South Fraser Perimeter Road/Highway 17 Extension | Completed

[crazyjoeda]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

Yes Its unfortunate we dont have more cycling paths... So risk your life biking beside 100km/hr trucks instead lol. Personally, I just think it's dumb. Drive or take transit.. There's going to be people hell bent on biking everywhere that's their choice

Cycling next to a highway is far from ideal, but in sometimes it's the only option. On some occasions the best route involves riding next to fast moving cars, but riding next to cars and trucks going 100km/hr is hardly risking your life.

I feel much safer with cars passing me then being the one having to pass slow moving cars on congested city streets. I don't think speed poses much of a safety risk to cyclist.

Cycling on a true highway like HWY1 or 99 is much more dangerous because it involves crossing exit ramps; I've done this on the upper levels highway on the north shore and it feels dodgy.

[osirisboy]

True^^ but when vehicles are travelling at those high speeds and on slick wet roads it's pretty easy for drivers to loose control even if its just veering off onto the shoulder briefly... Not really sure how you don't think it's risking your life? Lol. You all do what you want it's just bizarre to me (even safety issues aside it sounds like a horrible experience and I'm someone who cycles a lot)

[Flash604]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Curious............is there any other city on the planet that builds a 4 lane road with lights and intersections and then calls it an "expressway"?

Yes, that's how most of the planet does it, or at least the parts with both expressways and freeways in their vocabulary. The occasional level crossing is the difference between a freeway and an expressway.

When I grew up, many roads such as the I-90 through Washington state were expressways. Expressway meant a controlled access highway, usually with dual carriageways. The access was limited and most were interchanges and/or ramps, but some still could be level and might even have the occasional driveway on it. Over the years such roads had the access all upgraded to ramps only, making it a freeway.

I think what causes confusion for many is that these roads got named when they were new, and so have "Expressway" in the name of many of them, but they are now freeways.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Flash604

Yes, that's how most of the planet does it, or at least the parts with both expressways and freeways in their vocabulary. The occasional level crossing is the difference between a freeway and an expressway.

When I grew up, many roads such as the I-90 through Washington state were expressways. Expressway meant a controlled access highway, usually with dual carriageways. The access was limited and most were interchanges and/or ramps, but some still could be level and might even have the occasional driveway on it. Over the years such roads had the access all upgraded to ramps only, making it a freeway.

I think what causes confusion for many is that these roads got named when they were new, and so have "Expressway" in the name of many of them, but they are now freeways.

NY Times just posted a dialect survey recently and one of the questions was about which word you use to describe these types of roads. I answered "highway" but my childhood was split between three countries.



Still had me pegged as Seattle or Tacoma though (US cities only). Infrastructure nerds may not like the vagueness of the question but I found it interesting.

Here: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/12/20/sunday-review/dialect-quiz-map.html

[GMasterAres]

There are 2 official road designations of this sort; limited access road and controlled access road. Unfortunately their common names do overlap from region to region. Some call the first an expressway others call the second. SFPR qualifies as the first which we would call an expressway here or in Ontario you may call it a parkway. The second type of road is a full freeway with no intersections. Hwy 1 to hope would be that and we would call it a freeway. Hwy 1 though isn't all freeway. It becomes a city road through Kamloops and Calgary for example.

I would call the SFPR an expressway and as has been stayed, ignore what other cities call their roads.

[dharper]

Except for where HWY 1 crosses the Port Mann, then it goes from a freeway, to a tollway.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by Flash604

Yes, that's how most of the planet does it, or at least the parts with both expressways and freeways in their vocabulary. The occasional level crossing is the difference between a freeway and an expressway.

When I grew up, many roads such as the I-90 through Washington state were expressways. Expressway meant a controlled access highway, usually with dual carriageways. The access was limited and most were interchanges and/or ramps, but some still could be level and might even have the occasional driveway on it. Over the years such roads had the access all upgraded to ramps only, making it a freeway.

I think what causes confusion for many is that these roads got named when they were new, and so have "Expressway" in the name of many of them, but they are now freeways.

That is how I have viewed the difference between an "Expressway" and "Freeway"

There can be some confusion at times between the two. Example would be the light at 72nd and Hwy 91. Based on that one intersection it could be implied that it is an "expressway." Yet if you look at the rest of Hwy 91 it could be implied that it is a "freeway."

[WarrenC12]

The "bike lanes" on the Ladner part of the SFPR is a joke. It's a paved shoulder, nothing more.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by cabotp

That is how I have viewed the difference between an "Expressway" and "Freeway"

There can be some confusion at times between the two. Example would be the light at 72nd and Hwy 91. Based on that one intersection it could be implied that it is an "expressway." Yet if you look at the rest of Hwy 91 it could be implied that it is a "freeway."

HWY91 is difficult. It meets the definition of an expressway but not a full freeway both directions, yet it seems silly for the entire highway to not be called a freeway because of 1 light in 1 direction. Technically east/southbound it is a full freeway as there is no light at 72nd AVE for the free flow of traffic.

West/Northbound though you hit the light at 72nd so it technically isn't a freeway. Splitting hairs. Unfortunately definitions don't really allow for grey area and one offs. I don't know many other freeways like HWY91 anywhere in the world that are the same with 1 traffic light interrupting 1 direction only along the entire stretch.

We just have to chalk up HWY91 to being an oddball I think.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The "bike lanes" on the Ladner part of the SFPR is a joke. It's a paved shoulder, nothing more.

Completely agree. I don't know why anyone would want to bike on anything like the SFPR. I never really understood shoulder bike lanes anyway because without a little curb of any sort, rocks, dirt, and hazards are simply blown over into the 'bike lane' which makes it difficult to ride in them. I've tried riding down Fraser Highway for example quite a few times and it's amazing how hazardous it is to actually ride in them trying to avoid rock, glass, etc.

[DKaz]

An expressway is a limited access highway.
Freeway is a free flow highway aka no intersections. It's not free as in free of tolls.
Highway is any high speed road. I would say an average of 70 km/h or greater?

With 6 access points not including 104 Ave or Hwy 17A/Deltaport, Hwy 17 can be considered an expressway and a highway, but not a freeway.

Hwy 1 can be considered all three, but it can also be considered a tollway.

[Flash604]

Originally Posted by Flash604

I opened it last night, and then this morning I opened the portion along Burns Bog. I did this as freeway edits take a Google employee to approve so I arranged for one to do it as his last thing of today's workday. Directions, however, are another product and will take some time to update. I'm trying to see if I can get it done within a week, but it will likely be tough during Christmas week.

I forgot to post, Directions was updated two days ago.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The "bike lanes" on the Ladner part of the SFPR is a joke. It's a paved shoulder, nothing more.

I think it's nothing much more than a political gesture and appeasement to the radical far-left bike lobby in Metro Vancouver, which otherwise the protest would be so much greater leading to the cancellation of the SFPR project in the first place. I'm thinking perhaps one of the reasons why the 17 is designed to be 80km/h was because of the bike route designation (All freeways/expressways in Metro Vancouver- Hwy 1/99/91/17 should ban bikes in the first place)?

[logicbomb]

There were speed traps in both directions early this morning near Old Yale Rd. Fortunately I was doing 50km/h, though 3 drivers were being ticketed when I drove by. Who needs tolls....

[theKB]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

There were speed traps in both directions early this morning near Old Yale Rd. Fortunately I was doing 50km/h, though 3 drivers were being ticketed when I drove by. Who needs tolls....

CKNW touched on the fact that the speed limits are too low on the SFPR this morning with a statement from SENSE.

Would be interesting to hear the number of tickets issued so far. Given the fairly light traffic, i am sure the number is too high. :kook:

[Thousands Wouldn't]

Drove this route over the holidays. Christmas Eve - 32 minutes from Tsawwassen to 176th @Trans Canada. Dec 27 - 35 minutes from 176th @ Trans Canada to "parked" at the terminal. The route may be longer distance wise but so much faster than Hwy 10.

[proudcanuck]

I drove the entire length yesterday as I had to pick up relatives at the Tsawassen Ferry. I encountered 3 speed traps. I had the cruise set just below 90 in all instances and it was no issue to them. They were 2 set up westbound (1) west of CN Intermodal Yard... (2) west of the Tannery road onramp... and 1 eastbound on the return trip at the tilbury intersection.

This morning around 10:30 Delta Police had set up their trap just west of the 91 connector intersection.

I do like the road and I know with my daily commute from Walnut Grove to Steveston & #5 Road in Richmond, it will make a huge difference. I must say that some of those curves could be really fun to drive in a high performance car (with a full closed road of course!). That is the race car fan in me, but I am sensible and not a moron as that does not belong on our public roads.

I do have to say that the signage does suck for those who have not been following this project or have local knowledge of the roads.

Where 17 & 17A split in south delta, the sign for 17A to Ladner should also list access to Hwy 10 East. As well the offramp at the Hwy 99 interchange should say White Rock AND USA Border... not just USA Border.

Furthermore... if you are travelling Hwy 91 northbound you don't even know that Hwy 17 exists as none of those signs have been updated since well probably 1986. The exit lists River Road and Nordel Way. Again, only those with knowledge of the project would know it is there.

One final observation... As it has been well noted on this thread about interchanges at Tilbury and Hwy 91 Connector should have been included, interchanges should have been included as well at 56th & 52nd Ave on Hwy 17. Since this project was hailed as a way to reduce congestion... it should have been included and 4 lane right to the end of the ferry terminal causeway.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by proudcanuck

I drove the entire length yesterday as I had to pick up relatives at the Tsawassen Ferry. I encountered 3 speed traps. I had the cruise set just below 90 in all instances and it was no issue to them. They were 2 set up westbound (1) west of CN Intermodal Yard... (2) west of the Tannery road onramp... and 1 eastbound on the return trip at the tilbury intersection.

This morning around 10:30 Delta Police had set up their trap just west of the 91 connector intersection.

I do like the road and I know with my daily commute from Walnut Grove to Steveston & #5 Road in Richmond, it will make a huge difference. I must say that some of those curves could be really fun to drive in a high performance car (with a full closed road of course!). That is the race car fan in me, but I am sensible and not a moron as that does not belong on our public roads.

I do have to say that the signage does suck for those who have not been following this project or have local knowledge of the roads.

Where 17 & 17A split in south delta, the sign for 17A to Ladner should also list access to Hwy 10 East. As well the offramp at the Hwy 99 interchange should say White Rock AND USA Border... not just USA Border.

Furthermore... if you are travelling Hwy 91 northbound you don't even know that Hwy 17 exists as none of those signs have been updated since well probably 1986. The exit lists River Road and Nordel Way. Again, only those with knowledge of the project would know it is there.

One final observation... As it has been well noted on this thread about interchanges at Tilbury and Hwy 91 Connector should have been included, interchanges should have been included as well at 56th & 52nd Ave on Hwy 17. Since this project was hailed as a way to reduce congestion... it should have been included and 4 lane right to the end of the ferry terminal causeway.

It wasn't hailed as a way to reduce congestion. It was hailed as a way of moving goods easier. They didn't see the ferries as fully part of that. Roberts Bank was the focus which is why you don't see interchanges at 56th and 52nd though I absolutely agree. When you get off a ferry it takes you forever just to get to and then past 56th and always has been that way.

As for the speed traps, it's laughably predictable and unfortunately (or fortunately) the Police are stuck in this notion that speed kills when there is absolutely no proof anywhere in the world that this is the case. It's just a method of punishing law abiding citizens and making money. When they talked about reducing speeds on Hastings to 30kph because fast cars are dangerous to people j-walking my first reaction was "No, jumping out in front of moving cars is the dangerous thing. What ever happened to natural selection??"

:/

[Mininari]

Originally Posted by proudcanuck

I drove the entire length yesterday as I had to pick up relatives at the Tsawassen Ferry. I encountered 3 speed traps. I had the cruise set just below 90 in all instances and it was no issue to them. They were 2 set up westbound (1) west of CN Intermodal Yard... (2) west of the Tannery road onramp... and 1 eastbound on the return trip at the tilbury intersection.

This morning around 10:30 Delta Police had set up their trap just west of the 91 connector intersection.

I do like the road and I know with my daily commute from Walnut Grove to Steveston & #5 Road in Richmond, it will make a huge difference. I must say that some of those curves could be really fun to drive in a high performance car (with a full closed road of course!). That is the race car fan in me, but I am sensible and not a moron as that does not belong on our public roads.

I do have to say that the signage does suck for those who have not been following this project or have local knowledge of the roads.

Where 17 & 17A split in south delta, the sign for 17A to Ladner should also list access to Hwy 10 East. As well the offramp at the Hwy 99 interchange should say White Rock AND USA Border... not just USA Border.

Furthermore... if you are travelling Hwy 91 northbound you don't even know that Hwy 17 exists as none of those signs have been updated since well probably 1986. The exit lists River Road and Nordel Way. Again, only those with knowledge of the project would know it is there.

One final observation... As it has been well noted on this thread about interchanges at Tilbury and Hwy 91 Connector should have been included, interchanges should have been included as well at 56th & 52nd Ave on Hwy 17. Since this project was hailed as a way to reduce congestion... it should have been included and 4 lane right to the end of the ferry terminal causeway.

Lets hope they improve the signage in general. I just had family visit me from the mainland, and had to TELL them this thing was in service. Furthermore, they didn't really know the best way to get on it, coming from Port Moody (google maps has since updated fully to utilize the full SFPR in directions). They travelled all the way to 176st in Surrey and got on there... granted, they were VERY happy with the new route, it is also very easy to get onto the SFPR coming off the PMB going west on 108th, and accessing via Bridgeport or Tannery. I guess people will learn.

As for the speed traps, I was listening to news1130 earlier and woo-ee! sounds like those coppers were having a field day out there. Yeah, who needs tolls and expensive tolling infrastructure when you can just TICKET people going a reasonable speed?

As for the interchange comment regarding 56th st... yeah, no kidding. That light is murder with every ferry dump, and now we get to add mega-mall traffic to that area soon too? Is the megamall developer contributing money for road improvements?

Any guesses how long before we get to our 'typical' travel volumes on the SFPR? Seems that more and more people / truckers are learning that it is open and how to use it, but it will probably be several months before we can comment on whether they (REALLY) screwed up on the interchange delay, or if they have some evidence to justify holding off.

I have to say, getting onto the Alex Fraser Bridge from the SFPR to head northbound looks brutal, just by looking at the map. You have to turn left at the Sunbury intersection (which could eventually be a two or three light wait in rush hour), and then you have to make a left onto the 91 Northbound on-ramp from Nordel way, making sure NOT to get hit by the Nordel Way westbound traffic. Boy, sure it is going to be fun waiting behind a fully-loaded 53' trailer trying to make that turn. I guess if they have to start prioritizing interchanges, build this one first!

All in all, the road looks great, but signage is a problem, and connectivity to other major routes is an issue. I guess the Patullo replacement would include a full-movements interchange, whch would help... but I'm not going to wade into that political (very) slow-cooker.

[tybuilding]

Originally Posted by osirisboy

Yes Its unfortunate we dont have more cycling paths... So risk your life biking beside 100km/hr trucks instead lol. Personally, I just think it's dumb. Drive or take transit.. There's going to be people hell bent on biking everywhere that's their choice

It is a shame we don't. Our wonderful Liberal government deems it wise to spend $1.1 million per year on cycling for the entire province. We will never see lit pathways everywhere let alone pathways. We are spending $1.7 Billion per year on transportation and are only spending $1.1 million on cycling? Cycling is not getting its fair share and it will never grow with current senior government funding levels. A little bit here and there for good PR that is about all cycling gets from them, enough so they can pat themselves on the back. The best cycling gets now is highways with wide shoulders for bike lanes. There is not even going to be a decent route between the Port Mann, the Trabulay trail (Poco) and the Central Valley greenway next year. Who knows when. This is an outcry. 8/10 lanes with the highway and no bike path connecting to the existing paths, give me a break.

So if the SFPR is built to expressway standards do you think there will be money for the separated path even though it is in the Surrey Greenway plan? Big fat NO.