Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[lio45]

Originally Posted by ue

Adopted as a cultural symbol, not adopted the sugar maple reserves. God, you can be so technical.

No, I got what you meant, I was simply pointing out that national / cultural symbols generally just happen... they're rarely actively chosen. Well, sure, every national symbol became official at some point by some act of adoption of it by the legislature, but my point is that you often could see it coming. In many cases, even before human settlement.

Let's say a province is carved out of the Parkland area of AB; would you be surprised if it later decides to adopt the Aspen as their provincial tree? I would kinda say the symbol's always been there... it might have been formally adopted later, but it was still very much a symbol pre-adoption. And sure, they actually "chose" it, but in fact, they didn't choose it at all, it was just there already... if you get what I mean.

I'm pretty sure we agree, no need for us to nitpick that further

[ue]

Originally Posted by lio45

No, I got what you meant, I was simply pointing out that national / cultural symbols generally just happen... they're rarely actively chosen. Well, sure, every national symbol became official at some point by some act of adoption of it by the legislature, but my point is that you often could see it coming. In many cases, even before human settlement.

Let's say a province is carved out of the Parkland area of AB; would you be surprised if it later decides to adopt the Aspen as their provincial tree? I would kinda say the symbol's always been there... it might have been formally adopted later, but it was still very much a symbol pre-adoption. And sure, they actually "chose" it, but in fact, they didn't choose it at all, it was just there already... if you get what I mean.

I'm pretty sure we agree, no need for us to nitpick that further

What's more surprising is that a place like Parkland County, Alberta has adopted a cultural symbol for a type of tree no where near native to the area (the maple leaf).

[SignalHillHiker]

I'd never want us to be in a political union with just the Maritimes, and that's definitely the dominant opinion here. It's come up in a few threads, and the other Newfoundlanders have all lost their minds at the thought.

But throwing in New England makes it an interesting proposition. You'd have two spheres of power/influence then - Halifax and Boston. We'd still be on the sidelines, of course, as we are in Canada today... but the field would be smaller, the game closer. Politically, it could be Heaven-sent. The possibility is there for such a place to still produce a Bush or a Harper, of course... but it would be extremely unlikely that they'd do as well as they can in Canada/U.S. as a whole.

I'd definitely be open to the latter.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I'm among those who avoid it like the plague, FWIW...

BTW, and I think it's quite a telling fact, I personally know of at least two families of nearly entirely unilingual francophones who go on vacation yearly to that little Québécois corner of Florida; they're pretty much doomed to stick to that area for their time under the sun because they speak only French.

I know a ton of people like this as well.

My wife also had relatives (now deceased) who also spent their latter years in Florida in one of those Petit Québec areas.

Yes... unilingual Franco-Ontarians. They do exist. Or did exist anyway...

[Acajack]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGwH-b367_o&feature=kp

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I know a ton of people like this as well.

My wife also had relatives (now deceased) who also spent their latter years in Florida in one of those Petit Québec areas.

Yes... unilingual Franco-Ontarians. They do exist. Or did exist anyway...

Yep. If you're a (retired) unilingual francophone, the four most hospitable places on this continent are most of Quebec, select parts of Ontario and NB, and that little corner of Florida.

Other places (like the previously-discussed Lower Mainland of BC) will almost certainly require some degree of English in daily life, even as a retiree.

[ue]

SHH, you might find this interesting:

Rural area north of Coutts, Alberta.

Rural area south of Sweet Grass, Montana.

These two areas are 20 minutes apart.

[lio45]

Interesting! Wow, the difference is striking! Is that just the result of irrigation?

I thought I had more or less experienced personally the typical Great Plains scenery of Southern Alberta by driving through Montana on the horizontal axis... but, nope.

AB looks less exotic than I thought... I loved the barren open spaces of Montana.

[SignalHillHiker]

Very cool, UE! The colours are so different.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by ue

What's more surprising is that a place like Parkland County, Alberta has adopted a cultural symbol for a type of tree no where near native to the area (the maple leaf).

OK, well, that's most definitely a case of "adoption" of a symbol. (As opposed to the more typical "official acknowledgement" of a symbol that has already imposed itself as a symbol.)

I would say I find it a bit weird, but... why not.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

But throwing in New England makes it an interesting proposition. You'd have two spheres of power/influence then - Halifax and Boston. We'd still be on the sidelines, of course, as we are in Canada today... but the field would be smaller, the game closer. Politically, it could be Heaven-sent. The possibility is there for such a place to still produce a Bush or a Harper, of course... but it would be extremely unlikely that they'd do as well as they can in Canada/U.S. as a whole.

FYI, if that happened, you can be sure that Boston would be the sole center of power, totally dwarfing Halifax.

I agree that St. John's would be less on the sidelines than with today's Canada, though. Same likely applies to Halifax. And pretty much everywhere else within the entire Atlantic region.

[SignalHillHiker]

Well, you're probably right. But I still think... Halifax is a regional power even now - and I can only picture it being more important in a smaller federation, much closer to a much smaller main population base.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Well, you're probably right. But I still think... Halifax is a regional power even now - and I can only picture it being more important in a smaller federation, much closer to a much smaller main population base.

New England, 15 million;
Greater Boston, 7.5 million. Haliwhat?

But we agree that every single place within today's Atlantic Canada would have a greater weight in that "country"... it's just that, instead of being utterly dwarfed and ignored by Nonatlantic Canada like it currently is, it would be still very dwarfed (and still somewhat ignored) by New England. I mean, don't expect the legislature to be alternating between Boston and Halifax.

[SignalHillHiker]

Oh no, absolutely not. Seeing the numbers spelled out is obvious. So much of it doesn't feel that much more populated, but it logically is.

[Boris2k7]

Originally Posted by lio45

New England, 15 million;
Greater Boston, 7.5 million. Haliwhat?

But we agree that every single place within today's Atlantic Canada would have a greater weight in that "country"... it's just that, instead of being utterly dwarfed and ignored by Nonatlantic Canada like it currently is, it would be still very dwarfed (and still somewhat ignored) by New England. I mean, don't expect the legislature to be alternating between Boston and Halifax.

Somewhat tangential, but this brings up the whole issue of a Canada without Quebec. It's no secret that some Albertans feel that the province would be elevated, which is true except... Southern Ontario would be even more dominant in such an arrangement. Alberta would lose a key ally on constitutional issues, so the centralizing tendency of Ottawa would be more difficult to resist.

[ue]

Originally Posted by lio45

Interesting! Wow, the difference is striking! Is that just the result of irrigation?

I thought I had more or less experienced personally the typical Great Plains scenery of Southern Alberta by driving through Montana on the horizontal axis... but, nope.

AB looks less exotic than I thought... I loved the barren open spaces of Montana.

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Very cool, UE! The colours are so different.

It's really only right beside the border that Alberta resembles this (ie walking distance from the border). But even still, as this scene from in Coutts shows, the town itself is groomed and green. Sweet Grass doesn't have this, and still looks dried out.

Alberta farmers just have more money which allows them to create massive irrigation systems and more importantly, buy huge sprinklers. Those sprinklers are fairly common pieces of scenery from the highway in Southern Alberta to keep the crops hydrated, but they're basically non-existent in Central Alberta because its more lush and naturally green here.

Just in case you think the natural geography does a complete 180 at the 49th parallel, we do have this dried out, semi-arid environment, but you have to go to less agriculturally-focused areas like Drumheller to find it, though even there, it looks a bit greener because there still are farms in the area. Here's an example of the landscape around Drumheller, in the Alberta Badlands.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Boris2k7

Somewhat tangential, but this brings up the whole issue of a Canada without Quebec. It's no secret that some Albertans feel that the province would be elevated, which is true except... Southern Ontario would be even more dominant in such an arrangement. Alberta would lose a key ally on constitutional issues, so the centralizing tendency of Ottawa would be more difficult to resist.

Interesting point. Removing Quebec, though, would probably increase the importance of the West, of which Alberta would be the dominant portion.

For Atlantic Canada, it's a little more dire. The most dangerous change would be the loss of a large, left-wing province. What's left of Canada without Quebec would be far more Conservative than could ever be acceptable here.

But a lot of things could work out. Quebec has no pressing need to work with Atlantic Canada on issues such as borders, trade, etc. But it does with Ontario - so there'll be incentive on both sides to come to agreements that, indirectly, could lessen the geographic divide between Atlantic Canada and ROC.

The downside is that this likely won't turn Halifax into Canada's main east coast port because everything would still have to go through Quebec, so they might as well just use Quebec ports.

In my estimation, that would have been the only huge positive consequence for Atlantic Canada.

For us, depending on whether or not there's renewed conflict over Labrador, Quebec's independence would presumably null their lease at Churchill Falls and return control of the power to us. The development of Lower Churchill and the lines connecting it to NL, NS, NB, and the U.S. would ensure it wasn't worthless to us to have sole control of it.

The downside for us is that, although no mechanism to allow this legally currently exists, if Labrador is given a choice, they would never go with us or with Quebec.

If it came down to just Quebec and Newfoundland leaving, you'd easily get 90% plus of Labrador's population voting to stay with ROC. And you could probably trim ROC down to just Ontario before that number dropped below 80%.

[MonkeyRonin]

Originally Posted by lio45

New England, 15 million;
Greater Boston, 7.5 million. Haliwhat?

Greater Boston: now including the entire state of Rhode Island, most of Massachusetts, and half of New Hampshire.





(this is why the rest of the world thinks CSAs are silly)

[lio45]

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

Greater Boston: now including the entire state of Rhode Island, most of Massachusetts, and half of New Hampshire.

To be fair, Boston is largely the main reason explaining why the extreme southeast of NH is that populated. Had Boston never been there at all in the first place, those areas of NH would not be anywhere nearly as dense as they nowadays are.

I also would like to mention that I did not invent anything here, I just took the official figure for Greater Boston. I don't personally care how big or how small Boston is. You can disagree with the definition if you want, but if you've ever been to Rhode Island you are aware that it's within Boston's sphere of influence. (It's true that using that "influence" definition though, nearly all of Southern Ontario would be "Greater Toronto".)

But it doesn't change my original point at all, which was that Boston >> Halifax. For Halifax to even come close, you have to define a Greater Greater Greater Halifax stretching to, and including, Montreal and its suburbs.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by lio45

Both Acajack and I have never ever heard of anyone from Quebec retiring to BC.

(Florida, though, plenty.)

I'm sure there are at least a couple Québécois who retired to Tajikistan, out of 8 million Québécois in all, and maybe someone from there knows a couple, but I've never heard of anyone retiring there.

I've been to Vancouver... in two weeks, I did not meet a single fellow Québécois.

I go to Florida regularly. I keep bumping into Québécois over there. Especially if I decide to go to some areas in particular where there are huge Québécois communities; in Ft Lauderdale, you just can't escape them. Desjardins has branches there, they finance properties over there (only in that area, though); do they have branches in BC? If they don't, then obviously there are way less Québécois retirees there than in Florida.

Well hmm, who's going to know more about what's going on in BC, you and Acajack, or someone actually in BC who checks IDs all day?

I wouldn't presume to know more about your home town than you do. Your stubbornness on this is strange.

Vancouver and Victoria are barely anything more than retirement resort towns like Ft Lauderdale. A lot of Canadians want to stay in Canada, and when they do, they often come here.

Not taking away anything from Ft Lauderdale, I'm sure you're right about it, but this absolute refusal to believe Quebecois would come to Vancouver is baffling. My condo's maintenance guy is Quebecois. The closest tire store is owned by a Quebecois. My wife works with a few - it's not an exotic thing to run into one and I hear tons of people speaking French on public transit.

Oh and I am a Desjardins member myself.