that deal with the issue. In my view, our rental market is still very early in its development. Premium inner-core land costs are still low enough in SLC ($40-70psf) that the urgency to "go high" to justify high land costs is low. Upper-end rental rates hover at around $2psf, which is low, but that's not the whole story. I spend a lot of time traveling to other cities and outside of the big boy cities, low to mid-rise multifamily construction is dominating the national market and we are not alone in our lamenting of lack of high rise multifamily.

A few things are in play right now in the low to mid-rise res boom but IMHO two of the most prominent factors are: low interest rates and fear of rising interest rates. HUD multifamily take-out loans are now booking in the high 2% range for good, new stabilized assets, well below true inflation. HUD's refi rates are really stable across markets and it's pretty much free money. Everybody knows that can't last. High-rise entitlements can gobble up the better portion of 2.5 years. That's fueled a "build while you can" mentality. The rush to get in on the action while it's still there is a very palpable thing and I think it's historically unique to this era.

On construction costs, here are a few articles that point to the issues of going high. They focus on downtown LA and DC but the majority of new MF across the country is strikingly similar to ours. LA has it's exceptions (717 Olympic, etc), but cost is a major factor:


http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/22111/a-hidden-height-limit-holds-back-affordable-mid-rise-construction-in-dc/

http://www.ladowntownnews.com/news/is-downtown-s-low-rise-building-spree-hurting-the-community/article_0e5f97ec-eb52-11e2-a694-0019bb2963f4.html

[ajiuO]

Something is going on on North Temple between 200 and 300 W. They are currently ripping all the trees down with a chainsaw. And it looks like they have a bulldozer parked in the middle of the street... I hope they're not here in the Islands out.

[ajiuO]

Maybe they're just going to use it to dig the stubs out and plant new trees

[i-215]

Originally Posted by Hatman

Wow! I must not have been paying attention, or this just came out of nowhere! I love it! I like that word 'equitable' as well. Adjust the street to the people who use it - which in this case is fewer cars and more pedestrians. I love this momentum toward protected bike lanes!

And it works well because 300 West still serves as the high-speed, high-volume thru route for vehicles.

Everyone wins!

[Hatman]

Originally Posted by i-215

And it works well because 300 West still serves as the high-speed, high-volume thru route for vehicles.

Everyone wins!

Isn't it nice when everyone wins?
A healthy downtown would be one where the blocks act like cells and the streets act like either veins or capillaries. Veins for the through-routes and capillaries for the pedestrian/cyclist oriented areas.

In my ideal version of downtown, the even numbered streets would be transit/pedestrian/cyclist oriented with cars allowed for local access, and the odd numbered streets would be oriented for car travel (with the sidewalks still oriented for pedestrians, of course). Downtown pretty well follows this pattern already; State Street (100 East) and 300 West are built for cars, while Main Street (0, pretend its even) 400 West, and 600 West all have TRAX. And now 200 West will be redesigned for pedestrians/cyclists.
Good trends, I think.

[LumberJack]

A couple questions. What work is being done on the Joseph Smith building? Also when is the completetion date for 111? Thanks.

[Future Mayor]

I couldn't agree with you any more EP, on what Gateway needs to morph into. While I haven't seen the "Denver Bowling Alley" you speak of I do know exactly what you mean, I assume to put it in a local context you are referring to something like Jupiter Bowl in Kimball Junction as opposed to a Fat Cats in Millcreek.

My point of reference to fancy bowling alleys is from my time in Cleveland, Corner Alley, the first time that I set foot in Corner Alley I wanted one in Salt Lake City. I think The Gateway would be the perfect location for that, and for an overall entertainment district, as many have mentioned. I don't know about the Denver Bowling Alley, but The Corner Alley in CLE has a bar in it as well, also upscale.

Combine the upscale alley, with another bar/club or two, a couple of local restaurants, a couple of national chain restaurants, movie theaters, Planetarium, mix in some local retail for the neighborhood residents, (cafe, small grocery, drug store, maybe even a dry cleaners) and sprinkle in a few national retailers like Victoria's Secret, Abercrombie and a couple of others, mix in the homeless issues being addressed as we speak, and you've got yourself a great destination for any night of the week and for going out after a Jazz game.

Combine the above amenities, with the new ESA Hotels, with a renewed excitement and interest in the Jazz, massive amounts of residential surrounding the Gateway, Pioneer Park and Station Center, more and bigger conventions coming to town with the CCH, (these people want to go out and have a good time while in town, no matter what night of the week it is) and you've got the recipe for a successful destination that is just what we have all talked about. Something different and it's unique to downtown.

Gateway isn't unique

[Future Mayor]

Really Lumber Jack, that's the new avatar you picked, Mayor Quimby?