Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 4

[EPdesign]

I agree with deltS.I would love to see that downtown but look at the difference in land availability between our downtown and downtown 2.0. I know we will start to see buildings Ile this when the bigger patches of properties start becoming rare.

[Comrade]

This place has jumped the shark. I love you guys but Jesus it's maddening how quickly some of you link all of SLC's woes to the homeless. Every week we return back to just how god-awful those people are and how they're ruining our city.

Truth is, they're not - they're part of the fabric of every city. Gateway isn't struggling because of the homeless people. It's struggling because SLC is too small to have two major retail centers competing with one another. We've been saying this for years and years. It was the focus of the debate around the time Gateway was opening and then the focus of the debate when City Creek was being planned.

The difference is that Gateway was supposed to hurt Main Street but because a lot was invested in Main, especially by the LDS Church, it went the other way - City Creek & Main hurt Gateway.

We just aren't big enough to have both and that struggle has nothing to do with the homelessness on the west-side of downtown. In fact, you could say the homelessness is a direct result of the failed development of that area over the last 40 years. Even still, most every major city can coexist between its population and the homeless population. Salt Lake can too. It's just one of the trade offs of living, working or retailing in a central city.

[LumberJack]

Originally Posted by Comrade

This place has jumped the shark. I love you guys but Jesus it's maddening how quickly some of you link all of SLC's woes to the homeless. Every week we return back to just how god-awful those people are and how they're ruining our city.

Truth is, they're not - they're part of the fabric of every city. Gateway isn't struggling because of the homeless people. It's struggling because SLC is too small to have two major retail centers competing with one another. We've been saying this for years and years. It was the focus of the debate around the time Gateway was opening and then the focus of the debate when City Creek was being planned.

The difference is that Gateway was supposed to hurt Main Street but because a lot was invested in Main, especially by the LDS Church, it went the other way - City Creek & Main hurt Gateway.

We just aren't big enough to have both and that struggle has nothing to do with the homelessness on the west-side of downtown. In fact, you could say the homelessness is a direct result of the failed development of that area over the last 40 years. Even still, most every major city can coexist between its population and the homeless population. Salt Lake can too. It's just one of the trade offs of living, working or retailing in a central city.

Well said Comrade. My thoughts exactly as well.

The only thing I will add is that it seems per capita, there are just slightly more homeless people in SLC than the cities of similar size to SLC that I have been to (both downtown San Antonio and downtown Austin are the two I'm referring to).

[ajiuO]

The Applebee's at gateway is now closed :/

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by ajiuO

The Applebee's at gateway is now closed :/

Sad. I use to take dates there. That's right, I was cheap.

[delts145]

LumberJack, I would be interested to see actual stats on that. From what I'm reading there is a pretty significant problem in Austin and San Antonio. It's probably not as bad as Central L.A., but I seriously doubt it's better than Salt Lake.

We often refer to Salt Lake has too small to have certain problems, but like it or not Salt Lake City is not in reality that small. Sure, it's technically only a couple hundred thousand people, but it is the focal point of many of the problems of a much larger CSA, and the crossroads go to capitol for the entire Intermountain region. For example, it might be that your not going to see as much panhandling in West L.A. or suburbia as Central and Downtown L.A., but I can assure you that Orange County, South Bay and West L.A.'s problems will usually migrate to certain areas of Central and Downtown L.A.

I think Salt Lake does an excellent job of helping those who have an inclination to help themselves. However, there needs to be some discussion about how best to help those who have serious mental issues and or addictions that are sabotoging their ability to climb out of their circumstances. This is a major problem in every city, not just Salt Lake. And then there's the 'professional panhandlers'. I think Salt Lake could make some major improvements in the department of those that prey on naïve enablers. The professional panhandling rackets are a huge problem everywhere, in Europe, Latin America, pretty much every major city in the world.

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by delts145

LumberJack, I would be interested to see actual stats on that. From what I'm reading there is a pretty significant problem in Austin and San Antonio. It's probably not as bad as Central L.A., but I seriously doubt it's better than Salt Lake.

We often refer to Salt Lake has too small to have certain problems, but like it or not Salt Lake City is not in reality that small. Sure, it's technically only a couple hundred thousand people, but it is the focal point of many of the problems of a much larger CSA, and the crossroads go to capitol for the entire Intermountain region. For example, it might be that your not going to see as much panhandling in West L.A. or suburbia as Central and Downtown L.A., but I can assure you that Orange County, South Bay and West L.A.'s problems will usually migrate to certain areas of Central and Downtown L.A.

I think Salt Lake does an excellent job of helping those who have an inclination to help themselves. However, there needs to be some discussion about how best to help those who have serious mental issues and or addictions that are sabotoging their ability to climb out of their circumstances. This is a major problem in every city, not just Salt Lake. And then there's the 'professional panhandlers'. I think Salt Lake could make some major improvements in the department of those that prey on naïve enablers. The professional panhandling rackets are a huge problem everywhere, in Europe, Latin America, pretty much every major city in the world.

We should require panhandlers to get business licenses and display a sticker that says they are a licensed panhandler.... That way people will know who the professional panhandlers are. The local authorities will be able to recognize the regulars...

[i-215]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Gateway isn't struggling because of the homeless people. It's struggling because SLC is too small to have two major retail centers competing with one another.

THIS

[Future Mayor]

Just to clarify I simply mentioned that homeless as one of many issues that is facing The Gateway, not the issue. I feel that it's simply another piece that has resulted in what we currently have as The Gateway. And yes I agree that the size of the city and region is a major issue, but when I continually hear from suburbanites, and even city residents that they don't go to the Gateway because all the homeless make is a scary and dangerous place, than it is in fact part of the problem (even if it is simply perception and not reality) not THE problem, but just a part of it.

That is why I have continued to stress that as The Depot District Grows, Gateway needs to focus on neighborhood type retail, serving both the daytime and evening local population. Trolley is obviously in a different situation, due to it's location, but even it struggled, but it seems to have turned a corner and it is a bit more focused on being a neighborhood/city destination rather than a regional.

Gateway will survive, when it's surrounding population is large enough to support it more fully. Relocated or even redesigned shelters will be a piece of that overall puzzle as well. The fact that SLC wants to help it's homeless and is taking steps to do so, is crucial to the issue, no matter the location.

I'm with you ajiuO, the 24/7 Library idea is a horrible idea.


EP and Delts hit the nail on the head regarding apartment heights. There is still plenty of land in downtown, thus why were are getting 5-7 story apartments, and Sugarhouse is getting taller apartments. When land is more scarce in downtown, as it is moving closer to becoming, heights will increase. The same thing is happening in many of the built out cities in the county, as land becomes more scarce new buildings must go vertical.

I sort of have the same opinions on multiple 7 story apartment buildings in downtown as I do multiple mid-rises. The built environment and the dispersal of people is spread out over more area, putting people on the sidewalks in a much larger area of downtown, creating vibrancy in a larger area of the city, even if at a bit less density, than creating vibrancy and huge density in one area, while other areas remain status quo.

The 10+ story apartment buildings downtown are coming, it may just not occur until the next apartment boom, or if this boom continues for several more years. Same with the "new tallest" office building, it will come, but other land has to be developed first.

[wrendog]

Living now in San Antonio and with Austin just up the road, I haven't seen much of a homeless issue downtown in either city.

[Marvland]

Originally Posted by Comrade

We just aren't big enough to have both and that struggle has nothing to do with the homelessness on the west-side of downtown. In fact, you could say the homelessness is a direct result of the failed development of that area over the last 40 years.

I agree that some of the commentary on this site is over the top, but I couldn't disagree more with you on the impact on the area. Although your sentiment might make you feel good inside, I know almost every major retail operator in the area. They are the ones risking their fortunes to be in business and I'll listen to them first. Try selling your wares and you have to shoe somebody off of your patio to keep them from defecating on it. To say that "struggle has nothing to do with the homelessness on the west-side of downtown" is simply ignorant and myopic. You want to go lease one of the truly awesome spaces on Rio Grand Street? Go ahead. You'll have a blast, but the SBA will take your house away when you're done. It's shame because the bones down there are AWESOME and especially important because we've already lost so much of our historic building stock.

I'm not a person who like to knock on the homeless population as I have been homeless myself. The word "homeless" describes a multitude of human conditions: addiction, mental illness, poor life decisions, medical issues, bad luck and everything in between. You really want to know what is really cruel? Jamming them all onto that murderous cesspit on Rio Grande street.

We have a massive homeless problem in America because in the '80's our state hospital systems were dismantled. Democrats were screaming about civil liberties and forced interment (see: One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest) and Republicans wanted to slash the budget, so we put the mentally ill on the streets (a pox upon both houses I say). Unwinding this disaster will take decades but in the meantime, the only band-aids are increased treatment, availability of healthcare and a FAIRLY AND EVENLY DISBURSED community impact. Gateway is struggling because it's pink and dated, it's inundated with homeless people, it's got a real crime problem (police contacts confirm this) and it's asking rates are too high. Not a good recipe.

[SLC Projects]

Now just remember, most of these panhandlers are NOT REALLY homeless. It's just an act they put on to make us feel sorry for them and give them money. It's not just a salt lake issue, but all over the valley. There's panhandler or two or three on just about ever freeway exit. There's at least one at every major intersection. There's a whole bunch at Valley Fair Mall right after the city spent millions of fixing that area up. If you catch these guys at the right time you will see Panhandler A switching out that same corner from panhandler B. I've seen some of the same panhandlers on the same corners going on three YEARS now. They are making it a career now. This gives our cities such a bad image of having a homeless issue, when that really isn't the case. Laws need to be pass.

[airhero]

I cannot believe how much some people in dt salt lake give to panhandlers. People are pushed over too easily. It's such an ineffective form of charity. Everyone should be educated about it. The other day I was with my parents and this guy comes up and has this story about how he ran out of money, lost his id, and he just needs so much more money for a bus ticket home. My dad gave him twenty bucks. As we turned the corner I looked back and saw he had approached a new group of people who seemed to sympathetically listen to him. And I said, dad, why did you give to him? He says, well he had a legitimate story. So I told him hey, I've heard slight variations of that same story a number of times from a bunch of different people, he's probably being dishonest. And my dad felt cheated.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Marvland

I agree that some of the commentary on this site is over the top, but I couldn't disagree more with you on the impact on the area. Although your sentiment might make you feel good inside, I know almost every major retail operator in the area. They are the ones risking their fortunes to be in business and I'll listen to them first. Try selling your wares and you have to shoe somebody off of your patio to keep them from defecating on it. To say that "struggle has nothing to do with the homelessness on the west-side of downtown" is simply ignorant and myopic. You want to go lease one of the truly awesome spaces on Rio Grand Street? Go ahead. You'll have a blast, but the SBA will take your house away when you're done. It's shame because the bones down there are AWESOME and especially important because we've already lost so much of our historic building stock.

I'm not a person who like to knock on the homeless population as I have been homeless myself. The word "homeless" describes a multitude of human conditions: addiction, mental illness, poor life decisions, medical issues, bad luck and everything in between. You really want to know what is really cruel? Jamming them all onto that murderous cesspit on Rio Grande street.

We have a massive homeless problem in America because in the '80's our state hospital systems were dismantled. Democrats were screaming about civil liberties and forced interment (see: One Flew Over the Cuckoos Nest) and Republicans wanted to slash the budget, so we put the mentally ill on the streets (a pox upon both houses I say). Unwinding this disaster will take decades but in the meantime, the only band-aids are increased treatment, availability of healthcare and a FAIRLY AND EVENLY DISBURSED community impact. Gateway is struggling because it's pink and dated, it's inundated with homeless people, it's got a real crime problem (police contacts confirm this) and it's asking rates are too high. Not a good recipe.

Speaking of going over the top...

Seriously, Gateway's struggles have nothing to do with the homelessness of that area. If you did away with every single homeless person on the western part of downtown, Gateway would be just as doomed as it is currently,

Yes, we have a big issue with homelessness in America - but that has nothing to do with the Gateway's struggles. Its struggles are a direct result of Salt Lake not being large enough to handle two retail centers.

The Gateway was undone by City Creek. It was doing just fine in its initial creation - and crime was bad, then, too.

[Viperlord]

Nashville leaders visit Salt Lake City for ideas

http://www.tennessean.com/story/money/20...ers-visit-salt-lake-city-ideas/26399951/

Salt Lake City, Utah, is booming.

On Sunday, nearly 120 Nashville leaders flew to Salt Lake City, Utah, to study how the city and region are tackling the same problems Nashville faces. They are corporate executives, educators, developers, transit directors, hotel managers, bankers, elected officials and mayoral candidates, each taking notes on how the Western city's approach could translate locally.

[LumberJack]

Originally Posted by Viperlord

Nashville leaders visit Salt Lake City for ideas

http://www.tennessean.com/story/money/20...ers-visit-salt-lake-city-ideas/26399951/

Salt Lake City, Utah, is booming.

On Sunday, nearly 120 Nashville leaders flew to Salt Lake City, Utah, to study how the city and region are tackling the same problems Nashville faces. They are corporate executives, educators, developers, transit directors, hotel managers, bankers, elected officials and mayoral candidates, each taking notes on how the Western city's approach could translate locally.

Very cool. Thank you for sharing. Nashville along with Salt Lake City, Columbus, Portland, Austin, San Jose, and Raleigh, to me seem like they are the the next group of cities that will be paving the way and setting examples for other cities. They all are becoming modern and fast growing cities with a lot to offer now and in the future.

[bob rulz]

Portland is already well ahead of those other cities. I think Portland is the model that all mid-sized cities in the U.S. should be following, and many cities have already been following Portland as an example for years now. There are only a handful of cities I would choose to leave Salt Lake for, and Portland is one of them (San Francisco and New York are in that list, too, but obviously those are in a whole other league). That said, I'm married to Salt Lake City for the foreseeable future and I'm alright with that. I love seeing how this city has grown even in the last 5 years or so.

And Comrade, I agree with you about Gateway. The homelessness in that area was always a problem, but that didn't stop Gateway from being incredibly successful for a full decade. But since foot traffic has decreased as vacancy rates increase, the homelessness has simply become more visible, and since there's a newer, shinier shopping center just a few blocks to the east, that perception of it has only increased.

[delts145]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

Just to clarify I simply mentioned that homeless as one of many issues that is facing The Gateway, not the issue. I feel that it's simply another piece that has resulted in what we currently have as The Gateway. And yes I agree that the size of the city and region is a major issue, but when I continually hear from suburbanites, and even city residents that they don't go to the Gateway because all the homeless make is a scary and dangerous place, than it is in fact part of the problem (even if it is simply perception and not reality) not THE problem, but just a part of it.

That is why I have continued to stress that as The Depot District Grows, Gateway needs to focus on neighborhood type retail, serving both the daytime and evening local population. Trolley is obviously in a different situation, due to it's location, but even it struggled, but it seems to have turned a corner and it is a bit more focused on being a neighborhood/city destination rather than a regional.

Gateway will survive, when it's surrounding population is large enough to support it more fully. Relocated or even redesigned shelters will be a piece of that overall puzzle as well. The fact that SLC wants to help it's homeless and is taking steps to do so, is crucial to the issue, no matter the location.

I'm with you ajiuO, the 24/7 Library idea is a horrible idea.


EP and Delts hit the nail on the head regarding apartment heights. There is still plenty of land in downtown, thus why were are getting 5-7 story apartments, and Sugarhouse is getting taller apartments. When land is more scarce in downtown, as it is moving closer to becoming, heights will increase. The same thing is happening in many of the built out cities in the county, as land becomes more scarce new buildings must go vertical.

I sort of have the same opinions on multiple 7 story apartment buildings in downtown as I do multiple mid-rises. The built environment and the dispersal of people is spread out over more area, putting people on the sidewalks in a much larger area of downtown, creating vibrancy in a larger area of the city, even if at a bit less density, than creating vibrancy and huge density in one area, while other areas remain status quo.

The 10+ story apartment buildings downtown are coming, it may just not occur until the next apartment boom, or if this boom continues for several more years. Same with the "new tallest" office building, it will come, but other land has to be developed first.

I pretty much agree as do most with everything you've stated Future Mayor. We could just say that Gateway's demise is the result of a perfect storm. However, I hope that everyone realizes that the demise is a temporary result of the ongoing and very welcome evolution of Downtown Salt Lake. As you have pointed out often, Gateway's point of attraction is seriously mismatched with reality and must change it's pro forma. Let's just hope that the next owner will have deeper pockets and a more passionate commitment to the local community. Gateway can either be out front of the evolution of the West side or redevelop only as an answer to the eventual growth that is occurring. It would be great if Gateway's future owners would invest the right amount to lead the way. That would cause Gateway to not only turnaround faster, but would move the redevelopment of the West side along at an even faster clip.

It wouldn't hurt to get that damn CCH up and going either. Bring in the bigger conventions more frequently please...NOW! I imagine Omni knows full well Salt Lake's potential to be a major convention draw. Perhaps, as has been suggested, the property issue is a little complicated. After all, we are being a lot more demanding than say a Phoenix or many other past contenders have been.

[jedikermit]

I don't know that this is anything new in terms of information about Regent Street for us, but it's nice to get some details and official announcements and stuff:

From hookers to headlines to hip, Salt Lake City block about to make news again

By TONY SEMERAD | The Salt Lake Tribune | First Published Apr 26 2015 08:24AM


A once-notorious Salt Lake City back street appears destined for some artistic respectability.

Right next to construction of the new performing-arts center on Main Street, the city is launching a $12.8 million face-lift for Regent Street, Orpheum Avenue and a disused service alley off Main to be dubbed Regent Walk.

If the plans come true, the renovation will transform what was once called Commercial Street — home to the city's red-light district, complete with brothels, taprooms, gambling halls and later, several newspapers — into the nexus of an emerging downtown arts district.

The project is meant as an appealing complement to the $110 million, 2,500-seat George S. and Dolores Doré Eccles Theater, under construction at 135 S. Main St., while adding an inviting and walkable north-south corridor between the Gallivan Center and City Creek Center.

Initial work begins in May on converting the run-down midblock segments — tucked between Main and State streets and stretching from 100 South to 200 South — into an intersecting trio of tree-lined, pedestrian-friendly thoroughfares with retail shops, restaurants and a public plaza.

The aim is to have city upgrades, new public art and a series of city-subsidized improvements by private property owners in place when the Eccles playhouse opens in 2016.

(more at the article, including four renderings...)

http://www.sltrib.com/home/2425621-155/from-hookers-to-headlines-to-hip

[ajiuO]

Originally Posted by Comrade

Speaking of going over the top...

Seriously, Gateway's struggles have nothing to do with the homelessness of that area. If you did away with every single homeless person on the western part of downtown, Gateway would be just as doomed as it is currently,

Yes, we have a big issue with homelessness in America - but that has nothing to do with the Gateway's struggles. Its struggles are a direct result of Salt Lake not being large enough to handle two retail centers.

The Gateway was undone by City Creek. It was doing just fine in its initial creation - and crime was bad, then, too.

Why don't we have two retail centers that are partially empty then? Tennents choose CCC for a reason... It's nicer and they get more business because people like going there more. It feels safer. As somone who practicly grew up at the down town malls I can tell you that I never felt as comfortable with gateway. I loved going to crossroads and ZCMI... I tolerated gateway because they took all the cool stores... But it was never the same. It was a bad part of town where I didn't feel as safe getting to. When CCC opened and started getting some cool stores... It was a relief and a no brainer.

You are partially correct. And there are actually three retail centers downtown if you include trolley Square... Which actually seems to be getting better. But there probably isn't a demand for a mall the size of Gateway... However there is definitely a demand for more than what city Creek has to offer.... The key is doing it smart... There are several keys to the puzzl. And yes the homeless population is part of it. The area is so overwhelmed with it that it makes it feel unsafe. Another piece to the puzzle is the deterioration of the mall.. With the recent renovation of Valleyfair Mall it's easily the most rundown mall in the valley... Who wants to open a store in the mall where the escalators don't even work half of the time... I think it would be wise to reduce the amount of small retail at the mall And add 1-2 big Bo's stores... why not allow something like Kohl's or JCPenney's to be there... Instead of competing with Nordstrom and Macy's it would attract a whole new marke... Those two different types of stores are generally really good at coexisting... Also city Creek Center is really limited when it comes to its large restaurant capacity. That is something that Gateway has a lot of capacity for.... We definitely have room for more eating options because there are not enough and that's one of the biggest complaints that I hear.... So why is it that all the restaurants at gateway are closing... Well I can tell you why I don't go there anymore and why none of the people that I know go there anymore... It's the homeless people the unsafe feel of the neighborhood.. And the general rundown trashiness feel of the mall... Sure it's only a couple blocks away... But I'd rather get my car and drive somewhere else then go there... And the same goes for movies... It's not that far of a drive to Valleyfair Mall... Yeah I would rather go to Valley fair Mall then Gateway 😣