PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II - Page 382

eschaton · #**7621** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 5:00 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I think the "new ghettos" of the future are destined to be mostly way farther out in the suburbs/exurbs.

I agree. But the West End is mostly suburban in terms of built structure anyway. Even the neighborhoods which are older, like Sheridan and Elliott, basically lost the integrity of their commercial areas entirely, so they function as suburbs today. Thus it seems to me the West End will develop into the roughest portion of the city as a whole.

If I was going to pick a fast-declining area to turn around, as I said, I'd pick Knoxville/Mount Oliver along the Brownsville corridor. The physical infrastructure of the business district there is great, and the housing stock (where it's intact) is also pretty nice.

photoLith · #**7622** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 5:11 PM**

I would absolutely love to see bethel park, cranberry township, Wexford etc become ghettos and have the inner city be a thriving place like it was before WW2.

BrianTH · #**7623** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 5:27 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschaton

I agree. But the West End is mostly suburban in terms of built structure anyway.

The reason for my prediction wasn't really tied closely to the current built form. One big driver is going to be energy and transportation costs, and changing norms about commuting. Another is that as a lot of suburbs/exurbs age, they are going to run into the same sorts of depreciation/disinvestment/legacy cost problems as central areas have gone through.

In other words--location, location, location. Things like crime rates, depreciated housing stock, poor municipal services, lack of local retail--all that is fixable, and in fact can be fixed very quickly, at least if there is money to be made. But you can't fix being miles and miles of highway away from the main jobs and amenity clusters.

But everywhere in the arc from Carnegie to McKees Rocks is around as close or closer to Downtown as Squirrel Hill. At some point, that is going to end up being determinative, although precisely when is admittedly anyone's guess.

Austinlee · #**7624** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 5:37 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by designer3d712

Fixed it for you. Also, I would rather go shopping at the Parkway Center Mall site, than drive out to Robinson.

You'd rather go shopping in a sinkhole zone at a mall that closed down in 2013? Interesting....

Austinlee · #**7625** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 5:39 PM**

Parkway Center Mall/New Yinzer swimmin' hole/Ravenstahl legacy "Pothole of the year" award

designer3d712 · #**7626** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 5:52 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Austinlee

You'd rather go shopping in a sinkhole zone at a mall that closed down in 2013? Interesting....

You think there is no way to fix that? Interesting....

Austinlee · #**7627** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 6:50 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by designer3d712

You think there is no way to fix that? Interesting....

How do you shop in a mall that's been closed?

Austinlee · #**7628** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 7:04 PM**

So according to census ESTIMATES, Allegheny County REVERSED its 30+ year decline in population around 2009 or 2010, a historic marker for sure.

2010 estimate: 1,223,348
2013 estimate: 1,229,338

I just wanted to use that modest, tiny growth to highlight that MY home area of Beaver County to the west and one of the 5 key metro counties also, several years later is posting a modest increase (also for the first time in 30+ years). BC is the second most urban county in the metro, FYI. We have a diverse population, many historic towns, middle class subdivisions and mansions springing up here and there as well. Also one of Pennsylvania's best run public transit bus systems.

previous estimate: 170,245
current estimate: 170,539

(Down from a peak of a little over 210,000 people)

Butler, Westmoreland, Washington are all growing. So now with Allegheny and Beaver on board with population growth, the 5 county region is ALL growing again!

designer3d712 · #**7629** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 7:13 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Austinlee

How do you shop in a mall that's been closed?

I guess you didn't read the article about possibly redeveloping the Parkway Center Mall Site.

The link is below if you didn't see it. If they redeveloped the site, I'd rather drive up the hill from Crafton than to drive out to Robinson. That's all I was trying to say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikebarbaro

Here is good news for the Parkway Center Mall site: http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2014/03/06/new-plans-in-store-for-parkway-center-mall-site/

Private Dick · #**7630** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 7:22 PM**

A Mandarin Oriental in the Union Trust would be fitting and incredible... but a bit unrealistic for Pittsburgh, I think. Having a Fairmont in Pittsburgh is quite a coup in itself!

I think W is a brand that is much more fitting for Pittsburgh's demographics and emerging industries/cultural scene.

AaronPGH · #**7631** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 7:38 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private Dick

A Mandarin Oriental in the Union Trust would be fitting and incredible... but a bit unrealistic for Pittsburgh, I think. Having a Fairmont in Pittsburgh is quite a coup in itself!

I think W is a brand that is much more fitting for Pittsburgh's demographics and emerging industries/cultural scene.

There have also been heavy pushes in the past for bringing the W (and their aLoft concept) both to Pittsburgh. The W was going to slot into Oakland near CMU, I believe. aLoft was supposed to go into the SouthSide Works.

Private Dick · #**7632** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 7:40 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianTH

At some point the West End is going to start taking off, and then I think a reasonably high-value use will emerge. So personally, I wouldn't have a problem letting it lie fallow for a while.

Very perceptive. I took a ride-along with the mayor and some others through West End just the other day. I think we're going to see good stuff happening in the area sooner rather than later.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I think the "new ghettos" of the future are destined to be mostly way farther out in the suburbs/exurbs.

Currently seeing this in the DC area in MD and VA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by photoLith

I would absolutely love to see bethel park, cranberry township, Wexford etc become ghettos and have the inner city be a thriving place like it was before WW2.

Other than the wealthy communities of the East End (the "suburbs" of the time), much of inner city Pittsburgh was a pretty terrible place to be in the years before WW2.

themaguffin · #**7633** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 7:56 PM**

Quote:

So according to census ESTIMATES, Allegheny County REVERSED its 30+ year decline in population around 2009 or 2010, a historic marker for sure.

2010 estimate: 1,223,348
2013 estimate: 1,229,338

I just wanted to use that modest, tiny growth to highlight that MY home area of Beaver County to the west and one of the 5 key metro counties also, several years later is posting a modest increase (also for the first time in 30+ years). BC is the second most urban county in the metro, FYI. We have a diverse population, many historic towns, middle class subdivisions and mansions springing up here and there as well. Also one of Pennsylvania's best run public transit bus systems.

previous estimate: 170,245
current estimate: 170,539

(Down from a peak of a little over 210,000 people)

Austin, where are you seeing 2013 data??

Evergrey · #**7634** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 8:13 PM**

Austin: That Allegheny County estimate is for 2012... and the Beaver County numbers are reversed... it is still declining (slowly) as of the most recent estimate (2012).

BrianTH · #**7635** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 10:33 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private Dick

A Mandarin Oriental in the Union Trust would be fitting and incredible... but a bit unrealistic for Pittsburgh, I think. Having a Fairmont in Pittsburgh is quite a coup in itself!

Probably, but one can dream.

How about a JW Marriott? They are all over the place these days, including cities like Grand Rapids and Indianapolis.

themaguffin · #**7636** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 10:46 PM**

When the Fairmont was under construction, I looked at their site. basically the hotels under construction were Pittsburgh and Asia. I'm sure I missed another north American city in there somewhere, but that's pretty damn impressive.

doo dah · #**7637** Posted **Mar 7, 2014, 11:31 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschaton

I agree. But the West End is mostly suburban in terms of built structure anyway. Even the neighborhoods which are older, like Sheridan and Elliott, basically lost the integrity of their commercial areas entirely, so they function as suburbs today. Thus it seems to me the West End will develop into the roughest portion of the city as a whole.

If I was going to pick a fast-declining area to turn around, as I said, I'd pick Knoxville/Mount Oliver along the Brownsville corridor. The physical infrastructure of the business district there is great, and the housing stock (where it's intact) is also pretty nice.

This conversation moved too fast for me today, but I can't remember if it was here or that other forum where I said that development (or was it gentrification?) follows where the 54 touches? So - Knoxville/Mount Oliver it is!

Private Dick · #**7638** Posted **Mar 8, 2014, 1:13 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Probably, but one can dream.

How about a JW Marriott? They are all over the place these days, including cities like Grand Rapids and Indianapolis.

Yeah, I think a JW Marriott would work very well

Private Dick · #**7639** Posted **Mar 8, 2014, 1:16 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by themaguffin

When the Fairmont was under construction, I looked at their site. basically the hotels under construction were Pittsburgh and Asia. I'm sure I missed another north American city in there somewhere, but that's pretty damn impressive.

Right, Fairmont is a pretty high-end brand, with Pittsburgh being by far the smallest city location in the US... and certainly the most non-international tourism destination of the locations. That's why it was a pretty big deal for Pittsburgh to land it. Mandarin is even more exclusive though... I don't think Chicago even has a Mandarin.

AaronPGH · #**7640** Posted **Mar 8, 2014, 1:26 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Private Dick

I don't think Chicago even has a Mandarin.

I don't think Chicago has an Ace Hotel either.

I would imagine that some of these chains are taking note of both the Fairmont and Ace arriving, right?