Huntsville updates

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

Why is Huntsville seemingly 100% dependent on the state for road funding? The need for overpasses on the Pway was recognized 40 years ago, the city could have paid for their implementation and the state would have allowed the city to do so.
The new Church street project has been stumbling along for over 14 years, all the while because the city is getting the money from the state and from federal grants. It might have been a good idea 10 years ago, and might still be, but now we've lost 12 years worth of benefit.

Probably has something to do with the fact that Alabama municipalities are very limited in their abilities to provide funding for themselves without state action.

Originally Posted by *BRAVO*

It really is up to the City of Huntsville to create its own way... depending on ALDONT for fair treatment will only leave you further behind.
ALDONT is clearly controlled by politics. It's certainly not responding to current congestion, anticipated congestion, economic development or existing tax base provided by a metropolitan region. It is fully entrenched in the 'good ole boy' system.

That's what it'll come down to. Honestly, most road projects in this start really just need to become tolled projects, that's the only way anything is going to get done in the foreseeable future. Mobile River Bridge? Toll it. US 280? Toll it.

With increasing fuel efficiency in cars, gas tax just isn't enough anymore. The only way to build large scale highway projects now and in the future is by tolls. That's basically how Orlando's freeways operate.

Don't get me wrong, I don't like paying tolls; especially the damn toll you have to pay just to enter the state of Delaware on the interstate... But how else are we going to pay for the necessary improvements? Especially in a state with a public unwilling to pay increased taxes to fund these projects...

[jhsv]

Anyone know what is going on there? For the last week they have been doing some work there.

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Here's a bit of good news for Huntsville; though, it remains to be seen which team will actually make it to Biloxi.

A reprieve for Huntsville Stars? Biloxi looking toward 2015 for opening new stadium

By Mark McCarter
AL.com
LINK

HUNTSVILLE, Alabama -- The potential upheaval in the Southern League for the 2014 seems unlikely, according to reports out of Biloxi, Miss. For Huntsville Stars fans, this could be some bit of relief after an unsettled summer.

The Mississippi Business Journal is reporting that the project remains alive to bring a team to a new stadium in Biloxi, but 2015 is the more likely target date.

"We're close to closing the window on the 2014 season," Tim Bennett, head of Overtime Sports, told the publication. "It's getting to the point where we may have to look at 2015, or try to start the season in another city and move it to Biloxi at mid-season next year."

The 2014 Southern League schedule has already been set and approved by team presidents; it has been sent to the respected farm directors of the major league affiliations for their approval, typically a rubber-stamping process.

Though the league plays two separates halves, it would be unprecedented in Southern League history to move a franchise in mid-season. Such a move would require approval from the league directors and Minor League Baseball.

When asked which team would move to Biloxi, Bennett told the newspaper, "I really can't answer that question. I have to be very careful about what I say about that right now.

"I think we'll have something worked out in the next couple of weeks," said Bennett

The Huntsville Stars and Jackson (Tenn.) Generals, the two franchises with the lowest attendance figures in the league, have been mentioned as the two most likely teams to move. Jackson owners have denied any plans to move while Huntsville owner Miles Prentice refused comment on the matter in a recent interview, citing a league-wide gag order.

Huntsville officials are studying the possibility for a new downtown stadium and some potential local buyers have tried to reach Prentice to discuss a sale but he has not responded to their inquiries.

............

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by quattordici

Here's a bit of good news for Huntsville; though, it remains to be seen which team will actually make it to Biloxi.

A reprieve for Huntsville Stars? Biloxi looking toward 2015 for opening new stadium

By Mark McCarter
AL.com
LINK

Prentice is a dumbass. The Stars are already in a financial bind and he's made it clear that he really wants out of JDS. Why he wouldn't communicate with local investors shows his lack of commitment to the city and to a potential buyer of the franchise to locals. Sounds to me like he doesn't know what he wants or what he's doing.

[*BRAVO*]

Biloxi seems awfully close to Mobile and Pensacola for a franchise. I believe Pensacola has a new park.

I wonder if Mobile should be more concerned?

[HSVTiger]

Huntsville held hostage by aldot, Keep it going Mayor!

The mayor began the "Restore Our Roads" campaign in June after the Alabama Department of Transportation pulled funding for a number of strategic road projects in the metropolitan area. That included parkway overpasses at Lilly Flagg and Mastin Lake roads, the Blake Bottom Road overpass at Research Park Boulevard and the U.S. 72 East corridor with new interchanges at Moores Mill and Shields roads.

The Northern Bypass is not one of the 15 pending road projects delayed by ALDOT, but it's critical that it gets funding because all the projects are linked to each other, Battle said.

The city has already spent $2 million on engineering work. Construction for a one-mile, four-lane section along Bob Wade Lane from Pulaski Pike to U.S. 72 East is estimated to cost $55 million.

The press conferences are about educating the community about what the current and future needs are to meet traffic demands, he said, as well as getting the process started where the local leaders can work with the state to solve these problems together.

The problem the state needs to understand, Battle said, is this area needs these roads now, not 10 to 20 years from now.

"The clock is ticking and we are running out of time if we are to meet the future demands for economic growth," the mayor said.

[JuanHunt]

I must be a freak.
I have lived in HSV for 50 years and have been to 1 Stars game. Has there ever been a scientific poll done that indicates that baseball should be the core component of a downtown redevelopment initiative?
I would not go to the games if they were free, and beer was free. I might go if I could take a few swings.
I certainly dont have a sure-fire alternative, but am doubting that a stadium is the answer.

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

I must be a freak.
I have lived in HSV for 50 years and have been to 1 Stars game. Has there ever been a scientific poll done that indicates that baseball should be the core component of a downtown redevelopment initiative?
I would not go to the games if they were free, and beer was free. I might go if I could take a few swings.
I certainly dont have a sure-fire alternative, but am doubting that a stadium is the answer.

Back in the 80's to early 90's it was hard to get a ticket to a Stars game. Most were sold out. But as time went by and the city's neglect to upgrade the stadium to modern requirements, the attendance number dwindled to all time lows.

Huntsville Stars will never again draw the attendance that they once did until they relocate to another stadium and in downtown at that. The people have spoken by not going to the games and that is why attendance numbers are where they are. Most who have stopped going would just as quickly renew season tickets in a new downtown stadium. But they won't in the current rundown and outdated JDS. How do I know? Because I have spoken to dozens just off the street who WANT and support a new stadium downtown! It's one of the reasons why I keep preaching it to the mayor and to the city leaders.

Juan, it's very obvious that you do not care for baseball and that is acceptable. But to say it's not an answer for a development is not acceptable. It most certainly would be! And lead to a needed expansion to the downtown district. More businesses would be sure to follow, such as restaurants, sports bars, night clubs and retail. Not to mention, a signature tower and upscale hotels. It could also open the doors for downtown to become an entertainment district with a world-class science museum and other attractions that would lead out of town tourists to the downtown area.

No disrespect, but small minded thinking is why downtown Huntsville and the city in general is where it is today.

[HSVTiger]

It is probably safe to say that every city that has built a downtown baseball stadium in the last 20 years has been very successful and created other development in the city. Huntsville would be even more so I believe because of the tremendous potential. There has to be a catalyst and the stadium would be it, the naysayers can stay in their basements and write negative blogs.
Imagine if this city had people that designed and built a rocket to take man to the moon (six times) oh wait..we did that.

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Originally Posted by *BRAVO*

Biloxi seems awfully close to Mobile and Pensacola for a franchise. I believe Pensacola has a new park.

I wonder if Mobile should be more concerned?

I think that Mobile, like Huntsville, shows too much potential in what they could do with a new stadium location for the team.

From a quick search, it appears that the BayBears' lease ends in 2017 (two years after the Stars', correct?)

This whole Biloxi fiasco leaves a lot of unaswered questions floating in the air. I'd like to think that with so much desire around Huntsville to build a new stadium downtown, Prentice would be more than willing to work with the city to get it done. It baffles me that (assuming he is working with Biloxi) he would consider Biloxi to be an opportunity to grow the franchise It seems like Huntsville would be a much more fertile market considering the activity in downtown and the more rapidly growing (and much larger) population around Huntsville...

[JuanHunt]

So the answer to my small minded question is "no, there has been no scientific polling". I have asked people I know and they have no interest in a downtown stadium either. I could mention some of the influential people I know, only for you to claim them must also be small minded, so I wont.

The city must do proper market surveys before spending any money. Lets ask Google about stadium economics.

J.C. Bradbury, an economist and professor at Kennesaw State University who wrote “The Baseball Economist: The Real Game Exposed,” said new stadiums rarely generate the expected returns.

“I will tell you that there is little evidence that these stadiums have much economic impact,” said Bradbury, who also blogs about the economics of baseball at www.sabernomics.com.

“Economists have studied this for two decades and no credible academic study has found any significant positive benefits. The studies out there that tout benefits are from the same folks who brought us ‘Where's the beef?’ commercials. It's PR spin, nothing more.”

Economic studies back up Bradbury. Economist Arthur Jones, a professor at the University of Maryland Baltimore County, concluded in his book “Minor League Baseball and Economic Development” that “minor league baseball has the economic impact equivalent of a large pet shop.”

Another economist, Dennis Coates, also at the University of Maryland Baltimore County, wrote in the Journal of the American Enterprise Institute that research has shown that new stadiums can actually reduce local incomes.

http://web.kennesaw.edu/news/stories/field-pipe-dreams

Literally hundreds of other studies and books — by individuals such as long-time sports economists Arthur T. Johnson in "Minor League Baseball and Economic Development" (1995), Mark Rosentraub in "Major League Losers" (1997), Kenneth Shropshire in "The Sports Franchise Game" (1995), Roger Noll and Andrew Zimbalist in "Sports, Jobs, and Taxes" (1997), and Michael N. Danielson in "Home Team" (1997) — reach the same conclusion: Public support of professional and minor league sports is a bad investment.

In practically none of the cities these studies examined did new sports stadiums lead to any significant new private investment or provide for any significant economic benefits to the local economy besides the jobs generated by the initial capital construction of the stadiums. More important, the new stadiums generally were not even profitable or self-financing. Nor could cities point to rising land prices or economic development in the surrounding community. Even as tourist attractions, the stadiums either simply transferred sales from somewhere else or failed to demonstrate that the local hotels were filled as a result of the sports events.

http://www.minnpost.com/community-voices...ly-taxpayer-handouts-professional-sports

[SpawnOfVulcan]

^^^^^^^^^^^ I'm not going to deny that building a new stadium downtown isn't a sure thing, cause there is always a risk. But, I do have to find issue with the fact that the Minneapolis article you used cites studies from the late 90s. Current attitudes about downtown are hardly the same as they were in the late 90s.

Just as ALDOT is using an environmental impact study that is decades old to push the Northern Beltline in Birmingham forward, you can't use studies that were carried out over a decade ago; that's a terrible practice in planning.

I certainly don't deny that you and others don't have any interest in visiting a ballpark in downtown, it's hardly an easy task to try and refute something that is obviously true. However, I seriously doubt that you've been in contact with the over 600,000 people that live in and around Huntsville.

There are plenty of cases where a new downtown ballpark didn't necessarily lead to success (Buffalo, NY is one great example), but there are also plenty of instances where it has lead to great success (Birmingham and Montgomery, which are much more like Huntsville than a place like Buffalo).

There's no assurance a new stadium would be successful, but we would be remiss if we didn't at least take a serious look at it.

[JuanHunt]

How about 2011:

The presence of certain types of minor league teams and new stadiums may increase income in a community, albeit by modest amounts. Per capita income was raised $67 by the introduction of a new Triple-A team and $118 by a High-A team. In addition, building a new Double-A stadium was associated with a $161 increase in per capita income and a new rookie league stadium was associated with a $202 increase.
No significant effect was found for the introduction of a Double-A, Single-A, Low-A, rookie league, or independent league team. Similarly, no significant effect was found for a new Triple-A, High-A, Single-A, Low-A or independent league stadium.
Overall, there were no significant negative income effects associated with any team or stadium type. In other words, where the measurable impact was not positive, it was neutral and not statistically significant.

http://journalistsresource.org/studies/e...tadiums-teams-case-minor-league-baseball

I'll leave the analysis and study of the reports to the great minds of the baseball-inclined.

Feel free to post some contradictory reports, I couldn't find any.

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

How about 2011:




http://journalistsresource.org/studies/e...tadiums-teams-case-minor-league-baseball

I'll leave the analysis and study of the reports to the great minds of the baseball-inclined.

Feel free to post some contradictory reports, I couldn't find any.

You seem to imply that I'm arguing this is a sure win. I'm not going to post any contradictory reports, because you seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. Yes, you found a more recent study, good for you. But as long as you continue to only pay attention to one aspect of what I said, I consider it a waste of my time to continue arguing in a fashion that mimics a phone conversation with a person entering a tunnel....

[JuanHunt]

Originally Posted by quattordici

You seem to imply that I'm arguing this is a sure win. I'm not going to post any contradictory reports, because you seem to be ignoring what I'm saying. Yes, you found a more recent study, good for you. But as long as you continue to only pay attention to one aspect of what I said, I consider it a waste of my time to continue arguing in a fashion that mimics a phone conversation with a person entering a tunnel....

I was responding to exactly what you said, the age of the report.
Post the contradictory reports, I would very much like to see them as they could/should be part of the decision making process.
I would love to see central HSV revitalized, and if a baseball stadium is approved, I hope it is a tremendous success. What worries me, and this is based info from another source, is that the baseball stadium decision has already been made and as soon as the city can work a deal on the Coke plant, the design and construction will begin.
Its imperative that the city evaluates all the potential attractions that might warrant public investment.

[SpawnOfVulcan]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

I was responding to exactly what you said, the age of the report.
Post the contradictory reports, I would very much like to see them as they could/should be part of the decision making process.
I would love to see central HSV revitalized, and if a baseball stadium is approved, I hope it is a tremendous success. What worries me, and this is based info from another source, is that the baseball stadium decision has already been made and as soon as the city can work a deal on the Coke plant, the design and construction will begin.
Its imperative that the city evaluates all the potential attractions that might warrant public investment.

That wasn't the only thing that I mentioned; you completely ignored the second half of what I said.

Just so you don't have to scroll up to see what I said:

I certainly don't deny that you and others don't have any interest in visiting a ballpark in downtown, it's hardly an easy task to try and refute something that is obviously true. However, I seriously doubt that you've been in contact with the over 600,000 people that live in and around Huntsville.

There are plenty of cases where a new downtown ballpark didn't necessarily lead to success (Buffalo, NY is one great example), but there are also plenty of instances where it has lead to great success (Birmingham and Montgomery, which are much more like Huntsville than a place like Buffalo).

There's no assurance a new stadium would be successful, but we would be remiss if we didn't at least take a serious look at it.

The Birmingham Barons lead the Southern League in attendance by 199,000 total, and over 1,500 in average attendance; Montgomery Biscuits have the fourth highest attendance with the 5th largest stadium (it opened in 2004); the Pensacola Blue Wahoos whose stadium opened in 2012 have the third highest attendance despite having the smallest stadium in the Southern League. All three of these stadiums are in their city's downtown. LINK

In addition to those above stats, the Barons' last season in the Hoover Met experienced a total attendance that was in the bottom half of the Southern League.

The Montgomery Biscuits have experienced a total attendance in the top half of the Southern League since 2005.

In addition, since 2005, every team in the Southern League in the bottom half of total attendance (except, oddly, for Chattanooga) played in a stadium that WAS NOT in downtown. These were teams like Jackson, TN, Knoxville, TN, Mobile, Huntsville, and Mississippi).

Since Montgomery's Riverwalk Stadium the Alleyway has been completely, lower Dexter Ave streetscaping and reinvestment is actively occurring, among other things. If you want any other proof from MGM, PM one of those forumers.

Since Regions Field opened, Good People Brewing has announced that they're expanding. 3 apartment projects have been announced immediately surrounding the stadium with more to come. Read through the Birmingham Development Thread if you need anymore proof of the impact of that stadium.

Those results pretty much support the idea that new downtown stadiums can be successful.

If you want to see studies that contradict the ones that you posted, I'm not going to make your argument for you, please go look yourself since I was never arguing in the first place about how a downtown stadium could increase per capita income or be economically beneficial in a city. My argument has always been that it would go a long way to encourage the Stars to stay for the long term (assuming that building a new stadium was contingent on them signing a long term contract). I think you can look at Regions Field and the Riverwalk Stadium in Montgomery and see that those teams are there to stay.

I've more than made my point.

[*BRAVO*]

I love when quat gets on a tear.

[JuanHunt]

Anecdotes are not evidence.
Montgomery is not Huntsville.
The 199,000 total and 1500 average would be about 133 games, which seems to be the total games and not the home games, but I dont know how such stats are kept or construed.
If there is not a very high probability that a stadium would be a economic benefit to HSV, there is zero reason for public money to be involved. JDS is a financial loser, not counting the future demolition.
If enough citizens want baseball then let the private sector provide it.

[Huntsvillenative]

Originally Posted by JuanHunt

Anecdotes are not evidence.
Montgomery is not Huntsville.
The 199,000 total and 1500 average would be about 133 games, which seems to be the total games and not the home games, but I dont know how such stats are kept or construed.
If there is not a very high probability that a stadium would be a economic benefit to HSV, there is zero reason for public money to be involved. JDS is a financial loser, not counting the future demolition.
If enough citizens want baseball then let the private sector provide it.

If you cannot see the bigger picture to having a downtown stadium then you obviously cannot understand it's long term importance. Let me break it down.

Look at downtown Huntsville today. All it has going for it is the Propst Arena, Big Spring Park, and the Embassy Suites Hotel and convention center. But none of that is bringing in new businesses.

Now, add a baseball stadium in that mix and all of a sudden you have people coming to downtown practically EVERY NIGHT for baseball for 6 months a year! That's thousands a night that wouldn't have any other reason to go downtown except to see a concert or sporting event at the arena. Having that many people walking around downtown before and after games would lead to investors following right behind with sports bars and restaurants and retail shops in no time!

As I have said before, having a new downtown stadium which would impact visitors to that part of town, would lead to even bigger developments such as the overdue Science Center. maybe even a state Aquarium like in Chattanooga. The possibilities are endless!

Now, say the city decides that this isn't a good investment and blows it and decides to let the stars leave. Then what? Downtown would not see any growth or new attractions that could lure in tourists and money that the city needs. Huntsville's downtown would remain virtually a ghost town after dark with the exception of the yearly Big Spring Jam type of events. But nowhere near on a regular basis as baseball would bring.

This is why the old Mayberry leadership that this city has had for decades needs to WAKE UP and GROW UP and see the potential for downtown and for what a new state of the art baseball stadium would do for the image, the new gateway to a redeveloped downtown and for revenue stream to the area. It would effect us all!!!

[JuanHunt]

Originally Posted by Huntsvillenative

Now, add a baseball stadium in that mix and all of a sudden you have people coming to downtown practically EVERY NIGHT for baseball for 6 months a year! That's thousands a night that wouldn't have any other reason to go downtown except to see a concert or sporting event at the arena. Having that many people walking around downtown before and after games would lead to investors following right behind with sports bars and restaurants and retail shops in no time!

This is why the old Mayberry leadership that this city has had for decades needs to WAKE UP and GROW UP and see the potential for downtown and for what a new state of the art baseball stadium would do for the image, the new gateway to a redeveloped downtown and for revenue stream to the area. It would effect us all!!!

Why dont people go to the Stars games right now?

Why no increased development activity around JDS?

Those are the questions that need to be answered before the doubters are going to be convinced.