Millennium Line - Evergreen Extension | Completed

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

For clarification, I got that info from a look up of the Canadian Public Transit Database. In the past some trips extended to Scott Road SkyTrain Station. At an unspecified date, this was modified to New West Station, until service cuts in 2001 ended these extensions.

Well, I'm sorry if in your experience the reroute did not create benefits, but I think you really need to realize that your excessive comments pinning your problems on the SkyTrain system, while valid as potential reasons for them, are not the sole reasons for them if reasons at all, as you seem to suggest.

It isn't as simple as you think. nname makes an excellent point about the need for layover space and more passenger waiting areas, and deasine makes a great point on the efficiency and operational cost of this. This is where SkyTrain becomes quite an advantage, actually. Through its reliable, predictable service (even if it were not as frequent as the Expo Line, it's still extremely reliable and predictable and can be trusted by passengers) the splitting of hubs is feasible, probably never causing more than a 5 minute delay and creating efficiency in costs and in management.
.

My reasons are valid, I don't need to look up anything at some database to prove it. I was a 145 user, and their decision to change it has negative effects on its users. Plus factor in the unreliability of buses, including the 97, and I can assure you, delays can exceed more than 5 mins.

There are some things in life that cannot be measures by these statistics, sometimes personal experience triumphs more than anything. Just look at aberdeen's comment on your closing of Mark1 skytrain windows to prove that. And if cost savings should supercede, then perhaps Surrey should never have the more costly Skytrain system, right?

As a user, I couldn't care less for Translink's selective rationalizations. After all, if they truly want to be effecient, they can save more money in cutting their own excessive fat than rerouting a bus route with negative consequences. After they changed 145, I never took the bus to SFU again.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by nname

A 2 minutes saving on the 145 means 15%, since the route is so short. However, I think its more than 2 minutes though, as Lougheed going toward Austin Ave seems to be jammed up everyday during PM peak...

Another thing is that, having the 145 going to Lougheed means they need to build a much larger bus loop. For a high frequency service like the 145, they need a bus bay suitable for articulated bus, plus 2-3 layover spots. Ever noticed the 145s parked on Lougheed Highway, or the 99s parked on Grandview Hwy behind the SkyTrain station, or even the dedicated layover spots for the 97s at Coquitlam stations? That's alot of extra spaces needed for an already busy bus loop in term of bus movements. Plus any available space would most likely be reserved for 97, as it is another potentially demanding route.

Also, the 145 do not get moved to Burquitlam. According to the previous LRT plan, the 143 will become a FTN route, but the segment between Burquitlam and SFU will receive extra short-turn service essentially giving a 4min peak headway. The 145 will remain as-is (with possibly a slight reduction of service since 143 will be taking over some of the load).

The situation with the 145 is not as extreme. There is no need to build a larger bus loop in any circumstance, Austin is not that congested, and the old system worked like a charm. And the 97 will never be a demanding route because people would never want to take it unless they really have too.

At the end of the day, Evergreen will attract riders from their cars and into transit, that's the beauty of this project. That is one thing 97 will never do. And once finished, Evergreen will finally fix that abomination that these out of touch planners did to its users, wrt the 145.

[Echowinds]

When the Canada Line was completed, the 480 terminus was moved from Richmond Centre to Bridgeport. I think it mirrors the 145 change.

The Canada Line did not need the extra ridership padding because it obviously exceeded Translink's goals, but they went on to do it anyways. The 480 change definitely inconvenienced UBC students from Richmond that relied on the route, and there weren't really much if any time savings for them. Factoring in the suboptimal frequencies of the 40# routes, many of which far worse than the 97, this change is purely for Translink efficiency over any sort of ridership comfort. I didn't particularly liked the change, but I see the rationale of it.

For a public transit system to not bleed too much money, compromises have to be made. Wouldn't it be nice to have a line directly from my house to where I need to go? You might be taking it a bit too personally.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Sorry Deasine but I find [xd_1771's] comment that my post being "baseless" extremely offensive and insulting. Especially since I experience first hand the stupidity of the 145 rerouting, and the frustration of this project taking so long to happen. He needs to show some respect and be careful with the way he comments. And if what he says is true that he came from the Phils, respect for "elders" should be part of his culture...

He commented on your post, not you as an individual. In your words then, given that you consider yourself an "elder", you should have more than the capability to see this. Regardless, respect should be earned: with posts such as the one in question and others revealing of forum member names, I can't see why xd_1771, or other forum members in fact, need to "show respect to you."

I'm sure everyone has heard of the saying "do not feed the trolls." If anyone feels others are out-of-line in their discussion, you are invited to contact a moderator: either jlousa, red-paladin, or myself, do not try to take on another member yourself.

I don't disagree with you that one additional transfer for something of such short distance is an inconvenience. But other arguments posted are based on hard figures and not just subjectivity. As a whole however, ridership for the 145 has increased significantly in the past which to me shows that the changes are not perceived as inconvenient to society as a whole as it does to yourself. Given the increase in overall ridership along with the monetary savings of shortening the route, why not shorten the route?

[NewWester]

I guess what I was trying to ask, and I apologize if this was hashed out in the past and I missed it, is why are they terminating Millenium trains at Lougheed rather than running the Lougheed-Commercial span as degenerate Millenium/Evergreen line (in the style of the Columbia-Waterfront Expo/Millenium)? Back-in-the-day I had always assumed this was the plan, but I'm not an urban planner, so what do I know?

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by deasine

He commented on your post, not you as an individual. In your words then, given that you consider yourself an "elder", you should have more than the capability to see this. Regardless, respect should be earned: with posts such as the one in question and others revealing of forum member names, I can't see why xd_1771, or other forum members in fact, need to "show respect to you."

I'm sure everyone has heard of the saying "do not feed the trolls." If anyone feels others are out-of-line in their discussion, you are invited to contact a moderator: either jlousa, red-paladin, or myself, do not try to take on another member yourself.

I don't disagree with you that one additional transfer for something of such short distance is an inconvenience. But other arguments posted are based on hard figures and not just subjectivity. As a whole however, ridership for the 145 has increased significantly in the past which to me shows that the changes are not perceived as inconvenient to society as a whole as it does to yourself. Given the increase in overall ridership along with the monetary savings of shortening the route, why not shorten the route? To tie it back with the Evergreen Line discussion, this is why TransLink will further reduce the 145-route to Burquitlam station.

The elder comment was directed on the fact that [Removed] would have normally show some respect to those that are older, due to more life experiences. Its embedded in our culture and its hard not to ignore given he presents himself as some kind of all knowing expert in this forum and in other publications. If he was some other less profile forumer, its probably easier. But I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts if Malcomn Johnston were to start posting here, a lot of people would react similarly.

Nothing to do with me wanting respect. Whether people agree with me or nit, I don't care. All I care is the Evergreen gets built, me participating in discussions is just a time filler. Its just so happen the 145 is an issue I exoerience first hand, despite over a decade ago, it still fresh in my mind.

I don't disrespect his opinions, I even agree to some of them. But his methodology is flawed, as its selective to advance a specific cause. As far as modding is concerned, almosg 14 years in the forum has thought me such reporting functions simply do nit work. My "attack" is tame compared to the once I had endured, reported, but ignored. Hence why I'm only active in a handful of threads...

[deasine]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

The elder comment was directed on the fact that [Removed] would have normally show some respect to those that are older, due to more life experiences. Its embedded in our culture and its hard not to ignore given he presents himself as some kind of all knowing expert in this forum and in other publications. If he was some other less profile forumer, its probably easier. But I'm willing to bet dollars to doughnuts if Malcomn Johnston were to start posting here, a lot of people would react similarly.

Common forum etiquette is to not point out people's real names or people. This is what aliases and user names exist. I know and have met many here personally, but this does not give me the right to publicly point out others and this is to be expected from all other forum members. I'm not sure I agree: for the most part, even if there are disagreements, discussions generally have constructive criticism.

Just a note for everyone, jlousa, red_paladin, and myself will be aiming to improve the overall quality of the posts discussed here at SSP:Vancouver and we home members comply to achieve an overall better forum.

Originally Posted by queetz@home

As far as modding is concerned, almosg 14 years in the forum has thought me such reporting functions simply do nit work. My "attack" is tame compared to the once I had endured, reported, but ignored. Hence why I'm only active in a handful of threads...

That's a matter of subjective opinion. Regardless, rules and common forum etiquette has been broken and thus, there is no justification. I only follow what is in the handbook all members are subject to forum rules, which can be found in the announcement section of SSP:Vancouver or linked here. Please pay particular attention to Sections 1, Articles 1, 2, 12, 13, 14, 15.

I cannot comment on past events as none of which have been brought to my attention, but there are many ways to reach moderators here including a PM. In fact, the PM is probably the fastest and most direct way to reach our attention and we will do our best to resolve the situation. In the future, I hope you can use this mode of communication instead. This post will mark the end of our discussion here. Should you wish to continue this, you can send a personal PM to me and fellow moderators.

[BCPhil]

I do see where queetz@home is coming from. All the buses from the Eastern Tri Cities terminate at Lougheed (or Braid) and if you are going to SFU (a common destination) then you HAVE to ride Skytrain for 1 or 2 stations. In the early years it definitely did boost ridership numbers on the Skytrain, and queetz@home is right in that many people referred to the M line as the train from nowhere to nowhere.

I rode the M line from the day it opened through 2007 (taking the 97B line to Lougheed). I can attest to in the early years how many people would get off buses, get on the train at Lougheed, and get off at Production Way. In the later years of my commuting, more and more people would ride the train past SFU, but early on there were a lot of riders who were being counted as "riding Skytrain" because they were using as a 1 stop hop over between buses.

That said, currently, with a lot more people riding transit in that area, it makes sense to have the SFU bus terminate at it's own bus loop (basically). It allows more room for the buses and passengers, as there are now more students going to SFU from SOF than before (as years went by I would notice how many more people from Production would ride past Lougheed).

However, in the future, when Evergreen opens what should be done? When Evergreen opens, there is going to be an extra transfer for riders that doesn't exist today. Fortunately, to SFU the transfer will be cross platform. And if you really wanted to, you could ride the 143 to Burquitlam Station, ride the Evergreen line to Lougheed, then do a cross Platform to the Millennium line when traveling from SFU (if you hate stairs that much).

And I can see the argument that maybe they should move the bus to SFU to Lougheed. One of the main arguments against doing that today is not enough space. But when the Evergreen Line opens, there will be a lot of space cleared up from an eliminated 97B line. That space could be used for Express Service to SFU, eliminating the need for thousands to perform an extra transfer.

Now that does depend on how much space the Rapid Bus to Langley takes up at Lougheed. But my guess is not a lot because it will open at Lougheed well before construction on Evergreen is done. Therefore there is enough capacity at Lougheed right now to handle existing service AND rapid bus. So when the 97B line is removed from the terminal, that would free up plenty of space for SFU service. Then that way you have people transferring from Millennium line and Rapid Bus at Lougheed.

But I think the point is moot if we can ever get the Gondola to SFU built.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by NewWester

I guess what I was trying to ask, and I apologize if this was hashed out in the past and I missed it, is why are they terminating Millenium trains at Lougheed rather than running the Lougheed-Commercial span as degenerate Millenium/Evergreen line (in the style of the Columbia-Waterfront Expo/Millenium)? Back-in-the-day I had always assumed this was the plan, but I'm not an urban planner, so what do I know?

Probably because the timing required to interline the Millennium Line at both Lougheed and Columbia could easily be messed up by a delay on the system.
It may also be that the number of trains required to serve demand is better apportioned by focussing on the Expo Line to Surrey and the Everegreen Line to Coquitlam. There isn't much demand to "ride the loop" past Braid and Sapperton).

[Ehlun]

Millennium Line from VCC-Clark to Columbia
Evergreen Line from VCC-Clark to Lafarge-Lake Douglas
Expo Line Line to King George

Would seem to correct all the concerns raised?

But would this allow them to maintain the current 2-3 minute headway on the combined Expo/Millennium Line from Waterfront to Columbia?

[nname]

Originally Posted by Ehlun

Millennium Line from VCC-Clark to Columbia
Evergreen Line from VCC-Clark to Lafarge-Lake Douglas
Expo Line Line to King George

Would seem to correct all the concerns raised?

But would this allow them to maintain the current 2-3 minute headway on the combined Expo/Millennium Line from Waterfront to Columbia?

Except Columbia isn't built to be a transfer point, let alone terminus. At the minimum, a third track and third platform would be required for the train to turnaround.

Lougheed have the facility to be a much better transfer point/terminus. Just compare them:

			Lougheed	Columbia
Tracks/platforms	 3		 2
Entrances		 3		 3
Accessible entrances	 3		 1 or 2
Elevators		 4		 2
Up escalators		 4		 1
Down escalators		 3 or 4		 0
Cross-platform transfer	 YES		 NO
Transfer w/ elevator	 YES x2		 NO
Transfer w/ escalator	 YES x2		 NO

See how Lougheed wins over almost every point. On top of those, Lougheed have a much larger passenger circulation space than Columbia.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Ehlun

Millennium Line from VCC-Clark to Columbia
Evergreen Line from VCC-Clark to Lafarge-Lake Douglas
Expo Line Line to King George

Where do Braid and Sapperton fit into this scheme?

[huenthar]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Probably because the timing required to interline the Millennium Line at both Lougheed and Columbia could easily be messed up by a delay on the system.
It may also be that the number of trains required to serve demand is better apportioned by focussing on the Expo Line to Surrey and the Everegreen Line to Coquitlam. There isn't much demand to "ride the loop" past Braid and Sapperton).

Yes I think it was the practicality of interlining with 2 other routes simultaneously.

I wonder, though, if the Millennium Line could interline past Lougheed for just a single stop, and terminate at SFU instead. Don't have to worry about timing for the Evergreen interline since it's only going one stop. If needed, a third SFU platform could be built along with the gondola base station.

[nname]

Originally Posted by huenthar

Yes I think it was the practicality of interlining with 2 other routes simultaneously.

I wonder, though, if the Millennium Line could interline past Lougheed for just a single stop, and terminate at SFU instead. Don't have to worry about timing for the Evergreen interline since it's only going one stop. If needed, a third SFU platform could be built along with the gondola base station.

Interlining for that stretch between Lougheed and Production would be very problematic. The Evergreen Line is going to start with train running at least every 3 minutes. The Millennium Line have train every 5min 24sec - so it would be quite difficult to insert them into the gap without big delays. Even if they increase the Evergreen mainline frequency to 2min 42sec so the Millennium trains can be fit into every second gap, the minimum gap between trains would now become 1min 21sec, putting the Evergreen Line right near the minimum headway from day one. Unless if they want to run the entire Evergreen line with uneven headway (ie. Surrey portion of Expo Line), but that's also far from ideal, especially for the section near Commercial-Broadway.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by nname

Interlining for that stretch between Lougheed and Production would be very problematic. The Evergreen Line is going to start with train running at least every 3 minutes. The Millennium Line have train every 5min 24sec - so it would be quite difficult to insert them into the gap without big delays.

How is that any different than inserting Millennium line trains into the frequent Expo line service, which seems to work without any particular problems...?

[nname]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

How is that any different than inserting Millennium line trains into the frequent Expo line service, which seems to work without any particular problems...?

The Millennium train interline and run all the way to Waterfront, so it have an even headway of 1min 48sec throughout most of the route (sacrificing only a short 4 station segment in Surrey). As mention before, doing the same to the Evergreen Line would result in the interline of three SkyTrain lines, and if there is a problem in any particular section, all 3 lines will be affected.

[officedweller]

The problem is the time it takes for the train to reverse direction on the main guideway. i.e. time for track switches to change, the train to clear the switch, the train to stop, the train to start start in the other direction, the track switches to change back, and the train to clear the switch the other way.

That's quite a bit different than the situation where you have the 3rd platform - at Lougheed - where the interruption is only the time it takes for the switches to change, the moving train to clear a switch and the switch to switch back. The stopping and reversing direction is taken out of the equation because it is at the additional platform, not on the main guideway.

That's also why you can't have a train short-turn at Columbia.

Note that trains that short-turn at Metrotown or at Broadway Stations do so "off the mainline" at the storage tracks east of each station, with their re-entry onto the mainline timed properly. One question is whether those storage tracks are long enough to allow a 5 car MkII train to reverse using them (pesumably they are at least 80 m)

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by nname

The Millennium train interline and run all the way to Waterfront, so it have an even headway of 1min 48sec throughout most of the route (sacrificing only a short 4 station segment in Surrey). As mention before, doing the same to the Evergreen Line would result in the interline of three SkyTrain lines, and if there is a problem in any particular section, all 3 lines will be affected.

The challenge is fitting the trains into the gaps, not how far they run once they're slotted into place. And with two stops between Columbia and Lougheed there's plenty of leeway for the automated system to adjust dwell times and speeds so as to effect an efficient "merge" between trains.

But I agree with OfficeDweller that it's not feasible to turn trains at Production Way. If you're going to go that way, you might as well run Millenium Line trains right to the end as is done today. The biggest issue I see with this (aside from the need for more rolling stock) is that it limits the maximum frequencies on the Evergreen segment outbound of Lougheed. In truth, though, the same can be said of the Expo line outbound of Columbia. I think in the long term the stretch that includes Braid and Sapperton is going to be a problem.

[Zassk]

In the long term, a rebuild of Columbia seems like a necessity. A three- (or four-) platform Columbia Station would allow for lots of flexibility in the network. Translink could short-turn Expo trains at Columbia, or run Millennium Line as a "tail" off of either Expo or Evergreen lines, or run a short Millennium Line shuttle between Lougheed and Columbia.

[NucksFanInVan]

Originally Posted by Zassk

In the long term, a rebuild of Columbia seems like a necessity. A three- (or four-) platform Columbia Station would allow for lots of flexibility in the network. Translink could short-turn Expo trains at Columbia, or run Millennium Line as a "tail" off of either Expo or Evergreen lines, or run a short Millennium Line shuttle between Lougheed and Columbia.

Or better still: replace the Lougheed-Columbia section with LRT and extend the Millenium Line along the existing rail ROW to meet the Canada Line at Marine Drive!