Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

Quebec and Newfoundland are an exception, though. Quebec feels noticeably different, so much so that it does feel a bit foreign to me. This is despite there being historical and residual ties between Quebec and Anglo Canada. Today, I would say Anglo Canadians in general do have more in common with Americans than French Canadians, but have more in common amongst each other than with Americans for the most part. I.e. Alberta and Idaho are more similar than Alberta and Quebec, but Alberta and Manitoba are more similar than Alberta and Idaho.

This is kind of an explosive thing to say on here and in other circles.

Personally, my views are a bit divided on the issue. In some ways Canadians regardless of language have more in common with each other than Americans, and in other ways Anglo-Canadians and Americans almost seem like one people, with French Canadians definitely on the sidelines. And strangely enough French Canadians also have some characteristics that Americans also have but that Anglo Canadians do not (exuberance, boisterousness, cocksuredness about cultural identity, etc.)

But sure, Gatineau and Ottawa do feel more different from each other than St. Stephen, NB and Calais, ME do, or even Brockville, ON and Watertown, NY.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by ue

How does Fort Lauderdale have anything in common with Quebec beyond general North American or Western culture? And how is the city at all Francophone? It's in the USA!

You might as well ask, how does Richmond BC have anything in common with China beyond general Pacific Rim culture? And how is the city at all Mandarinophone? It's in Canada!

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Pinion

This is nonsense. Vancouver and Victoria are packed full of retired Quebecois and other eastern Canadians.

Both Acajack and I have never ever heard of anyone from Quebec retiring to BC.

(Florida, though, plenty.)

I'm sure there are at least a couple Québécois who retired to Tajikistan, out of 8 million Québécois in all, and maybe someone from there knows a couple, but I've never heard of anyone retiring there.

I've been to Vancouver... in two weeks, I did not meet a single fellow Québécois.

I go to Florida regularly. I keep bumping into Québécois over there. Especially if I decide to go to some areas in particular where there are huge Québécois communities; in Ft Lauderdale, you just can't escape them. Desjardins has branches there, they finance properties over there (only in that area, though); do they have branches in BC? If they don't, then obviously there are way less Québécois retirees there than in Florida.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

St. Stephen, NB and Calais, ME

I think I recall reading from Neo-Brunswickers that those two actually aren't that similar...

If you ignore language, a good example of relatively similar cross-border twins would be Stanstead, in the Townships, and Derby Line, VT.

That border used to be totally open (pre-9/11) and you could walk around the village unimpeded (as you crossed, signs would ask you to go and report yourself to customs if you wanted to continue into the US and vice versa). The border cuts through a few buildings, as well. Remove those signs, and I'm not sure at all that an alien visitor exploring the village could have figured where the border was supposed to be back in those days. Especially since that alien would logically not expect it to be passing in the middle of buildings.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

I think I recall reading from Neo-Brunswickers that those two actually aren't that similar...

I think you might be thinking of some other towns as these two and many others along the NB-ME have a lot of linkages between them. They have a common summer festival I think and even shared fire department services with trucks crossing the border to answer calls (not sure if they still do).

Now all of this does not mean everywhere that joint festivals are held is the same. Detroit and Windsor share festivals but they are very different cities.

But in cases of small towns like these with comparable socio-economic and demographic profiles, there are many cross-border similarities.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

...and even shared fire department services with trucks crossing the border to answer calls (not sure if they still do).

A few years ago a heritage building burned down in Rouses Point NY while an asshole of a US customs officer was holding the fire truck from Quebec at the border.

(That would NEVER have happened pre-9/11, FWIW.)

I have the feeling that if they still do share those services, it's a lot more complicated nowadays than it used to be.

[ue]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

There are so many factors to consider. It's fascinating.

I think the main factor is just isolation. In the case of Quebec, it's linguistic isolation. And, since language is culture in many ways, that's enough.

For us, it's geographic and historical. We share a great deal in common with mainlanders, especially Canadian mainlanders given our shared Commonwealth background. And these similarities, of course, are most obvious in the Maritimes and New England, with whom we share a similar background.

The reason we're more different from Canadian anglophones than they are from each other, despite their geographically isolated regions (i.e. Northern/Southern Ontario, the territories, the West versus the Maritimes), is the historical isolation from mainland Canada. We have the same parents, sure, but we didn't grow up together the way mainland Canadian provinces did.

We were separate, especially when we were independent (1855-1933) or part of the United Kingdom (1933-1949).

And, on top of that, most of our interactions with mainlanders throughout all those years were with Americans, rather than Canadians. Whenever there's a story published here about Confederation, you often encounter a quote similar to this one:



http://www.thepacket.ca/News/Local/2014-04-01/article-3672439/65-years-of-Canada/1

So, that's really all that stands out to me as the common thread to all these differences; isolation.

If it's easier to mingle (Canadian/U.S. prairies, the Maritime provinces, the Great Lakes region), the people become more similar to one another.

The bottom line is that, unless two cultures are incompatible for whatever reason (take North and South Korea for example), there will be some cross-pollination of ideas and culture if the two cultures are in close proximity. Anglo Canada, Quebec, Newfoundland, and the US all make up a broad, general culture -- North American culture, and within that culture is a lot of intermingling, some along national lines, others along international lines.

I'm honestly not sure about Newfoundland, but I feel comfortable saying that every other English-speaking province (and bilingual one) in Canada have a shared general culture, just like all American states have a shared general culture, despite at times even more stark regional differences than those found here in Canada.

I do find the kinship Atlantic Canadians have with New England interesting. Don't get me wrong, it makes a lot of sense based on geographic proximity and certain shared cultural values, I suppose, but New England seems very (Colonial) American, while the Maritimes seem very (Commonwealth-y) Canadian. Perhaps they both share being a sort of 'birthplace' of their respective nations and that's what Boston talks about when he has Halifax over for dinner.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This is kind of an explosive thing to say on here and in other circles.

Personally, my views are a bit divided on the issue. In some ways Canadians regardless of language have more in common with each other than Americans, and in other ways Anglo-Canadians and Americans almost seem like one people, with French Canadians definitely on the sidelines. And strangely enough French Canadians also have some characteristics that Americans also have but that Anglo Canadians do not (exuberance, boisterousness, cocksuredness about cultural identity, etc.)

But sure, Gatineau and Ottawa do feel more different from each other than St. Stephen, NB and Calais, ME do, or even Brockville, ON and Watertown, NY.

I'm just giving my own observations. I don't know what's explosive about that.

I was actually making that statement while taking language out of the equation because I know that distorts things. Basically, I posed the question of, "if Quebec spoke English like in Alberta, but everything else was the same, would it still seem so different?" And the answer is still yes. Weird shit on TV5, older folks kissing when greeting each other, a more boisterous attitude, different street signs (beyond language), a different national holiday, and I know it's vague, but the overall vibe was just different. I wouldn't get that 90 minutes west of Montreal in Ontario.

That being said, there is still a lot of kinship between English and French Canada, for sure. We still adopt many of the same cultural symbols -- maple leafs, poutine, maple syrup, smoked sandwiches, etc. I just think that post-Quiet Revolution, the kinship has been fading with greater American influence in English Canada. I would prefer Quebec to stay in Canada, but I can understand the sentiment for separating.

There are many things in Montreal, at least, that point to it formerly being the Metropolis of all of Canada, and I think they help maintain the relationship in a small way. The Olympic Stadium is definitely a major Canadian architectural symbol, some major Canadian companies are headquartered there (Bell, CN, etc), its the home of the Canadian Centre for Architecture, and the Musee de Beaux-Arts, although not billed as such, is clearly Canada's finest art museum (sorry AGO and National Gallery).

Originally Posted by lio45

You might as well ask, how does Richmond BC have anything in common with China beyond general Pacific Rim culture? And how is the city at all Mandarinophone? It's in Canada!

Richmond is firmly Canadian/North American/Western, just with some more Asian culture than usual. In fact a lot of that Western culture is twisted a bit to appeal to the Asian immigrants. Eg. big mall filled with shops signs in Mandarin and English (or just Mandarin).

Fort Lauderdale and Quebec are in two different countries, with different climates, histories, cultural traits, etc.

[1overcosc]

Another thing to add to the confusion that is all this: there's divides within the French Canadian culture as well--eg. Franco-Ontarians are really different culturally from Quebecois.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

I do find the kinship Atlantic Canadians have with New England interesting. Don't get me wrong, it makes a lot of sense based on geographic proximity and certain shared cultural values, I suppose, but New England seems very (Colonial) American, while the Maritimes seem very (Commonwealth-y) Canadian. Perhaps they both share being a sort of 'birthplace' of their respective nations and that's what Boston talks about when he has Halifax over for dinner.

When you think about it, though, New England was and is the most British-y part of the U.S. That's why it's called New England. So it (sort of) has that in common.

Though obviously not identical there are definite similarities in feel and style between places like Portsmouth, NH and Portland, ME and Maritime cities like Saint John, NB.

Also clapboard houses are common around the region regardless of which side of the border you are on.

[SignalHillHiker]

UE: I suppose it depends on how much weight you give the factors places share in common.

From my perspective, for example, the Canadian and U.S. prairies are quite similar. Lots of Eastern European immigrants settling and developing the land for agriculture. I wouldn't expect Stanislav Kowalke, born and raised in Morden, Manitoba, to have more in common with Seamus O'Reilley from Cappahayden, Newfoundland, than he would with Luka Harowicz from Fargo, North Dakota. Commonwealth or not.

That said, there definitely is a generic North American culture. Some places layer more on top of that than others, from my perspective, but it's definitely there.

However, it come places in North America - for example, St-Pierre-et-Miquelon, or Francois, Newfoundland (isolated community, no cars, etc.) - it's only present to the extent it is worldwide through American cultural dominance. Still, there are very few places one could go in North America and forget that's where he is, and basically none if he spends enough time there.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

I'm just giving my own observations. I don't know what's explosive about that.

Not explosive to me at all. But to some people the idea that there are cross-border similarities and affinities than can be greater than those within Canada itself is anathema to them.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

A few years ago a heritage building burned down in Rouses Point NY while an asshole of a US customs officer was holding the fire truck from Quebec at the border.

(That would NEVER have happened pre-9/11, FWIW.)

I have the feeling that if they still do share those services, it's a lot more complicated nowadays than it used to be.

Further north along the ME-NB border it gets even more interesting as at one point basically everyone is of Québécois or Acadien descent with surnames like Cyr, Pelletier, Hebert, etc. Degrees of assimilation vary from family to family and person to person, and range from those who have completely lost their French to people who are still native French speakers and use the language in their everyday lives.

Some years ago my wife went to a supper club on the Maine side and there was a lounge singer there who sang struff like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett, mixed in with songs by Gerry Boulet and Michel Louvain! And many people in the crowd were singing along to the songs in French. And our car was basically the only car in the parking lot that didn't have Maine plates. So the patrons there weren't just border hoppers like us.

I don't believe that anything like this still exists (if it ever did) in northern VT or NH near the Quebec border.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by ue

New England seems very (Colonial) American, while the Maritimes seem very (Commonwealth-y) Canadian.

I will agree with the others who already kinda said so: New England is actually very UN-American compared to the true "heartland"; it feels considerably more British.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Further north along the ME-NB border it gets even more interesting as at one point basically everyone is of Québécois or Acadien descent with surnames like Cyr, Pelletier, Hebert, etc. Degrees of assimilation vary from family to family and person to person, and range from those who have completely lost their French to people who are still native French speakers and use the language in their everyday lives.

Some years ago my wife went to a supper club on the Maine side and there was a lounge singer there who sang struff like Frank Sinatra and Tony Bennett, mixed in with songs by Gerry Boulet and Michel Louvain! And many people in the crowd were singing along to the songs in French. And our car was basically the only car in the parking lot that didn't have Maine plates. So the patrons there weren't just border hoppers like us.

I don't believe that anything like this still exists (if it ever did) in northern VT or NH near the Quebec border.

It's kinda like that here as well.

Daniel Ouimette logging, Marquis trucking, Hebert construction, Laperle's IGA... (among others, I've dealt with M. Ouimette in French, he switched to French when he learned where I was from) ... are all in business today in Colebrook NH.

Tons of Québécois surnames in extreme northeastern VT and northern NH.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Not explosive to me at all. But to some people the idea that there are cross-border similarities and affinities than can be greater than those within Canada itself is anathema to them.

No place is identical to another in any direction, but most of the daily, lived similarities tend to be stronger north-south than east-west.

That's true even when it's different.

I find Bostonians much louder and much more the centre of attention than Newfoundlanders, but that's still less foreign to me than how reserved and self-censored Ontarians can sometimes be.

The symbols that evoke pride of place and culture in Boston are completely different than my own, excluding nautical symbols, but I still find that less foreign than the lack of an obvious, universal identity (as well as the need to immerse oneself in it) in some Canadian regions.

At the same time, there are things that are more familiar east-west - but they tend to be more abstract. The second-fiddle outlook on the world, the greater general knowledge of current events, the comfort with liberal-related terms that Americans tend to avoid, the desire to be liked exceeding the desire to be heard, etc.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

There are many things in Montreal, at least, that point to it formerly being the Metropolis of all of Canada, and I think they help maintain the relationship in a small way. The Olympic Stadium is definitely a major Canadian architectural symbol, some major Canadian companies are headquartered there (Bell, CN, etc), its the home of the Canadian Centre for Architecture, and the Musee de Beaux-Arts, although not billed as such, is clearly Canada's finest art museum (sorry AGO and National Gallery).
.

Yes, Montreal is the most interesting interface between the two main realities of Canada, although Ottawa-Gatineau fulfills this role too (albeit slightly differently). Moncton does so as well to some degree.

Some argue that places like Sudbury, Cornwall and Timmins do so as well, but I find the francophone element in those places, while certainly present, is more squeezed and even squashed by the majority culture and identity.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by ue

We still adopt many of the same cultural symbols -- maple leafs, poutine, maple syrup, smoked sandwiches, etc.

But those "cultural symbols" don't stop at the 45th...

VT is the second largest producer of maple syrup (second after Quebec).

Pretty sure both VT and NH produce a LOT more maple syrup yearly than any place in Western Canada...

The Sugar Maple is also the state tree of Vermont (makes sense; it's ubiquitous there) and as I recall saying once on this forum, if someone bought the Toronto Maple Leafs NHL franchise and wanted to move it to Burlington VT, they would actually not need to change the name of the team if they did so...

Originally Posted by ue

Richmond is firmly Canadian

Really? I have the feeling that the typical traditional Canadian WASP would beg to differ after spending a while in modern Richmond, no?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

It's kinda like that here as well.

Daniel Ouimette logging, Marquis trucking, Hebert construction, Laperle's IGA... (among others, I've dealt with M. Ouimette in French, he switched to French when he learned where I was from) ... are all in business today in Colebrook NH.

Tons of Québécois surnames in extreme northeastern VT and northern NH.

Yeah, I know. But I don't think that French has as public an angle to it there as it did where I was in Maine. I mean, the singer addressed the crowd bilingually.

French in northern VT and NH (and even northern NY) is present for sure, but it's something you keep to yourself at home for most families. It's not very present in the public realm. Unless I am mistaken and did not get a true impression the times I have been over there.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

No place is identical to another in any direction, but most of the daily, lived similarities tend to be stronger north-south than east-west.

That's true even when it's different.

I find Bostonians much louder and much more the centre of attention than Newfoundlanders, but that's still less foreign to me than how reserved and self-censored Ontarians can sometimes be.

The symbols that evoke pride of place and culture in Boston are completely different than my own, excluding nautical symbols, but I still find that less foreign than the lack of an obvious, universal identity (as well as the need to immerse oneself in it) in some Canadian regions.

At the same time, there are things that are more familiar east-west - but they tend to be more abstract. The second-fiddle outlook on the world, the greater general knowledge of current events, the comfort with liberal-related terms that Americans tend to avoid, the desire to be liked exceeding the desire to be heard, etc.

It's actually very logical that both St. John's and Boston would share typically Irish traits and characteristics.