Canada's 'housing bubble' deemed close to bursting

[dleung]

Originally Posted by sunsetmountainland

Do not answer the question dlueng! You will be blamed for starting an aristocracy in canada.

Lol but I did answer his question, he just ignored it cuz it didn't fit into his butthurt narrative. In fact I was way more generous to his interrogation than Robert Downey jr was the other day

Originally Posted by dleung

My dad's a unionized contractor, we bought the family house when it was $400K, and we contribute about $3-5K to charity around every thanksgiving... while "hiding behind our high gates and hedges" and siphoning funds back to Red China, of course.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by dleung

Lol but I did answer the question, he just ignored it cuz it didn't fit into his butthurt narrative

You didn't really provide a counterexample to what other people have argued though, which is that few people living off of local wages can afford to buy into the housing market right now in the Vancouver area. Your story is that your family was able to buy years ago when houses were maybe 40% the cost of what they are now (depending on where that $400k house is or what it was like, it may have appreciated more or less).

Would your father be able to afford the same house today with a comparable wage?

[dleung]

I didn't say there isn't an affordability problem, just that there's clearly a xenophobe problem here

[st7860]

Originally Posted by lio45

Situation #1: an elderly couple (let's make them ethnic Chinese in this example since you like to insist on making this about race) own a Vancouver SFH free and clear as of April 2015. The house is worth $2 million as of April 2015. It was bought in the '70s and the mortgage was eventually paid off.

Situation #2: someone owns a Vancouver SFH free and clear as of April 2015. The house is worth $2 million as of April 2015. The owner arrived recently from the PRC. The owner bought the house for ~$2 million, cash, recently.


Surely you see a difference other than race between the two situations even though fundamentally they can both be summed by "someone owns a Vancouver house free and clear right now"...?

I mean, you can see why people might consider Situation #2 to be, at least marginally, more of a "problem" than Situation #1?

The property taxes from both homes pay for city services, and for the occasional person that keeps an empty home, thats even better, since they're paying for services they dont' use

[lio45]

Originally Posted by dleung

I didn't say there isn't an affordability problem, just that there's clearly a xenophobe problem here

If you agree that there's an affordability problem... then don't you think it can be observed that a certain group from a certain area have been a significant contributing factor to the current affordability problem?

That affordability problem you say there is... what are, in your opinion, the causes for it? Just curious.

Some of you are really ultra-sensitive. If it's a fact that nearly all the taxi drivers in a given city are of one single ethnicity, then it's a fact. It should be possible to observe that fact, and mention it, without automatically being considered as implying that they should all be booted out of the country or something.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by someone123

You didn't really provide a counterexample to what other people have argued though, which is that few people living off of local wages can afford to buy into the housing market right now in the Vancouver area.

I did not read all the posts before this. So I am sorry if this has already been mentioned.

But, this is also seen in the Toronto area. And the theory is that many of the people buying homes are not really working in Canada. Many families have the father working back in the countries they immigrated from, and sending money over to Canada to pay for things.
So that is why, even in Toronto, there are neighborhoods with $800,000 dollar homes, but only median incomes of like $50,000. Because most families maybe have the full time working parent making big sums of money in another country.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by lio45

If you agree that there's an affordability problem... then don't you think it can be observed that a certain group from a certain area have been a significant contributing factor to the current affordability problem?

That affordability problem you say there is... what are, in your opinion, the causes for it? Just curious.

Some of you are really ultra-sensitive. If it's a fact that nearly all the taxi drivers in a given city are of one single ethnicity, then it's a fact. It should be possible to observe that fact, and mention it, without automatically being considered as implying that they should all be booted out of the country or something.

Richmond Hill and Markham Ontario have more Chinese per capita the Vancouver (city) does. So why does not the same example of housing price distortion exists in those cities versus Vancouver?

[theman23]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

I did not read all the posts before this. So I am sorry if this has already been mentioned.

But, this is also seen in the Toronto area. And the theory is that many of the people buying homes are not really working in Canada. Many families have the father working back in the countries they immigrated from, and sending money over to Canada to pay for things.
So that is why, even in Toronto, there are neighborhoods with $800,000 dollar homes, but only median incomes of like $50,000. Because most families maybe have the full time working parent making big sums of money in another country.

This is not a large scale issue, and the vast majority of these families do not make enough money to easily afford $800,000 houses. Outside of some parts of East Asia and the Middle East, there aren't many high paying jobs in the third world.

As to your example, no such neighbourhood exits. If there are neighbourhoods with a median income of $50,000, then the vast majority of the residents are living- not the $800,000 houses. There may be a discrepancy between median incomes and housing prices(though no where near to the point you've claimed), but that is much more easily explained by a)retirees b) people who bought their houses over a decade ago and c) new home owners with large mortgages.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by osmo

Richmond Hill and Markham Ontario have more Chinese per capita the Vancouver (city) does. So why does not the same example of housing price distortion exists in those cities versus Vancouver?

It does exist in Markham. Standard suburban homes on large lots in Unionville are selling for well over $1million dollars to be torn down for new homes.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by dleung

I didn't say there isn't an affordability problem, just that there's clearly a xenophobe problem here

And do you think money from Mainland China is contributing to that problem?

[st7860]

Only Canadian residents get a tax free exemption on their own residence so foreign money is unlikely to be a concern and even if someone does buy a property it doesnt matter. let them pay property taxes etc,.

[ssiguy]

The difference between Van and Tor in terms of downtown housing costs and demography is that Vancouver allows the wholesale destruction of homes in the city itself where Toronto {or any other city in the country for that matter} doesn't.

Vancouver city has so much flipping and hence is ultra expensive because houses are bought and sold but never to be lived in but just ripped down. In Toronto if you want a large new house you buy in the burbs but in Vancouver you buy a house in the city and rip it down, there are no restrictions, Vancouver allows and even encourages it and Vancouver's historic registry is nearly none existent for homes themselves.

This has resulted in a huge demographic shift in the city where the wealthy Westside is becoming overwhelmingly Chinese. It would be a kin to Outremonte and Westmount or Rosedale and Forest Hill being levelled and having it's demographic makeup completely changed in a generation.

Not only does it ghettoize but also results in a total shift of the power base and influence in the city. The Chinese actually don't out number the South Asians by very much but the difference in political, economic, and social power is profound. Not only are these areas effected but so is the architectural integrity of the areas. Now many younger people are fleeing their rentals in the Westside and moving to the more interesting Eastside even if their rent isn't any cheaper. Many are feeling unwelcome in the Westside due to not being Chinese and the once vibrant area has become quite sedate, sterile, and even unpopulated as so many homes are vacant yet brand new after a housing demolition.

[st7860]

Vancouver has limitations and requirements for tearing down a home, especially if it is very old. The home does not have to be on a special heritage list to have those requirements. Rent in the East Side of Vancouver is around $700 to $900 for a 1 br unit, cheaper than that on the West Side. For people that do not like seeing visible minorities walking around, Vancouver and Surrey BC is not for you.

[mistercorporate]

What's happening in Vancouver is quite unfortunate and sad, especially since it's a city (and part of a province) I have fond memories of. What confuses me is, what exactly are people doing to reverse this issue? Why aren't people lobbying their representatives and if they are what is being done? Vancouver has so much going for it, I really felt it was a city ethnically divided between new Chinese immigrants and everyone else (20 years ago), it seems to have become much more divided now. The problem is not a particular ethnic group, the problem is policy not encouraging diversity with social and economic harmony. I've always felt that if Vancouver had Toronto levels of ethnic harmony and had more well paying white collar jobs it would be kicking so much 🞵🞵🞵 and be damn near perfect. What's the end game here?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

If you agree that there's an affordability problem... then don't you think it can be observed that a certain group from a certain area have been a significant contributing factor to the current affordability problem?

That affordability problem you say there is... what are, in your opinion, the causes for it? Just curious.

Some of you are really ultra-sensitive. If it's a fact that nearly all the taxi drivers in a given city are of one single ethnicity, then it's a fact. It should be possible to observe that fact, and mention it, without automatically being considered as implying that they should all be booted out of the country or something.

Yeah. On this I like post 18 here by kool maudit.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=7002486#post7002486

I mean, we're in a world where it's considered insulting to point out differences, where sports announcers refer to the colour of boxers' shorts in order to distinguish them when one is black and one is white, or one is Asian and one is European.

Saying that ''Canada is mainly white" or ''Germany is German'' or ''most people are straight'' is somehow akin to saying we are going to put together a mob to kill everyone who does not fit that description. Given a lot of the history I can understand why some people are sensitive but sometimes just relaxing can be a good thing too.

[st7860]

I don't feel sad that I can't buy a brand new 3000 square foot home near the University of Brtish Columbia. Last year the Vision Vancouver party was re-elected without a problem. Typical of politics though when information came out that the mayor of Vancouver was dating a non caucasian woman, a firestorm arose like what happened in Toronto with the Mayor a year ago

[mistercorporate]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah. On this I like post 18 here by kool maudit.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=7002486#post7002486

I mean, we're in a world where it's considered insulting to point out differences, where sports announcers refer to the colour of boxers' shorts in order to distinguish them when one is black and one is white, or one is Asian and one is European.

Saying that ''Canada is mainly white" or ''Germany is German'' or ''most people are straight'' is somehow akin to saying we are going to put together a mob to kill everyone who does not fit that description. Given a lot of the history I can understand why some people are sensitive but sometimes just relaxing can be a good thing too.

I get where you're coming from and I'm far, far from being politically correct, probably one of the most openly politically incorrect in my circles (though I like to think I'm only that way about factual matters and not in a completely subjective knee jerk sort of way). From my observations, I don't think many people behaving in such an uptight way are denying the existence of these differences. I think it's all part of a concerted plan by those from the broader left and progressive voices in general to try to steer society into a more enlightened direction. The fruits of this are already starting to become evident. It's quite stunning when one hangs out with teenagers these days, they're far less racialized and far less likely to make gay jokes than they did just 10 year ago. There's also far less sensitivity, gender insecurity (less feelings of 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 possessiveness and scarcity) and more pragmatism regarding identity/nationalism.

It used to be that if one extremist from one particular ethnicity/religion/philosophy (we'll call it Group A) made derogatory or inflammatory comments about another (Group B) community, that people would be quick to jump on that comment as being characteristic of Group A people and reinforce it with further insults directed back at that collective rather than that individual, thus leading to a never ending negative chain of events.

Nowadays, if said individual from Group A made such a remark, people from both Group A and B are likely to chime in not with remarks directed at either group, but remarks directed at that individual. Often, it isn't to denigrate that instigator, but to ask him, where he gained such limiting beliefs and innacurate perspective. An effort will be made to elicit his thoughts and disect his beliefs and experiences and break down an action plan to progress and elevate his behaviour and thought process. It's all so much more mature and balanced than what we of an older generation are used to (granted these people have other flaws, that of being soft and sheltered as all hell). Everyone has their own sufferings and negative experiences, it's easy to be desensitized to the touchy subjects of others while being oversensitive to our trigger points. Many of the people who are the most insensitive in communicating also have their own triggers that they are particularly sensitive about (myself included). While we may not be as over concerned about navigating around particular PC topics, I think we can all agree that those doing the "heavy lifting" of moving society in a progressive and inclusive direction are making life a little bit more comfortable for ourselves and our future generations.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by st7860

I don't feel sad that I can't buy a brand new 3000 square foot home near the University of Brtish Columbia. Last year the Vision Vancouver party was re-elected without a problem. Typical of politics though when information came out that the mayor of Vancouver was dating a non caucasian woman, a firestorm arose like what happened in Toronto with the Mayor a year ago

LOL, hardly a "firestorm" and what controversy existed resulted from the revelation that the squeaky clean green image of Mayor Moonbeam hid just another sad middle aged perv who ditched his wife of many years for a plaything half his age.

Oh, and his squeeze, Wanting Qu (I kid you not) turns out to have a tiger mom just busted on anti-corruption charges in Mainland China. How apropos.

[someone123]

Originally Posted by lio45

If you agree that there's an affordability problem... then don't you think it can be observed that a certain group from a certain area have been a significant contributing factor to the current affordability problem?

I think this is a reasonable question, but it doesn't quite get at the heart of what's going on here. I don't think it matters in the least if the people driving up real estate prices through investment buying are Chinese, Congolese, or the whitest people on earth, whoever those are. It wouldn't really matter if they were Canadian either; I think it can be bad as well when there are neighbourhoods of marginalized renters (who never have the chance to fully participate in the economy) that get pushed out of their homes through gentrification.

What's relevant is that we have these strange social taboos that are shutting down debate and, as a result, making parts of our economy easy to manipulate. It's not clear what's going on with Vancouver housing or if it's good for the people who live here. A similar mystery has been playing out with temporary foreign workers.

[st7860]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think this is a reasonable question, but it doesn't quite get at the heart of what's going on here. I don't think it matters in the least if the people driving up real estate prices through investment buying are Chinese, Congolese, or the whitest people on earth, whoever those are. It wouldn't really matter if they were Canadian either; I think it can be bad as well when there are neighbourhoods of marginalized renters (who never have the chance to fully participate in the economy) that get pushed out of their homes through gentrification.

What's relevant is that we have these strange social taboos that are shutting down debate and, as a result, making parts of our economy easy to manipulate. It's not clear what's going on with Vancouver housing or if it's good for the people who live here. A similar mystery has been playing out with temporary foreign workers.

The guy who wrote that post on tumblr a we weeks ago that everyone knows about regarding the decline of Vancouver posted something else today. He's saying increase property taxes because that will reduce the need for gas and sales taxes, since gas and sales hurt the poor?(he didnt hear about the GST/PST credit?) and he doesn't like the translink referendum either since its the 'wrong way' to fund translink. He's gunning for Quebec too.