Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[Berklon]

Originally Posted by elly63

What do you think of this, better? I'd be interested if you watched the video and if that would change your perception any.

I wouldn't put too much faith in that video, when it shows newer homes surrounding the stadium and blanks out the lovely view of the dirty industry in the background. The stadium will look worse in reality than it does in the video - and it doesn't look that great in the video to being with.

The truth is it's a VERY underwhelming stadium in a horrible location aesthetically (poor neighbourhood with views of industry) and in terms of convenience for Hamiltonians and especially people in the GTA (take the GO train downtown, and then take a bus, cab or walk to the stadium. yaaay, fun!).

I would love if they were to just cancel the project.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Berklon

I would love if they were to just cancel the project.

Shakes head...and people are saying here Hamilton deserves better. If I thought that was the prevailing attitude, I'd say Hamilton deserves another 30 years of Ivor Wynne, problem is, it's flattened.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

@elly63

You keep cherry picking models/ renders of the stadium with end zone seating. That is not part of the plan and you know it. It'll be some time before we see that and even when it does happen it'll be no different from Ivor Wynne, so whoop-dee-f*ckin-doo!

I would say this discussion has degenerated to 'flaming' levels (to use the vernacular of an Internet nerd). And you've already 'outed' yourself by saying you have a connection to this stadium.

To sum up: you love Ivor Wynne II unconditionally; others are terribly disappointed.

What more can be said?

[GernB]

Originally Posted by elly63

What do you think of this, better? I'd be interested if you watched the video and if that would change your perception any.

Yeah, it's more impressive. But you can see what I mean about the upper decks. They don't extend as far the lower. Not sure why they'd put seating in the south end zone other than for a Grey Cup; wasn't that supposed to be a plaza/party deck?

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

Things make sense now. I'm afraid your intransigent defence of this worse-than-mediocre stadium is likely based more on personal reasons than on an objective assessment of the building's architectural merits.

That's what I suspected, but didn't want to jump to any conclusions in the absence of the facts. 'Elly' is usually objective, but seemed to defend this project to the high hills despite its obvious short comings. He's too close to this project to see it for what it is. Sorry 'Elly'. If you like it, fine, but we're not all crazy or 'juvenile'.

[elly63]

First of all, find somewhere where I said I loved it. My original disappointment was in the comparison to Regina and Winnipeg, once over that I took a second look. All I'm saying is that it is not as bad as people say it is and I think the levels of venom applied to this project come from somewhere else. What would people say if that is what they got for 119 million and the two other stadiums weren't there to compare to?

And give me a little credit for having enough brains not to "out" myself. The person I know has nothing to do with my opinion and I didn't even have to mention it. I had a little insight into the project and was trying to explain to some here who can't seem to grasp that this is a miniscule budget and their expectations are out of whack.

I'm still being objective, do I wish it looked like BC Place or Regina, yes, but unless they came up with another 200 million it wasn't going to happen. So I had a second look to see what I could find that I liked. Can someone tell me what good this criticism and whining about the stadium serves? No one has answered that question yet.

What more can be said? It is what it is, get over it. That's what can be said!

And it is juvenile when the extent of people's arguments is, paraphrasing "it sucks"

[esquire]

Originally Posted by elly63

First of all, find somewhere where I said I loved it. My original disappointment was in the comparison to Regina and Winnipeg, once over that I took a second look. All I'm saying is that it is not as bad as people say it is and I think the levels of venom applied to this project come from somewhere else. What would people say if that is what they got for 119 million and the two other stadiums weren't there to compare to?

The budget (which is in fact closer to $150 million) is part of the problem. Winnipeg is building a wonderful facility for $200 million. Instead of dumping all of that money into a second-rate stadium project, it would have made more sense to wait until there was extra $50 million available and build it right.

Hamilton would have been better off keeping IWS going for another few years until it got its act together and was in a position to build a proper stadium along the lines of what was in the initial renderings. As things stand, Hamilton and the senior levels of government are dumping tens of millions of dollars into a very small, super-basic stadium that the Ti-Cats will be saddled with for decades to come. I don't think it would be that bad of an idea to cancel the project outright and have the Ti-cats play in Guelph until a proper solution to this mess can be found.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

It's hard to know if the funding would be there later on down the line however.

You think the TiCats would stump up $200million for a new stadium?

Saying that -$50million would get an additional 9,500 seats.

[Prometheus]

Originally Posted by elly63

Ok, if you can tell so much from these drawings, what materials are being used on the exteriors? Designs, colours?

Are you for real?

No one is criticizing such superficial details as colour or type of material. We are discussing the fundamentals of the stadium's architecture. The renders make crystal clear that the stadium will be a bare-bones, utilitarian structure whose underbelly is left largely exposed to the outside world. It will be a structure without a façade of any enduring architectural substance or elegance. Whether the exposed beams and the few other exterior elements seen in the renders are to be concrete or steel, painted red or painted blue, made of precast plastic or something else, or papered-over with posters and chicken wire is totally irrelevant to this discussion.

If that is all you can get for the available budget (something I don't necessarily accept), then a creative way to raise more money should have been pursued. That Hamilton failed to do that does not change the fact it is about to build precisely the kind of old-fashioned, low-budget, rural-looking stadium that other CFL franchises are tearing down.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by elly63

Shakes head...and people are saying here Hamilton deserves better. If I thought that was the prevailing attitude, I'd say Hamilton deserves another 30 years of Ivor Wynne, problem is, it's flattened.

I don't get the whole issue everyone is having with the new stadium in Hamilton. This type of stadium is the perfect design and cost for a CFL stadium. When you factor in the economics of a CFL team, no team in the CFL could afford a stadium like the ones they are building in Winnipeg and Regina. Without massive public subsidies, neither of those two stadiums could be built. The new stadium in Winnipeg is georgous, but the cost of financing alone has to come to over $11 million per year. Would the Bombers ever generate enough profit off a new stadium to cover an additional $11+ million in expenses? The CFL is a small revenue league yet we are spending a fortune (almost all of it public tax dollars) on new stadiums that will never pay for themselves.

Hamilton's new stadium is still better than Calgary's, Toronto's, Montreal's and anything they were looking at building in Halifax. Is the new stadium as nice and expensive as the new ones in Winnipeg or Regina? Of course not. But maybe the citizens of Hamilton would rather spend their hard earned tax dollars on something other than another TajMahal football stadium. I think the stadium is going to look great and I can't wait to get down for a game.

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by Welkin

Hamilton's new stadium is still better than Calgary's, Toronto's, Montreal's and anything they were looking at building in Halifax. Is the new stadium as nice and expensive as the new ones in Winnipeg or Regina? Of course not. But maybe the citizens of Hamilton would rather spend their hard earned tax dollars on something other than another TajMahal football stadium. I think the stadium is going to look great and I can't wait to get down for a game.

If it's a comfortable place to watch football with good facilities for the team, I don't see why it's so scandalous that it doesn't have an architecturally marvellous facade. It's a football grandstand. If Hamilton has tens of millions of dollars lying around, as I very much doubt it does have, there are likely better things to spend them on than tarting up a football field.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

^Yeah, because Hamiltonians are simple creatures, after all. We don't want our 'hard-earned' tax dollars going towards making the city a more beautiful place. Heaven for f*cking fend if we wanted to showcase our city from an area that doesn't emphasize our rotting industry and depressed residential neighbourhoods. Us Hamilton folk should just be happy with what's been given to us and shut our holes cuz we'z po' 'n' stupid, innit?

We sure as hell wouldn't want this:

BBVA Compass Stadium, Houston
$95MM (2012)
capacity: 22,039
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/05/12/bbva-compass-stadium-opener-exceeds-expectations

Or this:

$126MM (2013 dollars)
capacity: 18,500
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPL_Park

Just give us sumpin' simple cuz that's the kinda folk we is. Tim Horton's. Steel Mills. Angelo Mosca. Hard workin', hard-hat-wearin' people.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by pete fist in ur face

^yeah, because hamiltonians are simple creatures, after all. We don't want our 'hard-earned' tax dollars going towards making the city a more beautiful place. Heaven for f*cking fend if we wanted to showcase our city from an area that doesn't emphasize our rotting industry and depressed residential neighbourhoods. Us hamilton folk should just be happy with what's been given to us and shut our holes cuz we'z po' 'n' stupid, innit?

Just give us sumpin' simple cuz that's the kinda folk we is. Tim horton's. Steel mills. Angelo mosca. Hard workin', hard-hat-wearin' people.

.

Originally Posted by pete fist in ur face

some people are bringing up the amenities this stadium will offer and, quite frankly, i couldn't care less. When i go to a football game i'm perfectly happy sitting on a bench, eating a hot dog and drinking a beer. That's what football is. I don't want proper seats. I don't want skyboxes. I don't want f*cking sushi. All i want is an authentic football experience in a well-designed stadium.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

^Oh stop it. You think you're awfully smart now, don't you? Well, I guess you win, genius, though you'll notice I said 'well-designed stadium.' And by that I meant something that will make Ti-Cat fans proud.

And, by the way, you're most definitely associated with this project in some capacity, are you not? You have an awful lot of insider info for somebody not closely involved with the ins and outs of this stadium.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by pEte fiSt iN Ur fAce

^Yeah, because Hamiltonians are simple creatures, after all. We don't want our 'hard-earned' tax dollars going towards making the city a more beautiful place. Heaven for f*cking fend if we wanted to showcase our city from an area that doesn't emphasize our rotting industry and depressed residential neighbourhoods. Us Hamilton folk should just be happy with what's been given to us and shut our holes cuz we'z po' 'n' stupid, innit?
We sure as hell wouldn't want this:

BBVA Compass Stadium, Houston
$95MM (2012)
capacity: 22,039
http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2012/05/12/bbva-compass-stadium-opener-exceeds-expectations

Or this:

$126MM (2013 dollars)
capacity: 18,500
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPL_Park

Just give us sumpin' simple cuz that's the kinda folk we is. Tim Horton's. Steel Mills. Angelo Mosca. Hard workin', hard-hat-wearin' people.

If you had wanted it, you would have paid for it. Regina is getting a palace because they are willing to pay higher taxes and fees to get a really great stadium for their football team. I did not read about the groundswell of citizens in Hamilton demanding that their taxes go up in order to get a first class facility.

In Regina they debated the cost of a new stadium for years, went through multiple design changes, and even held a mayoral election where the focus was on the new football stadium and during the whole debate it was made clear that they were willing to spend more of their tax dollars, pay higher user fees and pay more for Riders tickets in order to get a first class facility. I did not see this coming out of Hamilton. Hamilton got a great stadium for the price they were willing to pay. By the way, you cannot compare the cost of a stadium built in Hamiltion to the cost of BBVA Stadium in Houston. Unless you plan to import thousands of cheap Mexican laborers to build your stadium, you are not going to get one for that price.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

The budget (which is in fact closer to $150 million) is part of the problem.

119.1 million for design and construction

Originally Posted by esquire

Hamilton would have been better off keeping IWS going for another few years until it got its act together and was in a position to build a proper stadium along the lines of what was in the initial renderings. I don't think it would be that bad of an idea to cancel the project outright and have the Ti-cats play in Guelph until a proper solution to this mess can be found.

It was near its EOL, it didn't have another 5 years and they were being gifted a new stadium that people want to cancel.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Welkin

I don't get the whole issue everyone is having with the new stadium in Hamilton. This type of stadium is the perfect design and cost for a CFL stadium. When you factor in the economics of a CFL team, no team in the CFL could afford a stadium like the ones they are building in Winnipeg and Regina. Without massive public subsidies, neither of those two stadiums could be built. The new stadium in Winnipeg is georgous, but the cost of financing alone has to come to over $11 million per year. Would the Bombers ever generate enough profit off a new stadium to cover an additional $11+ million in expenses? The CFL is a small revenue league yet we are spending a fortune (almost all of it public tax dollars) on new stadiums that will never pay for themselves.

Hamilton's new stadium is still better than Calgary's, Toronto's, Montreal's and anything they were looking at building in Halifax. Is the new stadium as nice and expensive as the new ones in Winnipeg or Regina? Of course not. But maybe the citizens of Hamilton would rather spend their hard earned tax dollars on something other than another TajMahal football stadium. I think the stadium is going to look great and I can't wait to get down for a game.

Amen! Praise Allah!

[elly63]

Originally Posted by pEte fiSt iN Ur fAce

^Oh stop it. You think you're awfully smart now, don't you? Well, I guess you win, genius, though you'll notice I said 'well-designed stadium.' And by that I meant something that will make Ti-Cat fans proud.

And, by the way, you're most definitely associated with this project in some capacity, are you not? You have an awful lot of insider info for somebody not closely involved with the ins and outs of this stadium.

Man that was brilliant, you could see that coming a mile away, too bad ol Frankie beat me to it.

Trust me, if any of us had any real insider info we wouldn't be coming here opening ourselves up to be exposed on an Internet board. You can come up with all the conspiracies you want but they don't pass the common sense test. If you know how to research you can find all kinds of info floating around.

Oh man did you walk into that. Classic

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Welkin

If you had wanted it, you would have paid for it. Regina is getting a palace because they are willing to pay higher taxes and fees to get a really great stadium for their football team. I did not read about the groundswell of citizens in Hamilton demanding that their taxes go up in order to get a first class facility.

In Regina they debated the cost of a new stadium for years, went through multiple design changes, and even held a mayoral election where the focus was on the new football stadium and during the whole debate it was made clear that they were willing to spend more of their tax dollars, pay higher user fees and pay more for Riders tickets in order to get a first class facility. I did not see this coming out of Hamilton. Hamilton got a great stadium for the price they were willing to pay. By the way, you cannot compare the cost of a stadium built in Hamiltion to the cost of BBVA Stadium in Houston. Unless you plan to import thousands of cheap Mexican laborers to build your stadium, you are not going to get one for that price.

Finally, a voice of reason.

[elly63]

I notice that in most of the photos taken of IGF, that there are some serious shadows on the field. Watching a game on TV with shadows isn't so good and a hellish job for the video engineer riding the white and black levels. Wonder what will happen with this.