Metro Vancouver Transportation & Transit Plebiscite

[ssiguy]

I think the tax will fail and I'm starting to think it should.

When the new Pattula is opened and it's toll will be ATLEAST as much as the PM, that will mean that drivers from Surrey who once drove across the bridge free are going to be paying $1800/year in tolls. Imagine if everyone in Vancouver was told their insurance rates were about to double or more, how many would be on board the transit tx train then?

No one should have to pay for a toll on an existing roadway, period. The only truly fair way to spread the pain is gas taxes or higher license plate fees/registration. They could certainly help lower income people and encourage more fuel efficient cars but varying the rates ie $25 for motorcycle/scooter, $50 for electric/hybrid, $75 for 4 cylinder, $100 for 6 cyl, $125 for an 8 cyl. per year.

I agree with transportation taxes but if they are not levied in a far manner then I have a real problem. Frankly I'm not sure how I will vote. My brother and sister {who both live in WR/SS} feel the same way.............they agree with improved transit and special taxes to pay for it but feel people S. of F. are having to pay a much higher rate due to having to pay the sales tax and the tolls. Both are financially comfortably and neither take transit or even cross the bridges very often but both see the need for better transit but feel that they shouldn't be especially penalized because they live on another side of a river.

[Kisai]

Well, Christie Clark just threw the Mayors under the metaphorical bus and I think the plebiscite is now doomed.

http://www.surreyleader.com/news/291461951.html

Premier Christy Clark says the possible defeat of a proposed 0.5 per cent sales tax by the No side in this spring's referendum on transit expansion might force Metro Vancouver mayors to raise TransLink's property tax instead.

TransLink already collects $305 million per year – $238 per average home assessed at $719,000 – from its dedicated property tax, which is charged on homes and businesses in addition to municipal and school property taxes.

The premier told reporters Friday the mayors could still raise that if voters reject the sales tax because her 2013 election promise to subject any new TransLink revenue source to a referendum didn't apply to greater use of existing taxes.

"If they decide they do want to build transit without a Yes vote in this referendum, mayors will have to fall back, I guess, on the existing funding mechanism that they have," Clark said at an event in Surrey.

"They have always had the ability to raise money for transit through increasing property taxes and I suppose that would be one of the options available to them if the referendum fails."

Clark said she will personally vote Yes as the owner of a home in Vancouver and added talk of defeat may be "hypothetical" because mayors are very confident of success.

Clark and successive transportation ministers have repeatedly said mayors could increase property taxes if they wished to avoid a referendum.

Just to add:
https://infogr.am/translink_property_tax_by_municipality

[GeeCee]

From reading some of the recent posts in this thread, you'd almost think that this was a referendum on bridge tolling.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Well, Christie Clark just threw the Mayors under the metaphorical bus and I think the plebiscite is now doomed.

http://www.surreyleader.com/news/291461951.html

That's old news which I brought up back in February 7, page 15 of this thread. Funny you didn't notice my post...

But yeah, looking at your chart, I do prefer the property tax option. Christy's comments actually gave me some peace of mind that transit expansion will still happen regardless of the referendum outcome.

Granted West Vancouver is "screwed" but I guess you can say its payback for getting the "free" Sea to Sky upgrade which benefits them immensely (of course, some from that area would say otherwise but meh). Besides...from the article...

A $600,000 house in Langley would pay just under $200 in tax to TransLink, while a similar home in Vancouver might have an assessment and tax bill two or three times higher. (The rate for TransLink's tax is currently $0.3315 per $1,000 assessed value.)

[Pinion]

I have to admit the whole "we'll raise property taxes instead" thing has me leaning more towards no. Especially if it means they'll also pick and choose the best investments like Broadway and Pattullo rather than do stupid 🞵🞵🞵🞵 like LRT.

Also interesting to see the City of North Van is third in condo value. SSPers love other suburban town centres (New West/Metrotown) but if it wasn't for my homerism there wouldn't be a peep about the area.

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Granted West Vancouver is "screwed" but I guess you can say its payback for getting the "free" Sea to Sky upgrade which benefits them immensely (of course, some from that area would say otherwise but meh). Besides...from the article...

I wouldn't say Sea to Sky benefits West Vancouverites any more than anyone else except maybe that they can afford to go to Whistler more often? It starts at Horseshoe Bay in case that isn't clear, and Hwy 1 is more of a travel-through route for others while West Van residents go north-south to Lions Gate. West Van would happily demolish that whole stretch and build a 50 foot tall wall on Taylor Way if they built an alternate road to Whistler up Capilano road or something.

If they tolled it, it would hurt Squamish more than anyone, which is a blue collar town full of people with modest incomes - basically the Surrey of the northwest.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Well, Christie Clark just threw the Mayors under the metaphorical bus and I think the plebiscite is now doomed.

http://www.surreyleader.com/news/291461951.html



Just to add:
https://infogr.am/translink_property_tax_by_municipality

Call me a cynic, but I always thought she would do what ever she could to sabotage a Yes vote....as long as it could not be proven...oops did I say that? Todd Stone must be knashing his teeth.

[Gordon]

Maybe the Mayors had a point when they said No! to a property tax hike to fund Translink expansion. The property tax bite may be less than Toronto & Montreal, but neither of those cities have a 17cent \l gas tax for transportation funding.

What is needed here is leadership from Victoria. Legislate and be done with it

Christe Clark has said Tax issues should not be handled through a referendum.

[WarrenC12]

Can the mayors council pass a property tax increase without a unanimous vote? So the dirty poor SOF can force tax increases on the creme de la creme of West Van?

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

I think the tax will fail and I'm starting to think it should.

When the new Pattula is opened and it's toll will be ATLEAST as much as the PM, that will mean that drivers from Surrey who once drove across the bridge free are going to be paying $1800/year in tolls. Imagine if everyone in Vancouver was told their insurance rates were about to double or more, how many would be on board the transit tx train then?

The new Pattullo will be tolled whether or not the plebiscite passes.

But what a yes vote means is there will be options for people living in Surrey, North Delta, and Langley such that they won't need to pay the tolls. They'll have the option to use improved transit to get across the Fraser. I'm not just talking about LRT, I'm talking about improved bus service and improved SkyTrain service. Both of those can be implemented quickly and early in the 10-year plan.

Basically, if you look at the Pattullo the choices are this: vote no and you'll get a new Pattullo initially paid for by property taxes, and it will be tolled. There will probably be increased volume over the Pattullo because commuters have fewer transit-oriented options. Vote yes and you'll get a new Pattullo initially paid for by the 0.5% increase, and it will be tolled. Commuters will have a choice between driving and having improved transit options, so the volume over the new Pattullo will not grow as fast as for the 'no' option.

Both are financially comfortably and neither take transit or even cross the bridges very often but both see the need for better transit but feel that they shouldn't be especially penalized because they live on another side of a river.

There's a trade-off between living north of the Fraser and living south of the Fraser. One gets you higher property values, higher property taxes, better transit service, and no tolls. The other gets you lower property values, lower property taxes, worse transit service, and tolls. When people move south of the Fraser, they're making that decision. They've chosen larger yards in exchange for longer and more expensive commutes.

That said, one can easily see the increased density along the SkyTrain corridor. Should Surrey and Langley get the LRT, you can reasonably assume that you'll see the same sort of growth. This doesn't just mean residential, it also means commercial growth, which means there'll be more jobs and more opportunities for people living south of the Fraser to be able to work south of the Fraser. Not having the LRT or improved transit south of the Fraser makes that a little tougher to accomplish.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

There's a trade-off between living north of the Fraser and living south of the Fraser. One gets you higher property values, higher property taxes, better transit service, and no tolls. The other gets you lower property values, lower property taxes, worse transit service, and tolls. When people move south of the Fraser, they're making that decision. They've chosen larger yards in exchange for longer and more expensive commutes.

You say it as if people have choices. Maybe those who live in South Surrey or those acreage in Langley, but for the most part, most people who live South of Fraser do so because they CANNOT AFFORD to live North of Fraser due to a bajillion circumstances.

Originally Posted by Pinion

I have to admit the whole "we'll raise property taxes instead" thing has me leaning more towards no. Especially if it means they'll also pick and choose the best investments like Broadway and Pattullo rather than do stupid 🞵🞵🞵🞵 like LRT.

Well, there you have it! I think we should vote "No" so the mayors / region has more say on what gets built next. Essentially they have more control on choosing the "best investments".

Originally Posted by Gordon

Maybe the Mayors had a point when they said No! to a property tax hike to fund Translink expansion. The property tax bite may be less than Toronto & Montreal, but neither of those cities have a 17cent \l gas tax for transportation funding.

The mayors don't have a point. They just don't want to raise the property tax to pay for more Translink stuff, they just want to keep it for themselves so they can put their own "🞵🞵🞵🞵" projects within their cities at their whim, whether they be the bike lanes, tearing down Georgia viaduct, that office tower in New West, and so on. Not that all of those are bad (the office tower is a wise investment of course.... ) but at the end of the day, its really about saving their own bacon rather than genuinely helping the region.

Besides...

Canada's Highest, Lowest Property Tax

The Real Property Association of Canada (REALpac) has released new numbers on property tax rates across the country, and of major cities surveyed, Vancouver came in with the lowest property tax rate.

Vancouverites typically pay $3.68 per year in taxes for every $1,000 of assessed home value. Compare that to residents of Regina, who pay $13.69 for every $1,000 of home value.

[WarrenC12]

Once again, the majority seems to have no clue how property taxes are set.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

When the new Pattula is opened and it's toll will be ATLEAST as much as the PM, that will mean that drivers from Surrey who once drove across the bridge free are going to be paying $1800/year in tolls. Imagine if everyone in Vancouver was told their insurance rates were about to double or more, how many would be on board the transit tx train then?

Sorry to break this to you, but you're getting that tolled crossing either way - whether you vote yes or no. The bridge is falling down. Your options are $1800/year in tolls, or no bridge at all. The current Patullo wasn't paid for with a money tree. It was tolled for 25 years.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Can the mayors council pass a property tax increase without a unanimous vote? So the dirty poor SOF can force tax increases on the creme de la creme of West Van?

Translink can raise it 3% a year without a vote.

Obviously to get from where it is to where they want their projects to go forward would require near doubling what it is currently (305 million currently.)

The problem really is, we're trying to build stuff too fast because previous governments didn't build anything but bridges... and they built all the bridges around the same time so they're ALL falling apart this decade. Maybe we should just demolish the bridges instead of replacing them and THEN ask the populace how to pay for it? Several years of extreme congestion instead of building at the same time the old bridge would still have useful life left.

In 30 years we're going to be having these same arguments again over the Skytrain and whatever gets built in Surrey, and the kids then will be cursing us for building all this stuff at the same time.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Translink can raise it 3% a year without a vote.

Obviously to get from where it is to where they want their projects to go forward would require near doubling what it is currently (305 million currently.)

Even if they nearly double the current property tax, based on the Real Property Association of Canada, the property tax for Vancouver would still be half that of Regina! So its something that is doable, and its still cheaper than other parts of the country. Its very reasonable, LETS DO IT!!!!

[go_leafs_go02]

https://twitter.com/News1130radio/status/565590487005163520

News1130 @News1130radio
.@TransLink says it will make an "important announcement" at a 1 p.m. press conference today. News1130 will have a reporter there.

Ian Jarvis has stepped down. Doug Allen will take over on an interim basis.

[Vancity]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

https://twitter.com/News1130radio/status/565590487005163520



Ian Jarvis has stepped down. Doug Allen will take over on an interim basis.

wonder if the new guy will do a better job than jarvis.

[Kwik-E-Mart]

Originally Posted by Vancity

wonder if the new guy will do a better job than jarvis.

At least the yes side got rid of one major lightning rod. We'll see what happens next.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Vancity

wonder if the new guy will do a better job than jarvis.

Lets go the CTF route and pay them $50k, see how that works.

[Gordon]

I wonder if there are more changes coming. Translink should do something to get the compass card system going even if it means a single fare for buses(interim basis ) to get everything working, one less thing for people to 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 about.

[WBC]

Originally Posted by Kwik-E-Mart

At least the yes side got rid of one major lightning rod. We'll see what happens next.

I would take this to mean that their internal polls are showing they are losing the referendum so they want to shake things up.