Calgary International Airport II

[cyeg66]

Originally Posted by Pegasus

Is YYC now doing parallel simultaneous landings? From my downtown office window this morning I saw two planes coming in VERY close to each other from the south (perhaps only ten or twenty plane lengths apart).

All day long on VMC days, and also on IMC days when we've got an extra mouth breather to sit in as our localizer monitor. Essentially, they could be side-by-side anytime.

[thegx]

Originally Posted by Cage

The most profitable domestic legs in the AC system are in order:
1) YYZ-YVR
2) YYZ-YUL
3) YYZ-YOW
4) YYZ-YYC
5) YYZ-YHZ
7) YYC-YVR
8) YUL-YVR
9) YYZ-YEG
10) YUL-YYC

What's your source?

[Cage]

Originally Posted by thegx

What's your source?

There is no single direct source, but rather a
- Internal AC documents spanning the past 20 years.
- Discussions with AC HQ staff.
- Review of AC domestic network.
- My own experience buying air tickets, upgrading to Business Class cabin on AC.

I can also do the same for Westjet.

My source was a former low level AC manager who specifically cited AC178 YEG-YYZ as a flight that at one point was the most profitable single domestic flight in the system. Maybe that's per capita, or more likely... inaccurate.

[Canadian74]

Originally Posted by Cage

.

I can also do the same for Westjet.

Please do, what about AC Long Haul too?

[thegx]

Originally Posted by Cage

- Review of AC domestic network.
- My own experience buying air tickets, upgrading to Business Class cabin on AC.

And you think this qualifies you to make such a definitive list?

Originally Posted by thegx

And you think this qualifies you to make such a definitive list?

You miss this part?

Originally Posted by Cage

There is no single direct source, but rather a
- Internal AC documents spanning the past 20 years.
- Discussions with AC HQ staff.

But more logically, what about that list seems awry?

[thegx]

Originally Posted by Acey

You miss this part?



But more logically, what about that list seems awry?

No, but if I were to pretend to be an expert, I'd leave the last two points out. I'm sure those are the ten most profitable routes, but to pretend to know the exact order is quite humorous. The internet is full of armchair aviation experts.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by thegx

No, but if I were to pretend to be an expert, I'd leave the last two points out. I'm sure those are the ten most profitable routes, but to pretend to know the exact order is quite humorous. The internet is full of armchair aviation experts.

Review of the AC domestic network was paid consulting assignment. As was work done on Westjet and Skyservice.

Also my discussions with AC people are more professional than just a casual conversation. Network Contribution margin vs route profitability vs flight profitability were the topics at hand.

The order of the ten most profitable routes has barely changed in the past 15 years since AC/CP merger. Even then it was the inclusion of CP traffic that punched up YYz-YVR and YYC-YYZ.

Is the list in terms of profit for seat, or gross revenue for the whole route? Obviously YYZ-YUL/YVR/YOW have many more seats than YYZ-YYC.

[Cage]

here is the reasons for profitability
1) YYZ-YVR, large o/d demand, vancouverites going to Europe and torontonian going to the pacific contribute to this route being the most profitable in the AC system. Widebody travel and premium for paid J travel.
2) YYZ-YUL, prior to the merge, this was AC most proftitable run. Flights every half hour on the peak time and hourly on the off peak. Widebody flights, additionally there was a large number of change requests and the associated fees. Paid J travel and walk up fares are the norm.
3) YYZ-YOW, see above for the other rapid air route metrics. Plus lots of short notice travel and large number of connections to Europe, Asia and USA.
4) YYZ-YYC, calgarians going to Europe and eastern USA/Canada, large number of change fees and paid j travel.
5) YYZ-YHZ, YHZ is the collector for maritimes. Widebody flt YYZ-YHZ-LHR has moderate.amount of through traffic. Large number of 320 flts per day with good yields due poor market penetration from competitors.
7) YYC-YVR, calgarians going to Asia. Large number of o/d traffic with good margins. Tough competition on route and competitor with many competing inbound codeshares to Asia have depressed yields.
8) YUL-YVR, vancouverites goin to Europe and montrealers going to Asia. Moderate amount of o/d traffic. Good yields able to justify widebody aircraft.
9) YYZ-YEG, Edmontonians going to Europe. admittedly this route has suffered the most due to competition from Westjet and now European airlines. Yields are under pressure. Plus poor market acceptance of the brand in YEG. Finally, the rise of Yyz-YMM has depressed yields.
10) YUL-YYC, improved route over the past 5 years due to YYC connections to Europe. Summertime traffic up to five flights per day. Yields moderate.

The honourable mention goes to YEG-YVR. Tough competition poor market reception on the YEG side. Depressed yields. Competition has owned the market.

Another honourable mention goes to YWG-YYZ. Good amount of o/d and connection traffic. Yields slightly depressed as AC has greater need to get Airbus to YWG for Mtce, however this reason has decreased over the past few years as ACTS imploded. Tough competitor in the market.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Acey

Is the list in terms of profit for seat, or gross revenue for the whole route? Obviously YYZ-YUL/YVR/YOW have many more seats than YYZ-YYC.

Gross profit for the whole route. The problem with per seat is that yields on connection traffic get depressed when the domestic run is significantly shorter than international portion. To overcome this calculation there are several methodologies.

[VIce]

Originally Posted by Cage

here is the reasons for profitability
1) YYZ-YVR, large o/d demand, vancouverites going to Europe and torontonian going to the pacific contribute to this route being the most profitable in the AC system. Widebody travel and premium for paid J travel.
2) YYZ-YUL, prior to the merge, this was AC most proftitable run. Flights every half hour on the peak time and hourly on the off peak. Widebody flights, additionally there was a large number of change requests and the associated fees. Paid J travel and walk up fares are the norm.
3) YYZ-YOW, see above for the other rapid air route metrics. Plus lots of short notice travel and large number of connections to Europe, Asia and USA.
4) YYZ-YYC, calgarians going to Europe and eastern USA/Canada, large number of change fees and paid j travel.
5) YYZ-YHZ, YHZ is the collector for maritimes. Widebody flt YYZ-YHZ-LHR has moderate.amount of through traffic. Large number of 320 flts per day with good yields due poor market penetration from competitors.
7) YYC-YVR, calgarians going to Asia. Large number of o/d traffic with good margins. Tough competition on route and competitor with many competing inbound codeshares to Asia have depressed yields.
8) YUL-YVR, vancouverites goin to Europe and montrealers going to Asia. Moderate amount of o/d traffic. Good yields able to justify widebody aircraft.
9) YYZ-YEG, Edmontonians going to Europe. admittedly this route has suffered the most due to competition from Westjet and now European airlines. Yields are under pressure. Plus poor market acceptance of the brand in YEG. Finally, the rise of Yyz-YMM has depressed yields.
10) YUL-YYC, improved route over the past 5 years due to YYC connections to Europe. Summertime traffic up to five flights per day. Yields moderate.

The honourable mention goes to YEG-YVR. Tough competition poor market reception on the YEG side. Depressed yields. Competition has owned the market.

Another honourable mention goes to YWG-YYZ. Good amount of o/d and connection traffic. Yields slightly depressed as AC has greater need to get Airbus to YWG for Mtce, however this reason has decreased over the past few years as ACTS imploded. Tough competitor in the market.

Just out of curiosity, which domestic routes regularly see widebody aircraft? YYZ to YVR, YUL, YYC, and YHZ? Is that it?

[Cage]

Originally Posted by VIce

Just out of curiosity, which domestic routes regularly see widebody aircraft? YYZ to YVR, YUL, YYC, and YHZ? Is that it?

YYZ-YVR about 5-8 per day
YYZ-Yyc about 1-2per day.
YYZ-YHZ 1per day.
yyz-YUL 2-4 per day
Yvr-YUL 1 per day.

Also
YYZ-lax 1 per day.
YYZ-SFO 1per day
YYZ-las 1rouge per day.
YVR-las 1 rouge per day.
Yvr-Lax 1rouge per day.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Canadian74

Please do, what about AC Long Haul too?

Currently in Edmonton, I will see what I can get together for WestJet domestic route system. The Westjet assignment was from about 7-8 years ago.

With regard to AC longhaul. doing international is a lot harder than domestic simply because there are so few domestic routes to rank. International routes have a lot of single daily operations. Finally, apportioning the revenue on international is a lot more subjective than domestic. Take for instance a routing of SCL-YYZ-HND, SCL-YYZ may look like a poor performer because of the larger segment YYZ-HND.

Also there are much greater variation on profitability of certain international routes owing differences in economic and tourist traffic patterns. For example recession in Europe and opening tourist traffic in China will swing the rank of route profitability.

[Johnny Aussie]

With KLM postponing YEG indefinitely and allegedly pax being re-routed through YYC tells me:

1) The YEG flights wouldn't have been that full and /or;
2) The YYC flights wouldn't have been that full either if they can accommodate them

http://globalnews.ca/news/1888709/klm-suspends-direct-flight-to-edmonton-until-further-notice/

KLM's press statement

http://news.klm.com/klm-is-postponing-its-new-route-from-amsterdam-to-edmonton/

[yyc_engineer]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

With KLM postponing YEG indefinitely and allegedly pax being re-routed through YYC tells me:

1) The YEG flights wouldn't have been that full and /or;
2) The YYC flights wouldn't have been that full either if they can accommodate them

Press release talks about labour disputes - any truth to this or just a cover for them not wanting to start service?

Edit: read some more on the issue, seems there are legit labour issues with the unions. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by yyc_engineer

Press release talks about labour disputes - any truth to this or just a cover for them not wanting to start service?

Edit: read some more on the issue, seems there are legit labour issues with the unions. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

The labour issues are legitimate, however they are also management created.

If the unions agree to management's proposal, then 250+ fewer flights attendants are required at KLM for the summer schedule. However the unions are not agreeing to management proposal. In planning for the summer schedule, Management had anticipated the unions would be in agreement and therefore did not hire more Flight Attendants for summer 2015.

Summer 2015 is about to go into affect and KLM now finds itself short 250 flight attendants. The new YEG-AMS route was cut to help with the FA shortage.

Based on the above information, I am now thinking we are looking at a potential for July start at the earliest. It is apparent that Management will not get all the productivity improvements they desire. Therefore some hiriing for flight attendants will have to occur. It takes about one months for training and indoctrination process plus a 2 week hiring process. Additionally, there will have to be 2-3 weeks for any tentative agreement (which KLM and the unions do not yet have) to be ratified. Overall we are looking at 2.5 months process once a tentative agreement is completed.

I don't believe KLM will begin YEG-AMS on May 19th unless something else occurs (e.g. KLN cuts other flights to free up staff in order to open YEG).

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by yyc_engineer

Press release talks about labour disputes - any truth to this or just a cover for them not wanting to start service?

Edit: read some more on the issue, seems there are legit labour issues with the unions. Will be interesting to see how this plays out.

Yes, I never doubted this is the root cause. However, just like UA and its cuts... KLM has plenty of cost/profit software at its disposal that spits out what can be cut with the lowest impact on their bottom line. They wouldn't be cutting high yielding flights. I reckon Toronto cuts are assisted by the fact there is more than one flight per day on most days.
How long this goes on is anybody's guess. KLM has stated publicly it is on hold indefinitely but first flight showing as 19 May (as is indicated on airlineroute.net). I would expect the route will be cut in periods of two weeks ongoing until this is resolved.

[YYCguys]

Originally Posted by Cage

I took a look at WestJet.com seat selection page and did notice there is something at row 5 and 6. Row 5 is missing the Center seats. Also I did some analysis of seat pitch per row and compared the results to AC rouge. Compared to ACr, the WS seat configuration is missing 34 inches before the over wing exit rows. This suggests there is a mid cabin galley on the WS 763.

There will only be one forward and one aft galley on the WS 763, no mid cabin galley. There are 7 washrooms on the aircraft. Unfortunately, this is all I know.