Huntsville updates

[stallty]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

Anecdotes are not evidence.
Montgomery is not Huntsville.
The 199,000 total and 1500 average would be about 133 games, which seems to be the total games and not the home games, but I dont know how such stats are kept or construed.
If there is not a very high probability that a stadium would be a economic benefit to HSV, there is zero reason for public money to be involved. JDS is a financial loser, not counting the future demolition.
If enough citizens want baseball then let the private sector provide it.

You are contradicting your own statements. If we cannot compare Huntsville to Montgomery's situation then the same can be said for all the cities cited in the reports you posted.

It is true every city has unique circumstances regarding their developments. However, I think Huntsville has more chance of succeeding in a downtown baseball park then Montgomery did at the time. The current stadium site is perfect for Walmart. They are currently looking for a site in that area and I am sure would pay big bucks to have that site over their current plans.

Huntsville has a very forward thinking Mayor in place who is also very fiscally responsible. I am almost positive Mayor Battle would not go forward without private investment of some form. My guess would be atleast a hotel or two and apartment building built into the plan.

The thought process you seem to have towards downtown and development in general is why Huntsville is in the predicament its in. As a young professional who just moved back to Huntsville from college, I can assure you that people in my age group are more concerned with having these type of amenities than a house with a half acre lot out in the county.

[JuanHunt]

Originally Posted by stallty

You are contradicting your own statements. If we cannot compare Huntsville to Montgomery's situation then the same can be said for all the cities cited in the reports you posted.

It is true every city has unique circumstances regarding their developments. However, I think Huntsville has more chance of succeeding in a downtown baseball park then Montgomery did at the time. The current stadium site is perfect for Walmart. They are currently looking for a site in that area and I am sure would pay big bucks to have that site over their current plans.


The thought process you seem to have towards downtown and development in general is why Huntsville is in the predicament its in. As a young professional who just moved back to Huntsville from college, I can assure you that people in my age group are more concerned with having these type of amenities than a house with a half acre lot out in the county.

Which gets back to my original question. Has there been any studies done concerning building a new baseball stadium in downtown HSV, and the answer apparently is no.

The move to have an entertainment district in downtown is a simple, cheap and effective means of generating interest in the area, and appeals to almost everybody.
Has the art museum been a boon to the park area? I go there a couple times a year, but when I do, its empty.
The use of the small amount of land remaining in downtown makes it imperative that any large land use attraction provides the largest conceivable interest among the largest number of persons.

As to why people want a house in the county with a big lot, you'd have to ask the 20,000 folks that have made that choice in Madison in the last 20 years. I live right near downtown and have some commercial property even closer to downtown so I'm very interested is the success of any venture the city implements.

[Huntsville_secede]

*sigh same old simple close minded thinking.

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

Which gets back to my original question. Has there been any studies done concerning building a new baseball stadium in downtown HSV, and the answer apparently is no.

The move to have an entertainment district in downtown is a simple, cheap and effective means of generating interest in the area, and appeals to almost everybody.
Has the art museum been a boon to the park area? I go there a couple times a year, but when I do, its empty.
The use of the small amount of land remaining in downtown makes it imperative that any large land use attraction provides the largest conceivable interest among the largest number of persons.

As to why people want a house in the county with a big lot, you'd have to ask the 20,000 folks that have made that choice in Madison in the last 20 years. I live right near downtown and have some commercial property even closer to downtown so I'm very interested is the success of any venture the city implements.

[JuanHunt]

Originally Posted by Huntsville_secede

*sigh same old simple close minded thinking.

If you have nothing constructive to offer, why continue with calling me small minded or simple mined? Does berating people personally usually get you anywhere?

"If we build it, they will come". That is the extent of your feasibility study, which would be fine if it was your money, but its not. Its our money. And our city.

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

Why dont people go to the Stars games right now?

Why no increased development activity around JDS?

Did you really just ask that question after I made it perfectly clear as to why people are not going to the games? And for the record, it has nothing to do with the product on the field. It's the horribly outdated facility.

The reason there's been no development around the JDS stadium is because it's in a bad location for commercial growth. If that were downtown and a much nicer facility, there would be major growth and development around it.

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by Huntsville_secede

*sigh same old simple close minded thinking.

I know exactly what you mean. It's my biggest pet peeve with the old folks who run the city that are small minded individuals who have no vision to make Huntsville the great city that it could be.

[JuanHunt]

Originally Posted by Huntsvillenative

Did you really just ask that question after I made it perfectly clear as to why people are not going to the games? And for the record, it has nothing to do with the product on the field. It's the horribly outdated facility.

The reason there's been no development around the JDS stadium is because it's in a bad location for commercial growth. If that were downtown and a much nicer facility, there would be major growth and development around it.

You better develop some hard evidence of those claims as the decision on the sale of the Coke plant property is going to be made soon. The current owners have some concerns that the city is working on addressing, and the cost of the demolition of the current buildings is a point of negotiation, but a contract is near.
Prentice has expressed his opinion that the city build a new park at the current location, so a downtown stadium might get some resistance from the Stars organization.
It all worked out well for Kevin Costner, so you've got that going for ya.

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

You better develop some hard evidence of those claims as the decision on the sale of the Coke plant property is going to be made soon. The current owners have some concerns that the city is working on addressing, and the cost of the demolition of the current buildings is a point of negotiation, but a contract is near.
Prentice has expressed his opinion that the city build a new park at the current location, so a downtown stadium might get some resistance from the Stars organization.
It all worked out well for Kevin Costner, so you've got that going for ya.

Prentice himself said and I quote" I would prefer a new downtown stadium".

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Guys, and those of us who are Girls, JuanHunt is only relying on economic evidence which is pleasing to his/her own eyes. CERTAINLY, the economic feasibility of a new downtown stadium should be considered; however, what he/she doesn't realize is that a large majority of us are arguing in the attempt to keep the Stars in Huntsville, not provide some magnificent or magic economic benefit to downtown (which could potentially be a pretty nice windfall).

The whole argument here is what we need to do to keep the Stars in Huntsville, not what is going to the bomb that explodes a big, fat a** wad of cash in downtown. Huntsville has seen enough semi-pro sports teams either leave for other cities (some with much slower population growth) or fold altogether, it's time the city acted to retain what it already has.

[Huntsville_secede]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

If you have nothing constructive to offer, why continue with calling me small minded or simple mined? Does berating people personally usually get you anywhere?

"If we build it, they will come". That is the extent of your feasibility study, which would be fine if it was your money, but its not. Its our money. And our city.

I don't have time to have a long winded debate about this currently. I just started reading the forum and got really frustrated so I said something. What I have noticed is that it seems that everyone on here is listening to your side, but you seem completely close minded about anything proactive being done in the city. That's what frustrates me the most about the mindset of a lot people in Huntsville who think ANYTHING you build will be a bad idea, and will opoose any type of development other than Walmarts and strip shopping centers. That's what frustrates me the most, I have lived in this city for over 8 years and I see the same thing over and over again. It doesn't matter what evidence we present to you that this could potentially be good economially for the city long term, you will reject it, so this entire discussion is really a moot point. However, I hope other residents and city officials won't be so close minded.

[JuanHunt]

If the real goal is to keep the Stars rather than promote downtown development, then those are two very different goals.
The upcoming opportunity has made me think alot more about baseball than ever before and I recommend reading this link for some history of JDS and Prentice. http://forum.brewerfan.net/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=19538&start=80 Mark McCarter is sure not impressed with Prentice and the amount of his involvement with the Stars operations.

This interview of Prentice from 2012, http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2012/12/a_conversation_with_huntsville.html, seems to indicate that he would favor a rebuild of the current park over a new downtown park, and with the push to develop the old airport property now off the ground, perhaps that is a real opportunity to create something new and different on a large scale and on land the city already owns.

That would leave some opportunities for development downtown after the Coke plant and the housing projects are gone. Assuming JDS is rebuilt, what other projects/attractions should be considered?

[Urbancity]

Well the thing is, is that building a brand new top of the line baseball stadium in downtown would not only boost downtown development and raise the desirability to live in the downtown but it would also improve the Stars attendance. You don't need facts to know this, it's the obvious and it's so clearly seen in other cities. The problem with the current stadium is it's location. It's not very impressive either. To go to a game you have to drive all the way out there and there's not anything else you can do when you're there besides attend the game. Then afterward if you want to do anything you have to drive. This is not what urban cities or any development in cities wants. The idea of having a downtown baseball stadium is great because you can pull in to a nice parking garage, be in the downtown, and if you get there early you can get something to eat or walk around in a pedestrian friendly environment. Then afterward you could get something to eat, walk around the park, or you could walk back to your hotel. Also, people don't really realize this but for visitors just driving through the city when they see a downtown baseball stadium it automatically makes the city appear young, and family friendly. You may not realize it but it really does give off that impression. Huntsville really needs this downtown baseball stadium. However, one thing that would be great is that if they added a entertainment district with it. You know not just build the stadium but include shops and restaurants in with it. Make it a mixed use development. Something sort of like this but on a smaller scale:http://www.downtownmakeover.com/downtown_reno/images/baseball/mainredneringlarge.jpg
I mean honestly how cool would it be if Huntsville had something like this. Just imagine sitting in the baseball stadium in the downtown and seeing the skyline in the outfield. Talk about improving the quality of the Huntsville Stars and the city as a whole.

[Urbancity]

Other things though that downtown Huntsville also needs to have beside a baseball stadium would be a movie theatre. Talk about creating a night life in the downtown. People going there all day and night to see movies would be a pretty big development. Restaurants and shops would also come with a development like that. Also raises the desirability factor as well. And then the other thing would be to prioritize the river walk plan. Imagine walking along the river walk where that creek runs through and have shops, restaurants, and hotels lining it. How awesome would it be if was something that could compete with San Antonio's. Yes, it is very much possible with just a little imagination and big goals. Huntsville has the potential to have a downtown that would attract people from all over. Whatever Huntsville decides to do in the downtown it needs to be over the top. You want something that when people see it they say, "Wow". You want something that people will stop and take pictures of. Something that is unique and different from all other cities, and Huntsville can most definitely do this.

[stewdog1]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

Why dont people go to the Stars games right now?

Why no increased development activity around JDS?

Those are the questions that need to be answered before the doubters are going to be convinced.

Simple. Because JDS is in a horrible area for traffic and development.

[JuanHunt]

Originally Posted by stewdog1

Simple. Because JDS is in a horrible area for traffic and development.

Better tell Walmart. They must not know what they're doing.

[Urbancity]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

Better tell Walmart. They must not know what they're doing.

This is because a baseball stadium belongs in an urban environment. It needs to be somewhere pedestrian friendly and right now JDS is not pedestrian friendly and neither is that area of town. Whereas a Walmart does not necessarily need to be in an urban environment so to say, even though they are starting to make that push. Where JDS is would be a good location for a SuperWalmart, but for a baseball stadium not so much. Because if you're going to WalMart that's all you plan on doing when you get there and you plan on driving there and driving somewhere else after, whereas when you plan to go see a baseball game in a city you would like to be able to walk around and have other things to do without having to get in the car and drive around. Especially if you are from the away team, driving around in an unfamiliar city and trying to find parking is very discouraging, and in a city that has had neglect in road projects for so long doesn't help that experience. This is why baseball stadiums and anything that draws crowds from other places needs to be in urban areas.

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by Urbancity

This is because a baseball stadium belongs in an urban environment. It needs to be somewhere pedestrian friendly and right now JDS is not pedestrian friendly and neither is that area of town. Whereas a Walmart does not necessarily need to be in an urban environment so to say, even though they are starting to make that push. Where JDS is would be a good location for a SuperWalmart, but for a baseball stadium not so much. Because if you're going to WalMart that's all you plan on doing when you get there and you plan on driving there and driving somewhere else after, whereas when you plan to go see a baseball game in a city you would like to be able to walk around and have other things to do without having to get in the car and drive around. Especially if you are from the away team, driving around in an unfamiliar city and trying to find parking is very discouraging, and in a city that has had neglect in road projects for so long doesn't help that experience. This is why baseball stadiums and anything that draws crowds from other places needs to be in urban areas.

100% correct!

[JuanHunt]

Originally Posted by Urbancity

This is because a baseball stadium belongs in an urban environment. It needs to be somewhere pedestrian friendly and right now JDS is not pedestrian friendly and neither is that area of town. Whereas a Walmart does not necessarily need to be in an urban environment so to say, even though they are starting to make that push. Where JDS is would be a good location for a SuperWalmart, but for a baseball stadium not so much. Because if you're going to WalMart that's all you plan on doing when you get there and you plan on driving there and driving somewhere else after, whereas when you plan to go see a baseball game in a city you would like to be able to walk around and have other things to do without having to get in the car and drive around. Especially if you are from the away team, driving around in an unfamiliar city and trying to find parking is very discouraging, and in a city that has had neglect in road projects for so long doesn't help that experience. This is why baseball stadiums and anything that draws crowds from other places needs to be in urban areas.

Parking access will never be better than it is at JDS right now compared to any other potential location for a stadium.
The city is planning development of the entire old airport property and the sale of the land at Airport and the Parkway was just finalized in recent days.

[MovingAL]

I think what JuanHunt is trying to point out is that studies show that public investment in sporting infrastructure does not generate the ROI that many expect it to.

See, the Miami Marlins' new stadiumhttp://www.miamiherald.com/2013/01/24/3199018/how-a-91million-loan-on-the-marlins.html
and Cincinnati's Paul Brown Stadium http://www.businessinsider.com/worst-stadium-deal-cincinnati-2011-7.
*These, of course, are worse case examples.

Also, what options have been explored other than a downtown park.

A proposal to rebuild/rehab JDS could include:
• a 360° concourse
• easier movement from the seating area to the concourse
• less bleacher seating
• outfield seating or lawn area
• lower outfield wall
• family play area
• expanded concourse
• bar and/or party deck
• more cover over seating

Also, the City could open new roads to JDS to make the area more accessible. The City could restructure the existing parking, Airport area, and other existing developments to make an urban-style development around JDS.

Would a new development on the current JDS site be cheaper? Would this option be better economically for the City? These are the questions that JuanHunt and many Huntsville residents want answered before they support the use of public funds for the Stars.

Personally, I prefer a downtown model. I see cities like Greenville, SC and Asheville, NC that have amazing central cores and I think Huntsville is way behind the development trends springing up to support new population models. http://www.forbes.com/sites/morganbrenna...s-districts-to-lure-young-professionals/

Admittedly, Asheville and Greenville redeveloped their cores without ballparks being a central item. Greenville has a downtown arena and ballpark but they were done as complementary pieces.

This part for JuanHunt
Although studies don't support public funds for private gain, results have been mixed. http://americancityandcounty.com/finance...adiums-economic-boost-or-financial-drain

Oklahoma City, Memphis, Cincinnati (Great American Ballpark), B'ham, Montgomery, Columbus (OH), Indianapolis, Charlotte, Seattle, Los Angeles, and others have used a public/private model to generate great ROI. Most cities financed the arena/ballpark or provided major infrastructure support and created an atmosphere where private developers felt inclined to spend money where the city showed a major interest and commitment to a particular area.

That's what many on the board are hoping to see happen in Huntsville: the City take a stand with downtown, letting developers know that the City is committed to seeing downtown prosper and grow. Right now, downtown has a few interested parties but for the most part developers are looking west. The fact that Constellation can sit fallow for so long seems to show that developers aren't interested in downtown. A City backed/financed stadium could change that.

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by MovingAL

I think what JuanHunt is trying to point out is that studies show that public investment in sporting infrastructure does not generate the ROI that many expect it to.

See, the Miami Marlins' new stadiumhttp://www.miamiherald.com/2013/01/24/3199018/how-a-91million-loan-on-the-marlins.html
and Cincinnati's Paul Brown Stadium http://www.businessinsider.com/worst-stadium-deal-cincinnati-2011-7.
*These, of course, are worse case examples.

Also, what options have been explored other than a downtown park.

A proposal to rebuild/rehab JDS could include:
• a 360° concourse
• easier movement from the seating area to the concourse
• less bleacher seating
• outfield seating or lawn area
• lower outfield wall
• family play area
• expanded concourse
• bar and/or party deck
• more cover over seating

Also, the City could open new roads to JDS to make the area more accessible. The City could restructure the existing parking, Airport area, and other existing developments to make an urban-style development around JDS.

Would a new development on the current JDS site be cheaper? Would this option be better economically for the City? These are the questions that JuanHunt and many Huntsville residents want answered before they support the use of public funds for the Stars.

Personally, I prefer a downtown model. I see cities like Greenville, SC and Asheville, NC that have amazing central cores and I think Huntsville is way behind the development trends springing up to support new population models. http://www.forbes.com/sites/morganbrenna...s-districts-to-lure-young-professionals/

Admittedly, Asheville and Greenville redeveloped their cores without ballparks being a central item. Greenville has a downtown arena and ballpark but they were done as complementary pieces.

This part for JuanHunt
Although studies don't support public funds for private gain, results have been mixed. http://americancityandcounty.com/finance...adiums-economic-boost-or-financial-drain

Oklahoma City, Memphis, Cincinnati (Great American Ballpark), B'ham, Montgomery, Columbus (OH), Indianapolis, Charlotte, Seattle, Los Angeles, and others have used a public/private model to generate great ROI. Most cities financed the arena/ballpark or provided major infrastructure support and created an atmosphere where private developers felt inclined to spend money where the city showed a major interest and commitment to a particular area.

That's what many on the board are hoping to see happen in Huntsville: the City take a stand with downtown, letting developers know that the City is committed to seeing downtown prosper and grow. Right now, downtown has a few interested parties but for the most part developers are looking west. The fact that Constellation can sit fallow for so long seems to show that developers aren't interested in downtown. A City backed/financed stadium could change that.

For one thing, any major renovation to the JDS would mean closing it down for at least a whole year or even two. So where would the Stars play their games? You cannot tear down the concrete bleachers that sit above the closed in concourse level and remodel it to an open air concourse in just a 6 month period. It's not possible. The whole stadium would need to be demolished, cleared and rebuilt from ground up just to bring it up to 21st century standards. And that would take at least 12-18 months.

It would also cost much more to rebuild after demolition expenses than to build a new one downtown, which in the end would lead to more future downtown developments.

A new 7,000 seat downtown stadium, with all the ball park amenities needed to match up to all other Southern League Minor League stadiums, could be built for $25 million.

An 8,500 seat double-deck stadium with top amenities could be built for $30 million.