Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by UPP

Over 70% of ticket holders are from Regina.

Regina is also the only municipality contributing to this project. It's Regina's team and Regina's stadium with support from the rest of the province. It isn't anywhere close to Green Bay's dependence on the rest of Wisconsin.

Ok lets go this route then. 70% of the supporters are from Regina in your arguement. So 33,000 should be dropped down by 30% then. So we are sitting at 23,000 seats then. Hmmm Hamilton anyone, or Ottawa maybe?

Budget wise $300 million cut by a roughly one third. $200 million along the lines of Winnipegs buget then.

Yep The Saskatchewan Roughriders are definitely Regina's.....

Amazing how the members from Saskatchewan understand this, but the uninformed members from elsewhere have no clue.

Good on you, believe what you want, but those of us that know the truth will continue on in our lives......

[elly63]

I'm wondering what, if any, affect the Regina announcement will have on Calgary, politically or business wise. Will there come a time when the effects of being the poor cousin will hit.

I think we are now discovering that you can have something quite amazing for under 300 million and well below the costs of a reno'ed BC Place or SkyDome in today's dollars.

Does anyone out there who knows the area think the climate is likely to change? Is the university amenable to this and the prospect of a new facility.

Is it an either/or situation regarding an arena having priority before the stadium or could there be both at the same time.

I know people have posted about a combo arena stadium/complex but frankly I don't think there has ever been any actual evidence that it is in the realm of possibility, beyond unsubstantiated rumour. Would love to be proven wrong on that account.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Dalreg

Ok lets go this route then. 70% of the supporters are from Regina in your arguement. So 33,000 should be dropped down by 30% then. So we are sitting at 23,000 seats then. Hmmm Hamilton anyone, or Ottawa maybe?

Budget wise $300 million cut by a roughly one third. $200 million along the lines of Winnipegs buget then.

Yep The Saskatchewan Roughriders are definitely Regina's.....

Amazing how the members from Saskatchewan understand this, but the uninformed members from elsewhere have no clue.

Good on you, believe what you want, but those of us that know the truth will continue on in our lives......

Every team gets support from outside of their cities. It's not as though Sask is some kind of exception in this regard.

Maybe the Riders get more support from outside city limits than most other teams, but I doubt they're an exception. It wouldn't surprise me if the big city teams (Argos, Als, Lions) had similar proportions of fans coming in from the exurbs... it is well known that the Argos and Lions in particular have non-urban fanbases.

The point being that this project would not happen without Regina and it is amazing that a city so small can pull off such a huge project... unlike the GB Packers, Regina does not have a city of 1,000,000+ a couple hours away propping them up. It's all on Regina. I guess they have to tell the fans in Kindersley or wherever that they're vital to the success of the operation, though.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by elly63

I'm wondering what, if any, affect the Regina announcement will have on Calgary, politically or business wise. Will there come a time when the effects of being the poor cousin will hit.

I think we are now discovering that you can have something quite amazing for under 300 million and well below the costs of a reno'ed BC Place or SkyDome in today's dollars.

Does anyone out there who knows the area think the climate is likely to change? Is the university amenable to this and the prospect of a new facility.

Is it an either/or situation regarding an arena having priority before the stadium or could there be both at the same time.

I know people have posted about a combo arena stadium/complex but frankly I don't think there has ever been any actual evidence that it is in the realm of possibility, beyond unsubstantiated rumour. Would love to be proven wrong on that account.

I'm not a Calgarian but I'm going to chime in with my two cents anyway.

Calgary doesn't have an inferiority complex, so there is a little less pressure to prove that it can step up to play. Obviously everyone knows that McMahon could be 100 years old and falling apart, and the Stampeders will still be there... they aren't going anywhere. That takes some of the political pressure off getting a new structure built.

There is also the fact that the Saddledome is now over 30 years old with a replacement being contemplated. A bit surprising if you ask me given that the Saddledome still seems to be in great shape, but I guess we like our flashy new venues. That will probably be dealt with first.

The good news is that once the Saddledome is replaced, a new stadium would be sure to follow. By that point, McMahon will be so out of date that it will be necessary for the team's ownership group to build something up to modern standards just to keep pace with client expectations and to remain an attractive place to play. (To use an example from another city, I doubt that IGF would have been built had the MTS Centre not been built first.)

Bottom line is that I'm sure there will be a new stadium in Calgary within a decade... the only question is will it be a modest, privately financed facility on par with THF or will the ownership group find a way to build something closer to (or better than) new Mosaic or IGF? The latter would probably be impossible without some form of public assistance such as government loans... but who knows whether the team's ownership can swing something like that?

[The Chemist]

All of these new stadiums / renovations (Vancouver, Saskatchewan, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Hamilton) are really starting to make Calgary's situation look even worse than it already was. I certainly hope Calgary's ownership is taking notes, because it'd be incredibly embarrassing if we got to 2017 and the new Mosaic opens and Calgary still had no plans to replace McMahon.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

All of these new stadiums / renovations (Vancouver, Saskatchewan, Winnipeg, Ottawa, Hamilton) are really starting to make Calgary's situation look even worse than it already was. I certainly hope Calgary's ownership is taking notes, because it'd be incredibly embarrassing if we got to 2017 and the new Mosaic opens and Calgary still had no plans to replace McMahon.

McMahon will probably remain as it is and relatively unchanged for many years to come as it is wholly owned by the University of Calgary whom I suspect really have no desire to vastly improve upon or replace McMahon. Any new stadium in Calgary will most likely near downtown and for the most part, wholly owned and operated by the Flames ownership group - the real issue will be how much public monies (if any) will go into such a project.

[DLLB]

Originally Posted by speedog

McMahon will probably remain as it is and relatively unchanged for many years to come as it is wholly owned by the University of Calgary whom I suspect really have no desire to vastly improve upon or replace McMahon. Any new stadium in Calgary will most likely near downtown and for the most part, wholly owned and operated by the Flames ownership group - the real issue will be how much public monies (if any) will go into such a project.

That is likely true and too bad. McMahon stadium is terrible and a disgrace to the city. Especially now with all the changes in other cities.

[speedog]

Originally Posted by DLLB

That is likely true and too bad. McMahon stadium is terrible and a disgrace to the city. Especially now with all the changes in other cities.

But compare apples to apples - how many of those other stadiums are owned by a university or are those other stadiums owned by the city or private interests?

• BC Place - owned by the BC Pavilion Corporation (PavCo) a crown corporation owned by the province of BC.
• Commonwealth Stadium - owned by the city of Edmonton.
• Mosaic Stadium - currently owned by the city of Regina.
• New Mosaic Stadium - appears that it will also be owned by the city of Regina.
• Investors Group Field - appears to be owned by the city of Winnipeg
• TD Place Stadium - owned by the city of Ottawa
• Tim Hortons Field - owned by the city of Hamilton
• Rogers Centre - owned by the Rogers Communications
• Percival Molson Memorial Stadium - owned by McGill University

So the two oldest stadiums (excluding the current Mosaic Stadium) are owned by universities - the other stadium in Montreal (big O) is owned by the province of Quebec. As such, it's probably quite easy to go out on a limb and state that there won't be any significant improvements or replacements being funded by the owners of McMahon and Percival - the owners of the CFL teams playing at those two stadiums are going to have to dig into their own pockets or convince taxpayers to fund new stadiums elsewhere in those two cities.

[elly63]

But the fact that McMahon is owned by the U of C and operated by the McMahon Stadium Society should make it easier to acquire government funds. The feds will provide funding for multisport games (ie PanAms) or university infrastructure. The original deal (before it fell through) for IGF (on University of Manitoba campus) included 40 million in federal government money.

Having said that, I just read that all four of the Canadian cities bidding for the 2022 Commonwealth Games dropped out because the federal government refused funding. So it looks like the game has changed. Edmonton renewed their interest a month later after learning the 2018 Games were being held using only state and civic money.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by tomthumb2

At first I thought, how the heck are they going to put a retractable roof on that thing and now I'm thinking it looks so nice without one (although all the renders are in nice sunshine). Would be a shame to see it sitting in snow for 5 months of the year though so maybe one day they will add something.
Having said that, I think its easily the most beautiful and unique stadium in Canada, if not North America. Love that its not cookie cutter design!!

Almost every football stadium in North America sits empty (in the snow or not in the snow) for 5-6 months of the year, as does almost every baseball stadium, so why should this stadium be different? There is not much demand for mega-domed facilities in most large cities, much less a city the size of Regina. A roof was just a waste of money. This looks great.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by isaidso

That's what I was thinking. It's a bigger swankier version of IGF. Now we just need Toronto and Calgary to get their stadium issues resolved and we'll have great football stadia across the CFL.

This stadium is great, but keep in mind that the Riders could never afford to build a stadium like this in a hundred years. This stadium is strictly a gift from the taxpayers of Regina and Saskatchewan to their community owned team. Toronto and Calgary are privately owned teams and I don't think the taxpayers of Alberta or Ontario are planning to build a football palace for two privately owned businesses. Privately owned businesses have to build what they can afford and what makes sense to the bottom line. Toronto, Calgary and Montreal will have to make do with what makes economic sense (unless they get a special sweetheart deal like Hamilton and Ottawa).

[osmo]

The Stampeders situation won't get addressed until the Flames situation is addressed. It's easy to see what tops the ownerships priority list as new revenues from a new Flames building can be out towards a new Stampeders building. There was talk of combining he two projects on one plot of land, that might work, the ownership group is going to have to be crafty. Unless e gets corporate welfare from the Province of City (unlikely) then it's going to be quite some time until the Stamps can get something new. Maybe you pump some money like Sask did into Mosaic which put heavy lipstick on that lug to buy you some time. You sink 15 million ink that thing to make it passable for Grey Cups, etc but that thing is such a dump I'm not sure how much 15 million would do to hell. They need a plan to buy time, nothing new is coming before a new Flames arena IMO.

[elly63]

The problem is governments fund art galleries, libraries, museums and theaters that may have less of an audience than a sports facility. People keep saying that a sports facility is used only ten times a year, which is ludicrous. There is use for the public (rentals) amateur sport, plus marquee events like concerts, trade shows etc.

The Canadian Museum for Human Rights (a debatable idea if there ever was one) had a construction budget of 351 million with apparently another 70 million on top of that.

It looks like we have found the sweet spot for a great 33k stadium Winn/Sask to be under 300 million. Why can we fund one and not the other, especially when one seems to be more culturally relevant (read that as popular).

Are expensive libraries with grand facades still relevant in this new world. And this is coming from a former librarian.

I don't mean to say we have to distinguish between sports and the arts but as people become more insular and carry on their social life through a hand held device we may have to start looking at what is necessary and how functional it should be.

[osmo]

Pro sports venues are private revenue generators and nothing more. We don't build skyscrapers and office buildings for law firms, we sometimes offer incentives and subsides to some private firms and sports isn't immune to that. There is to much evidence that the stadiums offer little to know economic value which is what they are sold upon. Nobody makes the mistake of thinking a library or a art gallery is some cash cow, it is what it is, a public institution, but sports venues are clearly not in this same camp. What of the requirements of public institutions is that access has to be widespread. The AGO and ROM in Toronto may have steep entrance fees but they offer enough opportunities for wavy discounts or free admission. Pro sports doesn't do that because it's a for profit and private enterprise. Regardless if your team is "community" owned it is still part of a collective for profit entity and league. The CFl isn't in he business of charity and access, it's in the business of profits. Period. So trying to justify corporate welfare for these facilities is a weak argument. The USA is full of cities now that have huge budget holes each year from having to derive debt from massive stadium builds. Closing schools and dismissing cops is the end result.

There is a balance between benefit that can't be measured in dollars. There is a cultural benefit to having pro sports teams and that can't be discounted but a community can't be expected to front the bill of a facility and not see any tangible financial benefits from it.

If Stadiums were such cash cows owners would have no qualms in forking over their own cash to build them...

[elly63]

Not all stadiums in Canada are the exclusive domain of a for profit professional club. Commonwealth, IGF, Mosaic, McMahon, Molson for starters all have community/university access. The public can rent BMO Field.

I would be all for denying funding if it were only for a professional enterprise.

[Welkin]

[QUOTE=elly63;6591931]Not all stadiums in Canada are the exclusive domain of a for profit professional club. Commonwealth, IGF, Mosaic, McMahon, Molson for starters all have community/university access. The public can rent BMO Field.

I would be all for denying funding if it were only for a professional enterprise.[/QUOTE]

That is some loop hole. However, if not for the Bombers, IGF would never have been built. U of M would be fine in something much smaller. New Mosaic is only being built because of the Riders. U of R could do just fine with a small facility on campus. These very nice, $300 million stadiums are built for the professional clubs and any community access or college use is probably less than 5% of the equation. If you can't be honest with yourself as to why these facilities were constructed, then you have other issues.

[Dalreg]

Originally Posted by esquire

Every team gets support from outside of their cities. It's not as though Sask is some kind of exception in this regard.

Maybe the Riders get more support from outside city limits than most other teams, but I doubt they're an exception. It wouldn't surprise me if the big city teams (Argos, Als, Lions) had similar proportions of fans coming in from the exurbs... it is well known that the Argos and Lions in particular have non-urban fanbases.

The point being that this project would not happen without Regina and it is amazing that a city so small can pull off such a huge project... unlike the GB Packers, Regina does not have a city of 1,000,000+ a couple hours away propping them up. It's all on Regina. I guess they have to tell the fans in Kindersley or wherever that they're vital to the success of the operation, though.

Yes the stadium would not have been built if Regina wasn't on board, but then if the other third of supporters that you choose to ignore aren't financially contributing through season tickets or share holders, merchandise, etc, this stadium would not be built.

The province is loaning a HUGE chunk of money towards this stadium. With out that there would be no stadium. Without the 10 to 15 thousand that show up for every game from outside the city of Regina this stadium wouldn't be built.

Good for Regina, but get it through your skull this stadium would not be built without the PROVINCE of Saskatchewan.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Nathan

No, not exactly. See my post above...

I did.

[Nathan]

Originally Posted by isaidso

I did.

Well, good thing I have you and other outsiders to tell me how the Riders work in the provincial cultural fabric here.

[osmo]

Originally Posted by elly63

Not all stadiums in Canada are the exclusive domain of a for profit professional club. Commonwealth, IGF, Mosaic, McMahon, Molson for starters all have community/university access. The public can rent BMO Field.

I would be all for denying funding if it were only for a professional enterprise.

Community ball teams have practice at the Air Canada Centre after Raptor games...

Access for a rental for or donating a few community days a year isn't different then what a Art Gallery does. What is a public institution, non-profit, in which access isn't denied to anybody, versus a venue in which access is exclusive to ticket holders and for profit.

I have no issues with stadium construction but I do have issues with the false premise in which it is sold to the public. Seattle for instance had it's team taken away when it sniffed a bad deal for the Sonics owner pandering to the county for a new arena. A billionaire was pandering when the regular arena (though dated, yes) was fine and willing to be upgraded extensively. That's not right and exposes the Stadium game for what it really is more times then not.. Corporate welfare.

At least here in Canada since we have learned our lessons from America it hasn't been as bad. I'm not sold on Regina's books going forward for the Stadium debt, but it would of been twice as worse if we went with the dome as initially planned, this was the best way possible to get the thing built given the realities of it all.