Speech pattern and typographical variations across Canada

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yeah, I know. But I don't think that French has as public an angle to it there as it did where I was in Maine. I mean, the singer addressed the crowd bilingually.

It doesn't match what you've described in Maine, that's true.

[ue]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

UE: I suppose it depends on how much weight you give the factors places share in common.

From my perspective, for example, the Canadian and U.S. prairies are quite similar. Lots of Eastern European immigrants settling and developing the land for agriculture. I wouldn't expect Stanislav Kowalke, born and raised in Morden, Manitoba, to have more in common with Seamus O'Reilley from Cappahayden, Newfoundland, than he would with Luka Harowicz from Fargo, North Dakota. Commonwealth or not.

That said, there definitely is a generic North American culture. Some places layer more on top of that than others, from my perspective, but it's definitely there.

However, it come places in North America - for example, St-Pierre-et-Miquelon, or Francois, Newfoundland (isolated community, no cars, etc.) - it's only present to the extent it is worldwide through American cultural dominance. Still, there are very few places one could go in North America and forget that's where he is, and basically none if he spends enough time there.

Again, Newfoundland is a bit of an outlier, though, so of course Kowalke will have more in common with Harowicz. If it were McConnor from Lower Sackville, the difference would be less stark, though as we are comparing rural area to rural area, Kowalke would still likely have more in common with Harowicz. This is because rural areas, dependent heavily on agriculture, are very beholden to the geography and climate, the two things Manitoba and the Dakotas have most in common.

If you're ever in Calgary or Southern Alberta again and have time to kill, drive down to Montana. I can feel a difference right upon crossing the border. Sure, there's simple things like the highway signs look different, but the landscape looks more dried out and arid. Southern Alberta is semi-arid too, sure, but it also has a massive irrigation and watering system that makes the land much more lush and viable for farming that makes it look a lot less dried out overall. This is just the beginning of the different socioeconomic climate in Montana vs Alberta.

As you go deeper into Montana, you notice the towns themselves also look somewhat decrepit. As ugly as some small towns in the Prairies look, they aren't falling apart. But then, nowhere on the Prairies outside of Winnipeg has an architectural legacy quite like Butte. The architecture of the towns themselves also tend to lack the modernist staples of mainstreets across the Prairies and Canada. The residential areas are a bit more similar, though.

Throughout the state, and of course into nearby Idaho, Wyoming, and the Dakotas, you notice all sorts of little things that add up to a different vibe. Gigantic business signs alongside Interstates, the Interstate system, flag-toting patriotic Americana, bullet holes in highway signs, lack of guard rails going through highways in the mountains, cows in the middle of the road because of a lack of farm fencing, dead malls, a much bigger working class population, etc.

Maybe it's different in Manitoba and its American neighbours, but this is my experience with crossing the border in Alberta and Saskatchewan. The differences, while still there, are a lot more vague between Washington and BC.

[SignalHillHiker]

I don't know if we're really an outlier, though. In the Maritimes, I've lived in Halifax and Moncton, and visited just about everywhere. I find the Maritimes and New England to generally be much more similar than, say, them and the Canadian prairies.

And even within each region... Winnipeg and Calgary were completely different cities. My first trip to Calgary from there felt like I imagine it does to cross from Juarez into El Paso. The wealth difference, the optimism difference, was just overwhelming.

But, then there are exceptions the other way as well. Moncton is very unique in Atlantic Canada. It has a very different atmosphere from all the others. I found it most similar to Brandon, Manitoba. At least, of the places I've been, that one felt the most "Moncton" to me.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

When you think about it, though, New England was and is the most British-y part of the U.S. That's why it's called New England. So it (sort of) has that in common.

Though obviously not identical there are definite similarities in feel and style between places like Portsmouth, NH and Portland, ME and Maritime cities like Saint John, NB.

Also clapboard houses are common around the region regardless of which side of the border you are on.

Yeah, you got me there. But its history is American history and helped decide the fate of the territory to the south and west of it, not the north. I do agree, though, it does seem a bit less 'American' than New York or Washington or Baltimore.

Originally Posted by Acajack

Yes, Montreal is the most interesting interface between the two main realities of Canada, although Ottawa-Gatineau fulfills this role too (albeit slightly differently). Moncton does so as well to some degree.

Some argue that places like Sudbury, Cornwall and Timmins do so as well, but I find the francophone element in those places, while certainly present, is more squeezed and even squashed by the majority culture and identity.

With Ottawa-Gatineau, though, aside from Aylmer, most Anglophones stick to their side, though, making the the cross-pollination sort of one-way. Montreal has the uniqueness of still being a destination for Anglophones. You don't hear of people moving to Quebec City (though definitely visiting), but you do still hear of people moving to Montreal.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

Fort Lauderdale and Quebec are in two different countries, with different climates, histories, cultural traits, etc.

Of course. Fort Lauderdale is not a mini-Quebec by any stretch. It's an entirely American city. But you can easily find a little bit of Quebec there (and in neighbouring Hallandale, Hollywood Beach, Pompano Beach, etc., moreso than you can in most parts of "English Canada".

The corollary (right word?) of this is that many Québécois also avoid the area like plague because it's too overrun with people from back home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_bAZ0cuQDg

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

And even within each region... Winnipeg and Calgary were completely different cities. My first trip to Calgary from there felt like I imagine it does to cross from Juarez into El Paso. .

Hmmm. Not quite!

[ue]

Originally Posted by lio45

But those "cultural symbols" don't stop at the 45th...

VT is the second largest producer of maple syrup (second after Quebec).

Pretty sure both VT and NH produce a LOT more maple syrup yearly than any place in Western Canada...

The Sugar Maple is also the state tree of Vermont (makes sense; it's ubiquitous there) and as I recall saying once on this forum, if someone bought the Toronto Maple Leafs NHL franchise and wanted to move it to Burlington VT, they would actually not need to change the name of the team if they did so...

Yeah, but these things have only been adopted by Vermont and New Hampshire. They haven't been adopted by people in Texas and California. Quebec's legacy has spread far further within Canada than outside of it.

Really? I have the feeling that the typical traditional Canadian WASP would beg to differ after spending a while in modern Richmond, no?

Who says that a traditional Canadian WASP is the typical Canadian today? I certainly wouldn't. All countries have many different prongs, and the Richmonds of the world are one of those prongs.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

Yeah, you got me there. But its history is American history and helped decide the fate of the territory to the south and west of it, not the north. .

But New England did affect the areas to the north when you think about it.

One of the main reasons there are people who speak English in the Canadian Maritimes today was the presence of New England. Many anglo Maritimers are (going way back) descendents of New Englanders.

[ue]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

I don't know if we're really an outlier, though. In the Maritimes, I've lived in Halifax and Moncton, and visited just about everywhere. I find the Maritimes and New England to generally be much more similar than, say, them and the Canadian prairies.

And even within each region... Winnipeg and Calgary were completely different cities. My first trip to Calgary from there felt like I imagine it does to cross from Juarez into El Paso. The wealth difference, the optimism difference, was just overwhelming.

But, then there are exceptions the other way as well. Moncton is very unique in Atlantic Canada. It has a very different atmosphere from all the others. I found it most similar to Brandon, Manitoba. At least, of the places I've been, that one felt the most "Moncton" to me.

What?!?! So many of your posts are about the unique cultural heritage of your home province from the Canadian Mainland, including the Maritimes!

I give up. Maybe Newfoundland, the Maritimes, and New England should form some Atlantic sovereignty, Quebec should separate, and Canada will just be Ontario, the West, and the Territories. That is, until Cascadia forms a few years later, because that's a thing. Ontario could go with New York, because it likes comparing itself to the Empire State, on the condition it also joined up with Rust Belt states Michigan and Ohio, and the Prairies can get paired up with the Breadbasket, despite vastly different socioeconomic and political climates. The Territories could go with Sarah Palin's homeland because that makes sense.

I wonder who gets to keep the Stanley Cup and Poutine.

[ue]

Originally Posted by Acajack

But New England did affect the areas to the north when you think about it.

One of the main reasons there are people who speak English in the Canadian Maritimes today was the presence of New England. Many anglo Maritimers are (going way back) descendents of New Englanders.

I hate it when you're right.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

With Ottawa-Gatineau, though, aside from Aylmer, most Anglophones stick to their side, though, making the the cross-pollination sort of one-way. Montreal has the uniqueness of still being a destination for Anglophones. You don't hear of people moving to Quebec City (though definitely visiting), but you do still hear of people moving to Montreal.

It's true that the dynamic in O-G is different.

Montreal (at least since the 1980s) also forces anglos to adapt to the francophone reality of living in a mainly francophone city and province. Francophones in Montreal don't have as much of an onus to make this adaptation to the anglo reality - although many do, perhaps a reflection held over from the old days when the shoe was on the other foot.

In any event, there is more interplay in Montreal because the entire metro is within one province under a single shared administration (pretty much).


In O-G each group basically has its own safe zone they can retreat to if they wish to do so. There some interplay in the workplace (especially within the federal government) but beyond that it's entirely possible to live in Barrhaven or Kanata 98% identically as you would in Kitchener-Waterloo or Sherwood Park, and most of the Gatineau side allows you live as you would in Trois-Rivières or St-Hyacinthe if you want to as well.

I mean, you might hear the other language more often than you would in these places, but as long as you stick to your "zone" there is no real obligation to use it if you can't or don't want to.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ue

I hate it when you're right.

Just really enjoying our discussion, mon ami!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lio45

It doesn't match what you've described in Maine, that's true.

When that happened in Maine, my wife who is from Northern Ontario noted that no one in places like Sudbury, Timmins or North Bay would ever dare address the crowd in a club in English and French like that unless it was a francophone-specific place like Le Club Social Franco-Ontarien or something. But in a regular place like that - no way. It would be considered very provocative and would get a reaction from some of the patrons for sure.

She said it wouldn't be a problem in smaller (majority francophone) towns further north like Kapuskasing and Hearst, though.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Of course. Fort Lauderdale is not a mini-Quebec by any stretch. It's an entirely American city. But you can easily find a little bit of Quebec there (and in neighbouring Hallandale, Hollywood Beach, Pompano Beach, etc., moreso than you can in most parts of "English Canada".

The corollary (right word?) of this is that many Québécois also avoid the area like plague because it's too overrun with people from back home.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_bAZ0cuQDg

I'm among those who avoid it like the plague, FWIW...

BTW, and I think it's quite a telling fact, I personally know of at least two families of nearly entirely unilingual francophones who go on vacation yearly to that little Québécois corner of Florida; they're pretty much doomed to stick to that area for their time under the sun because they speak only French.

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by ue

What?!?! So many of your posts are about the unique cultural heritage of your home province from the Canadian Mainland, including the Maritimes!

Well, it is different. Newfoundland isn't like the Maritimes. The Maritimes isn't like the West.

That doesn't mean there aren't similarities. Newfoundland, the Maritimes, and New England are more alike than, say, Nunavut, Oklahoma, and Oregon.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by ue

Yeah, but these things have only been adopted by Vermont and New Hampshire.

"Adopted" is kind of a weird word here; those states have been covered in Sugar Maples long before the arrival of humans.

The presence of that resource shaped the culture, just like it did in the nearby St. Lawrence Valley, which back then was basically the entirety of Canada, so many of its symbols became (or rather, stayed) Canada's national ones even as it expanded west.

[ue]

Originally Posted by lio45

"Adopted" is kind of a weird word here; those states have been covered in Sugar Maples long before the arrival of humans.

The presence of that resource shaped the culture, just like it did in the nearby St. Lawrence Valley, which back then was basically the entirety of Canada, so many of its symbols became (or rather, stayed) Canada's national ones even as it expanded west.

Adopted as a cultural symbol, not adopted the sugar maple reserves. God, you can be so technical.

[lio45]

Originally Posted by ue

I wonder who gets to keep the Stanley Cup and Poutine.

You must be kidding.

Stanley Cup, if you have to find a permanent home for it, would certainly belong to the main winners of it, the Montréal Canadiens.

Poutine, no need to even ask the question.

[ue]

I am.

[ue]

Originally Posted by SignalHillHiker

Well, it is different. Newfoundland isn't like the Maritimes. The Maritimes isn't like the West.

That doesn't mean there aren't similarities. Newfoundland, the Maritimes, and New England are more alike than, say, Nunavut, Oklahoma, and Oregon.

So serious question -- would you prefer Newfoundland & Labrador to become wholly independent of any province, state or territory or would you rather the province go in on a joint deal with the Maritimes and/or New England?