Canada's 'housing bubble' deemed close to bursting

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by rbt

No, I mean tax avoidance. Most people investing with a higher than average income often have a much lower income when they take the money out.

Money invested is off your top income tax bracket and comes out at a lower tax bracket (subject to tax law change between those 2 time periods). The discounted amount of tax paid is much lower.

Gosh, where are you getting your financial concepts from? Avoidance means you don't pay any taxes at all. Deferral means you pay it later.

If someone earning $55K puts $10K in RRSP, they might get a $3K break. Over a few of decades that $10K might grow to $40K and will get taxed more than $3K when it's taken out, especially because it may also bump up a person's pension/CPP/OAS income to higher brackets. It all works out as a "savings account" for the government for future tax revenue, plus have citizens who are less dependent on the state for welfare.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

Gosh, where are you getting your financial concepts from? Avoidance means you don't pay any taxes at all. Deferral means you pay it later.

If someone earning $55K puts $10K in RRSP, they might get a $3K break. Over a few of decades that $10K might grow to $40K and will get taxed more than $3K when it's taken out, especially because it may also bump up a person's pension/CPP/OAS income to higher brackets. It all works out as a "savings account" for the government for future tax revenue, plus have citizens who are less dependent on the state for welfare.

And RRSP earnings count against income-tested benefits, so depending on how successful one's RRSP investments were, the government could also claw other benefits back in addition to the withdrawals being taxed.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by cornholio

You think wealthy immigrants contribute? Work hard? Work smart? Wealthy immigrants should be avoided. Educated middle class immigrants regardless of wealth should be the target group.
You see this is why I have strong socialist leanings even though I have done well for my self. Inequality is not a good thing.

Now we are way of topic. Maybe start a new thread on immigration policy. I just take great offense to your description of "poor immigrants" given the fact I am one and I dam well contribute. But you know who I often never see contribute? Yeah wealthy immigrants who just leech of off everyone else's hard work.

I'm the socialist... I want the government to milk wealthy immigrants orders of magnitude more than they currently do. You don't want them here at all because they "leech off" everyone else... you mean like with their high income/property tax, and minimal use of utilities and services?? Is it an extension of that reverse euphemism thing where I'm not "working" class due to success at my work? Admit it, it's the sight of white retirees selling their rotting bungalows to be transformed into $10 million houses for Asian families that offends you. And their houses will leak more than the rotting bungalows according to your buddy

You mentioned "not for people like him" 5 times regarding the future of a neighbourhood your "brother" is "leaving", even though he doesn't care whether prices go up, or remain stable. Xenophobic message is loud and clear

[dleung]

Also had a good laugh at the "ill-gotten gains by wealthy Chinese/HongKong immigrants vs the legit gains by wealthy western immigrants" angle... never heard that one before

Of the 400,000 Chinese in Vancouver, how many do you think are "money-laundering" tax-evading crime lords who circumvent immigrations Canada with their wily cunning and buying up $20 million houses that you could've otherwise afforded?

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Nathan

And RRSP earnings count against income-tested benefits, so depending on how successful one's RRSP investments were, the government could also claw other benefits back in addition to the withdrawals being taxed.

This is the important part. A immigrant is unlikely to be able to build up a pension before they retire and will have to rely on GIS/OAS/CPP for survival (about $1300 a month). Any RRSP's they take out just get deducted from their GIS/OAS. So say you take out $12,000 out of your RRSPS's. And your combined GIS/OAS is $1,000 a month, they claw that back and you end up getting something like $300 a month. So now your $12,000 in RRSP's is only $3,500. You literately piss away $8,500 of your savings, they disappear, their gone. Thats also ignoring the fact that if you want to live like a human being you need to push your self into a income tax bracket and your RRSP's get taxed on top of it.

Now if you have a pension that pays you out say $4,000 a month you don't get GIS/OAS. RRSP's in this case are good, your $12,000 in RRSP's ends up being say $9,000 in cash instead of only $4,000.

RRSPS's are bad for poor people, and certainly bad for people starting in Canada later in life (say 30 plus). Really the whole program is a sham that should be reformed.

As for dleung...no point in even commenting beyond the fact that developing countries are corrupt, in corrupt countries you make money through corruption, its why inequality in developing countries is so high and in western countries is so low, specifically European countries...corruption income equality

*keep in mind all my calculations are back of napkin type and are only meant to give one a idea of the reality.

[dleung]

The corruption of a country's government is hardly indicative of individual merit in an immigration application, but whatever.... that map shows Hong Kong - where most of Vancouver's Chinese are from - being less corrupt than France, Spain, Italy, and every Western country east of Germany. But let's not let the facts get in the way of a horrifying heartstring-tugging scene for any resentful old-timer:

[SignalHillHiker]

God. Must be nice to have the problem of too many immigrants, or enough to be picky and choosy about where they come from.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by dleung

The corruption of a country's government is hardly indicative of individual merit in an immigration application, but whatever.... that map shows Hong Kong - where most of Vancouver's Chinese are from - being less corrupt than France, Spain, Italy, and every Western country east of Germany. But let's not let the facts get in the way of a horrifying heartstring-tugging scene for any jealous old-timer:

Your a 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.

If a bunch of ALbertan's were doing what they are doing in Halifax no one would stand for it.

They get away with 🞵🞵🞵🞵,, because everyone is afraid of being called racists.

That's the reality.

its china for 🞵🞵🞵🞵 sakes.

You have to be delusional or clueless to trust where chinese money is coming from.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by dleung

The corruption of a country's government is hardly indicative of individual merit in an immigration application, but whatever.... that map shows Hong Kong - where most of Vancouver's Chinese are from - being less corrupt than France, Spain, Italy, and every Western country east of Germany. But let's not let the facts get in the way of a horrifying heartstring-tugging scene for any resentful old-timer:

Only 820 people came from Hong Kong in 2011 (too lazy to find more recent stats but their probably even lower). On the other hand 28,696 people came from China. Given that the median URBAN income in China is sub $3,000 per year (rural is lower) and by the looks of it in my neighbourhood a majority of them are able to buy million dollar homes with cash I assume they are not the middle class type which begs the question how they are accepted in the first place? I mean their not going to be skilled professionals for the most part because they would not be able to earn that sort of money in a communist China. Anyways Hong Kong has low corruption, and the people coming here from Hong Kong in the 90's and 80's were of a much higher quality and contributed to the country, no doubt about it. Its why they are also starting to vacate Vancouver. You won't find many Hong Kongers happy with whats currently happening, because they know what is happening.
immigration
You keep trying to turn this into a race issue, only you. I mean seriously, why? Its not a race issue. Its a immigration issue that has nothing to do with race. I dam well know how corrupt countries work, Canada is not the only place I have lived in.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by cornholio

This is the important part. A immigrant is unlikely to be able to build up a pension before they retire and will have to rely on GIS/OAS/CPP for survival (about $1300 a month).

<snip>

RRSPS's are bad for poor people, and certainly bad for people starting in Canada later in life (say 30 plus). Really the whole program is a sham that should be reformed.

I don't know where you are getting that idea. RRSPs are just a financial tool and it is there for everyone to take advantage of.

I'm first generation immigrant and my parents are definitely not wealthy. I had to get loans to go to university and I don't think I contributed into my RRSPs until I was in my 30s after paying the loans off, and with modest earnings I was only really able to put an average of $3-5K a year. But after 20 years of investing within that RRSP and despite the crash of 2008, there's about $200K in there which I'm hoping to at least double by the time I retire in a decade or so. I'm not even in the financial business and I'm a fairly conservative investor.

Now there are TFSAs that you can even use for mid-term investing that can hedge your finances if the real estate market is beyond your reach. This is not cheating the tax system, the government set these schemes up precisely so people can get ahead, take some control of their financial security and not be a burden to society later in life.

[Stryker]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Only 820 people came from Hong Kong in 2011 (too lazy to find more recent stats but their probably even lower). On the other hand 28,696 people came from China. Given that the median URBAN income in China is sub $3,000 per year (rural is lower) and by the looks of it in my neighbourhood a majority of them are able to buy million dollar homes with cash I assume they are not the middle class type which begs the question how they are accepted in the first place? I mean their not going to be skilled professionals for the most part because they would not be able to earn that sort of money in a communist China. Anyways Hong Kong has low corruption, and the people coming here from Hong Kong in the 90's and 80's were of a much higher quality and contributed to the country, no doubt about it. Its why they are also starting to vacate Vancouver. You won't find many Hong Kongers happy with whats currently happening, because they know what is happening.
immigration
You keep trying to turn this into a race issue, only you. I mean seriously, why? Its not a race issue. Its a immigration issue that has nothing to do with race. I dam well know how corrupt countries work, Canada is not the only place I have lived in.

Could you imagine if a bunch of ex CIA were buying up a sizeable amount of real estate in downtown toronto?

I'm tired of people using some trick of ultra liberal logic, to convince folk they don't get a say in their own country.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Only 820 people came from Hong Kong in 2011 (too lazy to find more recent stats but their probably even lower). On the other hand 28,696 people came from China. Given that the median URBAN income in China is sub $3,000 per year (rural is lower) and by the looks of it in my neighbourhood a majority of them are able to buy million dollar homes with cash I assume they are not the middle class type which begs the question how they are accepted in the first place? I mean their not going to be skilled professionals for the most part because they would not be able to earn that sort of money in a communist China. Anyways Hong Kong has low corruption, and the people coming here from Hong Kong in the 90's and 80's were of a much higher quality and contributed to the country, no doubt about it. Its why they are also starting to vacate Vancouver. You won't find many Hong Kongers happy with whats currently happening, because they know what is happening.
immigration
You keep trying to turn this into a race issue, only you. I mean seriously, why? Its not a race issue. Its a immigration issue that has nothing to do with race. I dam well know how corrupt countries work, Canada is not the only place I have lived in.

A one-party regime doesn't make China communist; it hasn't been for a long time, so yes, among the 1.3 billion population and among the 50,000 who were on waitlists for the investor class program with $800K ready to lend Canada, some families managed to move to Vancouver and buy houses. I'm not denying there are corrupt officials laundering their money here, just the part where you think it's so widespread that "western immigration is at a disadvantage" or that it affects affordability of the middle-income home market to any degree. Your rhetoric about "not contributing" has very little to do with money, and more to do with a "different kind of people" as you put it.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by dleung

A one-party regime doesn't make China communist; it hasn't been for a long time, so yes, among the 1.3 billion population and among the 50,000 who were on waitlists for the investor class program with $800K ready to lend Canada, some families managed to move to Vancouver and buy houses. I'm not denying there are corrupt officials laundering their money here, just the part where you think it's so widespread that "western immigration is at a disadvantage" or that it affects affordability of the middle-income home market to any degree.

But western immigration is at a disadvantage, western countries are transparent and have lower corruption and as a result immigrants from western countries are less corrupt and should be targeted more. I consider Hong Kong a western country in regards to what I consider western countries. This is not a race issue and you are trying to make it one. Once again the median wage in China is sub $3,000 per year in urban areas. We take in only 15,000 business class immigrants per year (from the world). So who are these people that come here and buy houses for cash? Where do they get their money? Riddle me that? (by the way I already know the answer)

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I don't know where you are getting that idea. RRSPs are just a financial tool and it is there for everyone to take advantage of.

I'm first generation immigrant and my parents are definitely not wealthy. I had to get loans to go to university and I don't think I contributed into my RRSPs until I was in my 30s after paying the loans off, and with modest earnings I was only really able to put an average of $3-5K a year. But after 20 years of investing within that RRSP and despite the crash of 2008, there's about $200K in there which I'm hoping to at least double by the time I retire in a decade or so. I'm not even in the financial business and I'm a fairly conservative investor.

Now there are TFSAs that you can even use for mid-term investing that can hedge your finances if the real estate market is beyond your reach. This is not cheating the tax system, the government set these schemes up precisely so people can get ahead, take some control of their financial security and not be a burden to society later in life.

Had you invested that money your self you would have been better off when you retire with more flexibility. When you start taking the money out it will be counted as income, taxed as income, and you will lose your GIS/OAS payments. Also taking out your RRSP's is not as easy as you think, you dont have full control over them. Having said that, like I said, if you have a good pension that pushes you up say over the 2k mark per month then RRSP's are good. If you don't have a pension, are not wealthy, and expect to rely on your RRSP's and CPP/GIS/OAS then RRSP's are a bad choice. Immigrants who come here generally don't end up having good enough pension plans and hence RRSP's are a bad choice for them. Just like they are a bad choice for poor people without good pensions plans.

[dleung]

Originally Posted by cornholio

But western immigration is at a disadvantage, western countries are transparent and have lower corruption and as a result immigrants from western countries are less corrupt and should be targeted more. I consider Hong Kong a western country in regards to what I consider western countries. This is not a race issue and you are trying to make it one. Once again the median wage in China is sub $3,000 per year in urban areas. We take in only 15,000 business class immigrants per year (from the world). So who are these people that come here and buy houses for cash? Where do they get their money? Riddle me that? (by the way I already know the answer)

Uh, the 15,000 you mentioned? Do you even know how many homes were sold for cash? My family bought theirs for cash, and we got here the normal way. Everyone knows that the same amount of money goes a lot further in Asian households

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by dleung

A one-party regime doesn't make China communist; it hasn't been for a long time, so yes, among the 1.3 billion population and among the 50,000 who were on waitlists for the investor class program with $800K ready to lend Canada, some families managed to move to Vancouver and buy houses. I'm not denying there are corrupt officials laundering their money here, just the part where you think it's so widespread that "western immigration is at a disadvantage" or that it affects affordability of the middle-income home market to any degree. Your rhetoric about "not contributing" has very little to do with money, and more to do with a "different kind of people" as you put it.

Yes, I'm sure it is just "regular folks" from Red China who are able to cough up $1.5 -2 million for an entry level house in Vancouver West of Main. teachers, booksellers, waitresses and the like.

[dleung]

Who said it was "regular folks"? Obviously we only let in the best and the brightest, and the least-dependent on social assistance, lol

You make it sound like waitresses and teachers are supposed to be able to afford West Side houses and that it's wrong for them to be priced out of the luxury market

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Had you invested that money your self you would have been better off when you retire with more flexibility. When you start taking the money out it will be counted as income, taxed as income, and you will lose your GIS/OAS payments. Also taking out your RRSP's is not as easy as you think, you dont have full control over them. Having said that, like I said, if you have a good pension that pushes you up say over the 2k mark per month then RRSP's are good. If you don't have a pension, are not wealthy, and expect to rely on your RRSP's and CPP/GIS/OAS then RRSP's are a bad choice. Immigrants who come here generally don't end up having good enough pension plans and hence RRSP's are a bad choice for them. Just like they are a bad choice for poor people without good pensions plans.

Had I invested it outside the the RRSP, the annual gains would have been subject to either income tax or capital gains tax, resulting in a current higher tax bracket. I don't think you understand the tax deferral scheme, it basically is like a reservoir of pretax income that you can grow tax-free and tap into at a controlled rate at a later time when you no longer are earning a regular income. It's precisely there for people who don't have a pension fund!

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by dleung

Who said it was "regular folks"? Obviously we only let in the best and the brightest, and the least-dependent on social assistance, lol

You make it sound like waitresses and teachers are supposed to be able to afford West Side houses and that it's wrong for them to be priced out of the luxury market

Certainly teachers and other middle income earners could have afforded the West Side 10-12 years ago. What changed, certainly not the median incomes of those declaring income to CRA in Vancouver.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by dleung

Uh, the 15,000 you mentioned? Do you even know how many homes were sold for cash? My family bought theirs for cash, and we got here the normal way. Everyone knows that the same amount of money goes a lot further in Asian households

And the truth finally comes out.

Originally Posted by dleung

Who said it was "regular folks"? Obviously we only let in the best and the brightest, and the least-dependent on social assistance, lol

You make it sound like waitresses and teachers are supposed to be able to afford West Side houses and that it's wrong for them to be priced out of the luxury market

You obviously think very highly of your self, may I ask how your "folks" earned their cash? And what do you consider getting here the normal way? I would also be curious to know if you think your folks have contributed anything to Canadian society, be honest.