Mountain West Microbrew: Chit chat and irrelevancy

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I don't think that lobbies should be counted when comparing convention centers. That list of largest convention centers only lists SLC's exhibit space, not its lobbies, so it appears much smaller than other convention centers.

It's a Wikipedia list, it pretty much borders on useless. Denver's convention center is probably in the 20's in terms of exhibition space rankings. Though things like lobbies, registration areas, gathering places, etc do come into play for conventions. A lot of business gets done outside of the exhibition areas.

[PLANSIT]

Your Transit Hub



Our Transit Hub

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

A lot of business gets done outside of the exhibition areas.

+1.. When Comic Con rolls around, you can still go, wander the open spaces, etc and still have a GREAT time without spending a single penny. There is always a ton of stuff going on in the lobbies and pre-function spaces. I think it should totally count.

[wong21fr]

Originally Posted by Stenar

I don't think that lobbies should be counted when comparing convention centers. That list of largest convention centers only lists SLC's exhibit space, not its lobbies, so it appears much smaller than other convention centers.

If you can't exhibit 4x as much as SLC, why list the overall area of the cc? Meeting planners aren't going to necessarily be impressed by large lobbies, but rather by how much exhibition space you have.

Also, not included in SLC's area is Abravanel Hall, which is connected, seating 2,811. Some conventions have even used the 21,000 seat LDS Conference Center auditorium across the street.

These statistics are useless. We need to add up all of the meeting places that can be used ANYWHERE in the state. That's the only true measure of penis size using the arbitrary figure of meeting space as an indicator.

[Stenar]

SLC currently has approximately 4,000 housing units U/C or completed within 1.5 miles of downtown.

About 8,000 hotel rooms and a new convention center hotel of 1000+ rooms to be announced pretty much any day.

If you rank convention centers by actual exhibit space, Denver is #19 in size and SLC is #20.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

These statistics are useless. We need to add up all of the meeting places that can be used ANYWHERE in the state. That's the only true measure of penis size using the arbitrary figure of meeting space as an indicator.

No, the meeting space has to be within a block of the convention. People aren't going to venues all over the state when they're at the Denver or SLC CC.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by wong21fr

It's a Wikipedia list, it pretty much borders on useless. Denver's convention center is probably in the 20's in terms of exhibition space rankings. Though things like lobbies, registration areas, gathering places, etc do come into play for conventions. A lot of business gets done outside of the exhibition areas.

We also have lobbies, etc., they're just not counted anywhere that I can find.

[Stenar]

This photo of SLC is just of the Greyhound building, not the entire hub and not all of the buildings in your photo are part of the hub itself.

I wouldn't really compare SLC and Denver transit, if I were you.

SLC
48 miles of light rail and streetcar track
88 miles of commuter rail track
131 bus lines

Denver
47 miles of light rail track
127 bus lines

Originally Posted by PLANSIT

Your Transit Hub



Our Transit Hub

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by Stenar

not all of the buildings in your photo are part of the hub itself.

You're right. The hub goes in-between all those buildings with the bus facility underground. The new buildings are just part of the redevelopment plan...

Video Link

[Stenar]

There are plans to redevelop the land around our transit hub, but they aren't as far along as Denver's, yet. That does look pretty good. I wish we had used one of our old train stations for our hub.

One of our old stations is about to become a year-round market and the other is meeting space and shops at the Gateway Mall.

Originally Posted by RyanD

You're right. The hub goes in-between all those buildings with the bus facility underground. The new buildings are just part of the redevelopment plan...

Video Link

[PLANSIT]

Originally Posted by Stenar

This photo of SLC is just of the Greyhound building, not the entire hub and not all of the buildings in your photo are part of the hub itself.

I wouldn't really compare SLC and Denver transit, if I were you.

SLC
48 miles of light rail and streetcar track
88 miles of commuter rail track
131 bus lines

Denver
47 miles of light rail track
127 bus lines

C'mon Man! You're making this too easy!

Bus Routes???

Alright, let's compare systems.

APTA (Quarter 3, 2013) can help:

Daily Weekday Ridership (000's)

Denver
DR: 4.2
LR: 66.1
M: 205.8
Total: 276.1

SLC
DR: 3.1
CR: 13.0
LR: 59.7
MB: 76.8
VP: 5.6
TOTAL: 158.1

So, to summarize - Denver and SLC have similar sized LRT systems (currently) with similar ridership (Denver a bit ahead). Your 88 mile CRT system carries a whopping 13,000 riders per day. Now, the biggest difference in systems is Bus. The SLC system carries 76,800 riders per day while Denver carries 205,800 riders per day. No matter how you want to cook the numbers, that is a huge difference.

And if we're still keeping count, Denver has 74.6% more riders per day than SLC.

Keep trying though, you're doing a great job.

[ToysNoiz]

Originally Posted by bunt_q

And let's not ignore the elephant in the room. The biggest difference between Salt Lake and Denver is having to live under the umbrella of the Mormon church. Not everybody wants that. Salt Lake will never be recognized as a top tier city so long as the state of Utah is thought of as a borderline theocracy.

Not saying I personally feel that way, or would even care, I'm more conservative than most on here. But there is that perception out there, and it is not entirely inaccurate.

If SLC wasn't the HQ of the LDS church, it's major-ism would be perceived very differently....

It's really unfortunate.

DISCLAIMER: I have no issue with the LDS church. I have a problem with the way people see SLC because of the church.

[CONative]

Those bus lines in Denver also cover a lot more than SLC bus lines. Denver is one of the most comprehensive bus transit cities in terms of covering a metro area. Let's also not forget that Denver will soon pass SLC metro in total rail miles (LR and Commuter) -- even with SLC's new rail miles coming up. I'm not so sure you can honestly include all those SLC metro commuter miles when it's part of other metro areas (Provo, Ogden). If included, then Denver should start including Boulder, Longmont, Greeley, maybe even Colorado Springs as part of its metro area. SLC folks always wants to include Provo and Ogden as part of its metro, but Denver shouldn't include Boulder, Longmont, Greeley? Double standard. The rail line in the Wasatch is like the rail line from Santa Fe to Albq. Those two cities are not part of the same metro area.

The mountains in the Denver picture are not photoshopped to make them look closer. I've been to that exact spot many times. Just like in SLC (I travel there monthly), you have certain parts of the city in which the mountains look smaller or further away from certain angles. If you're at the bottom of a hill looking toward the mountains, they look smaller. Comparatively, I've been in SLC where you can't even really see the mountains that well because of the angle I'm at the bottom of a hill. SLC mountains are definitely closer, more beautiful when seen from most parts of the SLC metro, and more dramatic because the mountains begin a lot sooner. However, the distance to get to the higher country of foothills is about the same for both cities (depending on where you live in each metro area). Denver simply has miles of gradually rising levels and ridges of foothills (beautifully seen during a lot of sunsets) before you reach the 14,000 foot high mountains that can still be seen from Denver; which happen to be taller than the Wasatch mountains. :-)

...and SLC folks have been brainwashed with constant Utah tourism marketing that Denver is 2 hours and hundreds of miles from their nearest ski resorts. I have gone to Eldora Mountain in 45-50 minutes from Denver proper. There are 1-2 more that are within 1 hour. Many more within 90 minutes. You also have the Amtrak ski train that takes you from Denver to Winter Park that people fail to remember.

[Stenar]

Does Denver have commuter rail connecting all of those other metros with itself at the center? No, that's why it's counted.

Salt Lake isn't the same distance as Denver from the high country. If you go 2.5 hours from SLC, you're in another state.

The average distance for Denver area ski resorts is 180 miles. 32 miles average for SLC.

Originally Posted by CONative

Those bus lines in Denver also cover a lot more than SLC bus lines. Denver is one of the most comprehensive bus transit cities in terms of covering a metro area. Let's also not forget that Denver will soon pass SLC metro in total rail miles (LR and Commuter) -- even with SLC's new rail miles coming up. I'm not so sure you can honestly include all those SLC metro commuter miles when it's part of other metro areas (Provo, Ogden). If included, then Denver should start including Boulder, Longmont, Greeley, maybe even Colorado Springs as part of its metro area. SLC folks always wants to include Provo and Ogden as part of its metro, but Denver shouldn't include Boulder, Longmont, Greeley? Double standard. The rail line in the Wasatch is like the rail line from Santa Fe to Albq. Those two cities are not part of the same metro area.

The mountains in the Denver picture are not photoshopped. Just like in SLC (I travel there monthly), you have certain parts of the city in which the mountains look smaller or further away from certain angles. If you're at the bottom of a hill looking toward the mountains, they look smaller. Comparatively, I've been in SLC where you can't even really see the mountains that well because of the angle I'm at the bottom of a hill. SLC mountains are definitely closer and more dramatic because the mountains begin a lot sooner, but the distance to the higher country of foothills and such is about the same for both cities (depending on where you live in the metro). Denver simply has some miles of foothills before you reach the mountains that happen to be taller than Wasatch mountains.

...and SLC folks have been brainwashed with constant Utah tourism marketing that Denver is 2 hours and hundreds of miles from their nearest ski resorts. I have gone to Eldora Mountain in 45-50 minutes from Denver proper. There are 1-2 more that are within 1 hour. Many more within 90 minutes. You also have the Amtrak ski train that takes you from Denver to Winter Park that people fail to remember.

[SLC Projects]

I'm learning a lot about both cities.

[CONative]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Does Denver have commuter rail connecting all of those other metros with itself at the center? No, that's why it's counted.

Salt Lake isn't the same distance as Denver from the high country. If you go 2.5 hours from SLC, you're in another state.

The average distance for Denver area ski resorts is 180 miles. 32 miles average for SLC.

You can arbitrarily count whatever YOU want. Doesn't mean it's part of the metro rail transit. If Denver follows through with a rail line from Fort Collins to Pueblo (and beyond) because it's all connected through our main transit hub in downtown Denver, can we include all of those commuter rail miles as part of our metro? Not realistically. I know at least 10 people that literally drive to Denver from Fort Collins for work and would likely use a train as such, but no one is going to include those miles as part of Denver metro transit miles. Give me a break.

You are comparing oranges with apples, and you are still brainwashed with the 2.5 hours mentality. Assuming you're correct with your numbers, you are gathering everything up and averaging it in a large area. Colorado has more ski resorts than Utah does. Colorado is larger than Utah; with more mountains and mountainous areas. Therefore, ski resorts that are in the southwestern part of the state (i.e. Telluride) are far away. That doesn't mean anyone is kidding themselves by saying Telluride is close to Denver in terms of commuting for skiing. It's been said on here by a few folks that there are resorts closer than you keep stating.

High country refers to when the foothills begin from the metro; for things like hiking, camping, or other outdoor activities. I didn't say "ski area". Not everything is about skiing.

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by Stenar

Denver is 2.5 hours to the nearest ski resort, while SLC is 25 minutes.

What are you talking about? A-Basin is about an hour and fifteen minutes from downtown, maybe less. Eldora is about an hour and ten minutes from Denver. I went skiing today!

[Scottk]

Originally Posted by Stenar

The nearest one is over an hour. 90 minutes from the airport.

I have actually done my research. On a previous thread, we were discussing infrastructure for Denver and SLC to host Olympics. I made a chart of every single ski resort in the Denver area and SLC area, with distance of each from Denver or SLC respectively and from that figured the average distance. Here's info I came up with after that research. Some of these are out of date because SLC has built several hotels since then.

What is with this graph?

You can't include Aspen and Steamboat as a comparison. Both mountains are like 5 hours from Denver. Wtf?

Winter Park
Breck
A-Basin
Copper
Keystone

would be a way more fair comparison. Steamboat and Aspen are ridiculously far away.

Also the vertical rise at Breck is 3398 feet your chart has bad information

Edit to add: this image also has the wrong vertical for steamboat. Steamboat has a vertical rise of 3700 feet. This is a totally misleading comparison image that you have created

[CONative]

Originally Posted by Scottk

What are you talking about? A-Basin is about an hour and fifteen minutes from downtown, maybe less. Eldora is about an hour and ten minutes from Denver. I went skiing today!

It's that Utah brainwashing that I was referring to. Eldora Mountain resort is actually only 30-35 minutes from the northwest suburbs of Denver metro. Obviously not all 2.9 million people live in the city proper. Winter Park is 1.3 hours from Denver (1 hour from western suburbs). Loveland is 1 hour from Denver (45 minutes from western suburbs). SLC doesn't have eastern suburbs, so they can't seem to fathom that there are 600,000 people that live west of Denver proper in the metro.

Just because Colorado has many more resorts throughout the state than Utah does -- doesn't mean they have to be near Denver either. Some folks actually like to get away and see the stars without the light pollution of SLC metro. :-)

..but anyway, it's not all about the ski resorts. SLC hangs on their ski booster that with all their might.

[bunt_q]

Originally Posted by Stenar

The average distance for Denver area ski resorts is 180 miles. 32 miles average for SLC.

Well, if we're just picking random ski resorts for our averages, you can't leave out El Colorado Ski Center. In which case, the average distance for Denver ski resorts is closer to 2,000 miles.