PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[eschaton]

There are only a few places I think a pedestrian mall would work well in Pittsburgh. Walnut Street (between S Aiken and Ivy) is one of them - it's narrow, street parking is only allowed on one side, and much (most?) of the foot traffic is from people within walking distance. Even here I'd expect to allow the cross streets of Copeland and Bellafonte through.

The problem The Strip faces isn't so much the cars, as it is a badly put-together parking structure. Since the lots cater to suburban "tourists" making a day of it, they charge all-day rates. Hence it's not a very worthwhile place to go if you live nearby and just need to stop into one or two places for 30 minutes for essentials (unless you live close enough to walk/bike).

[BrianTH]

The mayor has said that he has spoken to developers from Texas, Ohio and Pennsylvania who are interested in reusing the terminal without demolishing any part of it. He said there was a "spirit of cooperation" in today's meeting on both sides.

"I really do believe at the end of the day that we have the ability to see the adaptive reuse of the terminal building, access to the site for Buncher and the potential redevelopment of their entire site and also Smallman Street itself to bring in much more development than had been proposed earlier," he said.

Well, that sounds promising. As people know, I would love to see Smallman integrated into something cool along with the Produce Terminal, and "much more development than had been proposed" also sounds very encouraging.

[DKNewYork]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Well, that sounds promising. As people know, I would love to see Smallman integrated into something cool along with the Produce Terminal, and "much more development than had been proposed" also sounds very encouraging.

It does sound promising. It seems too obvious to mention, but any revamp of the Produce Terminal needs to include a revamp of the stretch of Smallman in front of the Produce Terminal. If the Terminal is the "front door" to the Buncher development, then Smallman is the "front door" to the Produce Terminal. That stretch of Smallman can be a grand public amenity. I also picked up on the "much more development" comment, which indicates that the mayor sees the big picture. It is worth noting again that PHLF commissioned and provided to Buncher a master plan which provided access to the riverfront property without any demolition. Fingers crossed.

[doo dah]

Originally Posted by eschaton

There are only a few places I think a pedestrian mall would work well in Pittsburgh. Walnut Street (between S Aiken and Ivy) is one of them - it's narrow, street parking is only allowed on one side, and much (most?) of the foot traffic is from people within walking distance. Even here I'd expect to allow the cross streets of Copeland and Bellafonte through.

The problem The Strip faces isn't so much the cars, as it is a badly put-together parking structure. Since the lots cater to suburban "tourists" making a day of it, they charge all-day rates. Hence it's not a very worthwhile place to go if you live nearby and just need to stop into one or two places for 30 minutes for essentials (unless you live close enough to walk/bike).

I do our grocery shopping in the Strip (for 2 people), and take the bus (54). Guess it would be harder for family shopping, but I find the tourists aren't grocery shopping anyways.

[Topher51]

Originally Posted by Found5dollar

Full rendering set and basic site plans for the East Liberty Whole Foods expansion.

http://www.eastliberty.org/sites/default/files/article/files/WFMPittsburgh.pdf

Its even worse than i thought. Utterly auto centric and removes all hope of a coherent street wall any time soon.

Uttler auto centric? It looks to me like the plaza area with the bike racks is all new. So what if there is a vertical expansion of the parking? It doesn't look to me like that will make the store less accesible to bikers and pedestrians than before.

Ideally speaking, what would you prefer to see? What is a "street wall," btw?A facade to make the parking structure look like more of a building?

I don't have any problem with this, based on these renders. Maybe I am easier to please though.

[BrianTH]

The Whole Foods plan is definitely no worse than what is there already, and in fact it is undoubtedly at least a slight improvement. It is also no worse than what already exists in the East Side development in the section just east of Beatty.

But you don't have to look far to see something better. In the next section of East Side continuing down to Highland, the street is mostly fronted with shops, and the parking is relegated to the back along the tracks. And in the upcoming phase of East Side associated with the East Liberty Transit Center, the two levels of planned parking will not only be on the tracks side, but they will actually be tucked under the level where the apartments and retail will be.

So I don't think it is unreasonable to have hoped this section would end up looking more like that. In fact thinking longer term, that surface lot across the street (next to the AAA building) has to be considered one of the prime long term development opportunities, and it is too bad it will be across from an obvious parking structure rather than something at least a little nicer.

[Found5dollar]

Originally Posted by Topher51

Uttler auto centric? It looks to me like the plaza area with the bike racks is all new. So what if there is a vertical expansion of the parking? It doesn't look to me like that will make the store less accesible to bikers and pedestrians than before.

Ideally speaking, what would you prefer to see? What is a "street wall," btw?A facade to make the parking structure look like more of a building?

I don't have any problem with this, based on these renders. Maybe I am easier to please though.

Streetwall:
http://streetswiki.wikispaces.com/Street+Wall

basically a streetwall is what makes walking down Walnut street pleasant, and the lack of a streetwall is what makes walking along most of the east side development a chore. By hiding the parking behind a human scaled building designed to interact with the side walk, you could sew together the neighborhood and the whole area would become much more vibrant. by just adding parking you are inviting people to drive to Wholefoods and then leave right away. A bike rack and a plaza do not make an area better or more accessible for pedestrians. The best way to do that is to put more "places" (aka, shops, restaurants, entertainment venues, civic spaces, etc.) in the same area and reduce the number of curb cuts a pedestrian has to walk past to get from A to B, which this development does not do.

I see nothing wrong with adding more parking here, I am just very disappointed that instead of using the construction of a parking deck to as an opportunity to create a more coherent streetwall and pedestrian experience, they are constructing a big gap tooth in the urban fabric that will be there until the Wholefoods goes out of business. New parking is fine, just don't let it get in the way of connecting urban spaces and comunities.

[Evergrey]

Nothing I love more than a good streetwall. Dramatically changes the quality of the pedestrian experience. I would never feel like walking along Centre in front of Whole Foods... it's an awful environment.

Amazing how few Walnut Streets are out there... guess people could never quite put a finger on why they loved walking in such districts so much... it's the streetwall!

[BrianTH]

The new garage between the Highland and Wallace buildings actually did a pretty good job preserving the "street wall" effect:



However, even the better parts of the East Side development are not so good by those standards:



Heck, the AAA building violates them too:



So Centre was not going to live up to those ideals, but it could still be at least somewhat better than what Whole Foods is planning.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Found5dollar

Streetwall:
http://streetswiki.wikispaces.com/Street+Wall

basically a streetwall is what makes walking down Walnut street pleasant, and the lack of a streetwall is what makes walking along most of the east side development a chore. By hiding the parking behind a human scaled building designed to interact with the side walk, you could sew together the neighborhood and the whole area would become much more vibrant. by just adding parking you are inviting people to drive to Wholefoods and then leave right away. A bike rack and a plaza do not make an area better or more accessible for pedestrians. The best way to do that is to put more "places" (aka, shops, restaurants, entertainment venues, civic spaces, etc.) in the same area and reduce the number of curb cuts a pedestrian has to walk past to get from A to B, which this development does not do.

I see nothing wrong with adding more parking here, I am just very disappointed that instead of using the construction of a parking deck to as an opportunity to create a more coherent streetwall and pedestrian experience, they are constructing a big gap tooth in the urban fabric that will be there until the Wholefoods goes out of business. New parking is fine, just don't let it get in the way of connecting urban spaces and comunities.

I read a book that discussed this topic into further detail, titled, "Pedestrian and Transit-Oriented Design." It basically talks about how we can design our urban spaces to resemble, well, that of an out-door room, where buildings on all sides of this space provide the walls, where the sky is basically the endless ceiling.

Anyway, I see a bit of a very pedestrian friendly place taking shape in East Liberty, and how this new parking garage idea plays into that is up for debate. I do like how this is a multi-level parking structure, but the design could be better, as suggested by some up above. I think that BrianTH provided an excellent example of what is more desired of this parking garage with the pic of the Highland Building garage.

Now that the Buncher fiasco is on hold, I look forward to seeing in detail what these other developers have in mind. The sky should be the limit for this piece of land...

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

Nothing I love more than a good streetwall. Dramatically changes the quality of the pedestrian experience. I would never feel like walking along Centre in front of Whole Foods... it's an awful environment.

Amazing how few Walnut Streets are out there... guess people could never quite put a finger on why they loved walking in such districts so much... it's the streetwall!

Agreed!!

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

Amazing how few Walnut Streets are out there... guess people could never quite put a finger on why they loved walking in such districts so much... it's the streetwall!

If you look at how Walnut Street was built, you can see how the Street Wall happened. It wasn't originally much of a business district - it was a residential area with a few small storefronts. As East Liberty went into decline, more and more of the houses there were either knocked down and replaced with blank storefronts or else had awkward additions put onto the first floor. You can still see the vestiges of this in a few buildings which retain their old Victorian upper floors.

A lot of other East End business districts have the same root, including Ellsworth, S Highland, Bryant, and much of Murray.

[photoLith]

I love Walnut Street , just bought some new clothes at the Banana Republic there today. Pittsburgh needs more retail streets like it. I wish Ross park mall would shut down and all those stores would extend onto walnut making the shopping district three times as big, that would be epic.

[glowrock]

Originally Posted by photoLith

I love Walnut Street , just bought some new clothes at the Banana Republic there today. Pittsburgh needs more retail streets like it. I wish Ross park mall would shut down and all those stores would extend onto walnut making the shopping district three times as big, that would be epic.

Uhh, you do know that regional shopping malls really aren't going to be going anywhere, right? I agree that Walnut Street is a pretty awesome area, of course! Biggest problem with Walnut and the one thing that will keep it from getting much larger is the extreme lack of parking in Shadyside.

But anyhow, I digress...

Aaron (Glowrock)

[BrianTH]

Suburban shopping malls may be threatened by online commerce, and eventually they may also be threatened by more walkable suburban development, but I agree that for the most part they aren't going to be placed under threat by core-area commercial districts.

Which is fine with me. In fact rather than see Walnut Street expand by attracting many more of the sorts of stores typically located in suburban shopping malls (and have to add a bunch of parking to go along with it), I'd rather see more and more reinvestment in the existing neighborhood commercial districts that are not yet thriving, with lots of eclectic places to shop, eat, and so forth. So more Butler Streets, Downtown East Liberties, and so forth.

[doo dah]

Originally Posted by photoLith

I love Walnut Street , just bought some new clothes at the Banana Republic there today. Pittsburgh needs more retail streets like it. I wish Ross park mall would shut down and all those stores would extend onto walnut making the shopping district three times as big, that would be epic.

I would rather the franchises stay off Walnut Street, it (and more neighborhood business districts) need more independent retailers.

[Topher51]

Originally Posted by Found5dollar

Streetwall:
http://streetswiki.wikispaces.com/Street+Wall

basically a streetwall is what makes walking down Walnut street pleasant, and the lack of a streetwall is what makes walking along most of the east side development a chore. By hiding the parking behind a human scaled building designed to interact with the side walk, you could sew together the neighborhood and the whole area would become much more vibrant. by just adding parking you are inviting people to drive to Wholefoods and then leave right away. A bike rack and a plaza do not make an area better or more accessible for pedestrians. The best way to do that is to put more "places" (aka, shops, restaurants, entertainment venues, civic spaces, etc.) in the same area and reduce the number of curb cuts a pedestrian has to walk past to get from A to B, which this development does not do.

I see nothing wrong with adding more parking here, I am just very disappointed that instead of using the construction of a parking deck to as an opportunity to create a more coherent streetwall and pedestrian experience, they are constructing a big gap tooth in the urban fabric that will be there until the Wholefoods goes out of business. New parking is fine, just don't let it get in the way of connecting urban spaces and comunities.

Ok, got it. My background is in buildings, not planning, so when you said "street wall" I pictured some kind of a decorative screen to conceal the parking garage. Bascially, putting some ground floor retail in front of the garage with a historic looking facade would accomplish this. Maybe even with some second floor office or condos.

AGREED, I would have preferred that too. That or moving the parking below grade and having the Whole Foods above it (like the Market District down the street, withouth the limited surface parking out front) would have been ok, except that it would have been far more expensive.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Suburban shopping malls may be threatened by online commerce, and eventually they may also be threatened by more walkable suburban development, but I agree that for the most part they aren't going to be placed under threat by central-area commercial districts.

Which is fine with me. In fact rather than see Walnut Street expand by attracting many more of the sorts of stores typically located in suburban shopping malls, I'd rather see more and more reinvestment in the existing neighborhood commercial districts that are not yet thriving, with lots of eclectic places to shop, eat, and so forth. So more Butler Streets, Downtown East Liberties, and so forth.

I'd think that urban shopping is probably more threatened by online shopping than suburban shopping malls just because of the demographics of their respective shoppers. Walnut Street appeals to the younger more tech oriented demographic who's more likely to buy stuff first from Amazon or Zappos than people who frequent Ross Park.

Personally (and obviously anecdotally) I've almost forgotten about shopping in brick-and-morter stores since I've gotten so used to buying almost everything but food online. My neighborhood has a pretty desolate shopping district (Western Ave.) but there's really not much that I can think of that I'd buy there if there were stores.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by photoLith

I love Walnut Street , just bought some new clothes at the Banana Republic there today.

Nice!

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by GeneW

I'd think that urban shopping is probably more threatened by online shopping than suburban shopping malls just because of the demographics of their respective shoppers.

To be sure there are some demographic correlations for now, but those are by nature temporary in the long run, and I think the real long run determining factor will be the kind of product in question. Basically, if it is a branded product produced remotely, or a commodity-type product, and you don't need to "try it out" in person (and even that issue can be addressed with good return policies) or need in-person customer service, then online shopping is going to have a big cost and convenience advantage (particularly as entities like Amazon perfect same-day delivery).

All that is going to ultimately apply to suburbs just as much as core areas. In fact there is sort of a feedback effect where the more items you get online, the greater incentive to get even more items online, because the fixed cost of going on any given shopping trip outside the home is being spread over fewer and fewer items. And those trip-cost factors really undermine the "shopping mall" model, which basically depends on people being willing to drive farther from their home and put up with huge parking lots and lots of walking around with stuff in their hands because they can get so much shopping done in one trip.

So the future of commercial areas everywhere is really in personal service-heavy outlets--things like medical care facilities, restaurants, boutique shops and so forth. And both the suburbs and core-areas can still have lots of stuff on that model (indeed, people are increasingly spending more on such service-heavy things as they reallocate spending from products). But malls in particular are not well-suited to that sort of commerce.