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  #2301  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 4:17 AM
Steveston Steveston is offline
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IMHO, Soldier Field is a masterpiece of stadium renovation. The cantilevered video boards, the rake of the triple-tiered east side, the bank of suites. It looks great because it looks so different from the cookie-cutter bowls in so many other US cities.

Had a look-see at the new Vikings Stadium? That's gorgeous!

http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/photo...3c6#8f96ecbb-edb1-4552-92cd-16d0e381d0d0
     
     
  #2302  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 1:09 PM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
And you guys were expecting Cowboys Stadium for $119 million? Well, I still haven't heard one "fact" about how this stadium is "second rate" or an "afterthought" Oops, sorry someone mentioned "chicken wire" what were you expecting, glass brick?

Just piling on for the sake of piling on, people gotta hate.

There is plenty of evidence of it being an afterthought, you say? Great then tell me, I wanna know.
People don't care that they only had 119m to work with - the stadium does look second rate. You may like it but most don't. Crappy stadium in a crappy part of the city. Luckily it's main use is only for the CFL, so it's not totally inappropriate.
     
     
  #2303  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 1:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Steveston View Post
Had a look-see at the new Vikings Stadium? That's gorgeous!

http://www.vikings.com/media-vault/photo...3c6#8f96ecbb-edb1-4552-92cd-16d0e381d0d0
Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but I think that design looks fugly.
     
     
  #2304  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 2:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
People don't care that they only had 119m to work with - the stadium does look second rate. You may like it but most don't. Crappy stadium in a crappy part of the city. Luckily it's main use is only for the CFL, so it's not totally inappropriate.
Considering the kind of stadium work that is being done around the rest of the league (Vancouver, Regina, Winnipeg, Ottawa), I think this particular project says more about Hamilton than it does about the CFL.
     
     
  #2305  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 2:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Berklon View Post
People don't care that they only had 119m to work with - the stadium does look second rate. You may like it but most don't. Crappy stadium in a crappy part of the city. Luckily it's main use is only for the CFL, so it's not totally inappropriate.
Another American wannabe?

How come nobody can tell me the reasons why it's "second rate and now crappy" It's like being with 12 year olds and the total extent of their criticism is... "it 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵". I thought people here had a little more intelligence than that, I guess I was wrong.
     
     
  #2306  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 2:10 PM
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Considering the kind of stadium work that is being done around the rest of the league (Vancouver, Regina, Winnipeg, Ottawa), I think this particular project says more about Hamilton than it does about the CFL.
All it says is that Infrastructure Ontario had 119 million to build a stadium. If Hamilton people had much input then why is their city council whining so much?
     
     
  #2307  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 2:13 PM
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I wouldn't say it is second rate and I'm sure it's going to be a nice place to watch every other team beat the Cats. The problem with this stadium is that it is boring. It has no interesting design features. It's completely utilitarian. That being said, they can always add something interesting in the future to 'spice' the structure up a bit. For CFL, it will be great. For Pan-Am, it will be embarrassing.

Not all will like the design but at least Omnilife Stadium in Mexico (2011 PanAm) is interesting:

from www.dimex1.com


     
     
  #2308  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 2:15 PM
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Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey View Post
I wouldn't say it is second rate and I'm sure it's going to be a nice place to watch every other team beat the Cats. The problem with this stadium is that it is boring. It has no interesting design features. It's completely utilitarian. That being said, they can always add something interesting in the future to 'spice' the structure up a bit. For CFL, it will be great. For Pan-Am, it will be embarrassing.
I guess that's what it boils down to. Good enough... for Hamilton.
     
     
  #2309  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 2:34 PM
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Originally Posted by O-Town Hockey View Post
I wouldn't say it is second rate and I'm sure it's going to be a nice place to watch every other team beat the Cats. The problem with this stadium is that it is boring. It has no interesting design features. It's completely utilitarian. That being said, they can always add something interesting in the future to 'spice' the structure up a bit. For CFL, it will be great. For Pan-Am, it will be embarrassing.

Not all will like the design but at least Omnilife Stadium in Mexico (2011 PanAm) is interesting
The Omnilife Stadium was a purpose built soccer stadium buil for Chivas - a bit different from a CFL stadium that is hosting soccer.

And anyways is soccer at the Pan-Am games really that big?
     
     
  #2310  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 2:39 PM
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Some people are bringing up the amenities this stadium will offer and, quite frankly, I couldn't care less. When I go to a football game I'm perfectly happy sitting on a bench, eating a hot dog and drinking a beer. That's what football is. I don't want proper seats. I don't want skyboxes. I don't want 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 sushi. All I want is an authentic football experience in a well-designed stadium. To me, that is why this stadium is a complete fail. And I'll be damned if I'm going to defend Infrastructure Ontario and Ontario Sports Solutions. Judging by the design, they invested very little time in this project. Shame!
     
     
  #2311  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 2:51 PM
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In hindsight, you have to wonder if Hamilton wouldn't have received more bang for the buck by following Ottawa's precedent and doing a partial rebuild/reno of the existing stadium. Demolishing and rebuilding the south side stands could have given IWS a much needed upgrade in terms of team facilities, revenue-generating amenities like club seats and skyboxes and fan comfort, and it could have also enabled the field to be set back from the sideline walls a bit more. The existing north stands could have just been renovated and perhaps replaced in another 10 years or whenever the time is right.

It's hard to build a decent stadium for $119 million. It's unfortunate that the money wasn't allocated to a partial replacement of IWS's facilities instead - they could have built one grandstand, but at least the budget would have been big enough to do it right.
     
     
  #2312  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 2:54 PM
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Originally Posted by pEte fiSt iN Ur fAce View Post
Some people are bringing up the amenities this stadium will offer and, quite frankly, I couldn't care less. When I go to a football game I'm perfectly happy sitting on a bench, eating a hot dog and drinking a beer. That's what football is. I don't want proper seats. I don't want skyboxes. I don't want 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 sushi. All I want is an authentic football experience in a well-designed stadium. To me, that is why this stadium is a complete fail. And I'll be damned if I'm going to defend Infrastructure Ontario and Ontario Sports Solutions. Judging by the design, they invested very little time in this project. Shame!
And you'll get it here - with improved sightlines compared to the old Ivor Wynne

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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
In hindsight, you have to wonder if Hamilton wouldn't have received more bang for the buck by following Ottawa's precedent and doing a partial rebuild/reno of the existing stadium. Demolishing and rebuilding the south side stands could have given IWS a much needed upgrade in terms of team facilities, revenue-generating amenities like club seats and skyboxes and fan comfort, and it could have also enabled the field to be set back from the sideline walls a bit more. The existing north stands could have just been renovated and perhaps replaced in another 10 years or whenever the time is right.
The north stands had 3 years life left in them before they needed to be demolished
     
     
  #2313  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 2:57 PM
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Originally Posted by pEte fiSt iN Ur fAce View Post
Some people are bringing up the amenities this stadium will offer and, quite frankly, I couldn't care less. When I go to a football game I'm perfectly happy sitting on a bench, eating a hot dog and drinking a beer. That's what football is. I don't want proper seats. I don't want skyboxes. All I want is an authentic football experience in a well-designed stadium.
At least you're giving some reasons why you don't like it, but it beggars the question if you don't care about the inside why do you care what it looks like outside? Doesn't make sense.

It's great you don't like skyboxes and things like box seats etc but it is those things that keep the team in business. Not everybody is a purist like yourself and with today's generation of finger flinging handheld device users, most of these people aren't purists, they want amenities like the WiFi that will be at the new stadium. Then they can finger fling to their heart's content.
     
     
  #2314  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 3:05 PM
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Originally Posted by esquire View Post
In hindsight, you have to wonder if Hamilton wouldn't have received more bang for the buck by following Ottawa's precedent and doing a partial rebuild/reno of the existing stadium. Demolishing and rebuilding the south side stands could have given IWS a much needed upgrade in terms of team facilities, revenue-generating amenities like club seats and skyboxes and fan comfort, and it could have also enabled the field to be set back from the sideline walls a bit more. The existing north stands could have just been renovated and perhaps replaced in another 10 years or whenever the time is right.

It's hard to build a decent stadium for $119 million. It's unfortunate that the money wasn't allocated to a partial replacement of IWS's facilities instead - they could have built one grandstand, but at least the budget would have been big enough to do it right.
Mitchell answers questions
Steve Milton Sep 01 2011 theSpec.com

At first blush, it all seems counterintuitive.

How can building new stands on the north side of Ivor Wynne Stadium not cost more than renovating the current ones?

And how can the significantly reduced seating capacity — from the original 25,000 seats to a reported 22,500 — not negatively impact the Hamilton Tiger-Cats’ bottom line?

Those were among the nagging questions after it was revealed last week that plans for the Pan Am Stadium on the current site of Ivor Wynne now call for the entire north stands to be torn down and rebuilt, instead of being refurbished atop the current infrastructure.

“This is absolutely and positively the most cost-efficient and responsible decision,” Ticat president Scott Mitchell answered Wednesday. “This isn’t a good thing, it’s a great thing.”

By agreeing to the reduced seat inventory, the Ticats made a major concession to Infrastructure Ontario to keep construction costs at the original estimate.

And, Mitchell says, potential builders will welcome the idea of constructing the north stands from the ground up, rather than trying to work around existing flaws, many of which are major.

“That’s 100 per cent accurate,” Mitchell said. “This creates cost certainty in the construction phase. You never know what you’re going to find out when you renovate. It might have involved all kinds of (capital) expense that wasn’t anticipated. And this prohibits the city from potentially having to spend tens of millions of dollars in maintenance of the north stands in the next few years.”

Additionally, having renovated north stands with uncomfortable bench seating and the same washroom and concession facilities as in the past would have meant that the Cats, and the city, were going to operate, in effect, two different facilities.

“What was clearly emerging was a have-versus-have-not scenario on the two sides of the stadium,” he said. “And that’s not conducive to effective cost management or a good in-stadium experience.”


The Tiger-Cats need to derive $10 million per year, or roughly $1 million per game, from ticket sales. Mitchell, bound by a confidentiality clause, would not comment on the exact capacity of the new stadium. But assuming the 22,500 figure is accurate, at an average $50 per ticket, the Cats will cover the $10 million as long as they sell out most games.

And a smaller stadium actually helps dramatically with that. Increasing the demand for tickets because there is a limited supply should translate into more season ticket holders than the current number, estimated to be slightly under 15,000. The Chicago Cubs and Boston Red Sox have always operated that way because of their old, small stadiums, but in 1990 the Baltimore Orioles became the first professional sports team to deliberately build a new stadium smaller than their old one. That forces fans to buy season’s tickets for fear that they won’t be able to get the tickets for games they really want. Then, weather and the competitive state of the team don’t affect sales as profoundly. The Montreal Alouettes had the same situation with the 20,000-seat Molson Stadium, and sold out every game for years.

The Ticats average between 23,000 and 24,000 spectators per game but about 20 per cent of them enjoy complimentary tickets, significantly lower than the figure from three years ago but still nearly double the industry standard. Tightening up on contra (tickets instead of cash, paid for services) and special group sales will allow the Cats to realize full income from a far greater percentage of the seats.

“So the biggest casualty in the capacity reduction will be those contra deals and big corporate buys,” Mitchell said.

The break-even point for most CFL teams is believed to be about $15 million in total annual income. With recent huge increases in TV viewership, broadcast revenues are expected to double or triple in the next couple of years, taking a big bite out of the $5 million income required beyond ticket sales. While the number of high-rent corporate boxes and club seats slated for the new stadium have not been revealed, there are going to be at least twice as many as there are now, adding more income potential to the Cats’ balance sheet.

“And clearly, we’ll have major increased revenue from concessions and merchandising because of an enhanced stadium experience,” Mitchell says. “It will also be a better experience for our corporate partners.”

The Ticats plan to cap individual season ticket sales at between 17,000 and 18,000. Season’s tickets prices for 2011 range from $14 per game in the end zone to $160 for the box seats at midfield. Those prices are expected to rise by two per cent next year.

But the team announced Wednesday that season’s tickets for 2012, the last season at Ivor Wynne, would cost the same as tickets for 2014, the first season in the new stadium.

“We wanted to nip in the bud all the talk that ‘I won’t be able to go to the new stadium because I can’t afford it,’” Mitchell explained.

Mitchell also said that the $1.3 million rent the Cats will pay the city in the new stadium will be the highest in the CFL and that the more income the club makes, the more the city will make on their rake-off of the profit, over and above the rental agreement.

And, he says, the seating capacity on opening day doesn’t have to remain that way. He wouldn’t comment directly, but the configuration of the new stadium has to include room for enough temporary seating to reach the 40,000 minimum required to play host to a Grey Cup Game.

“Infrastructure Ontario will deliver a great stadium, but obviously there’d be nothing stopping us, as far as far as post-Pan Am Games go, from adding more seating ourselves.”
     
     
  #2315  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 3:21 PM
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Originally Posted by elly63 View Post
“That’s 100 per cent accurate,” Mitchell said. “This creates cost certainty in the construction phase. You never know what you’re going to find out when you renovate. It might have involved all kinds of (capital) expense that wasn’t anticipated. And this prohibits the city from potentially having to spend tens of millions of dollars in maintenance of the north stands in the next few years.”

Additionally, having renovated north stands with uncomfortable bench seating and the same washroom and concession facilities as in the past would have meant that the Cats, and the city, were going to operate, in effect, two different facilities.

“What was clearly emerging was a have-versus-have-not scenario on the two sides of the stadium,” he said. “And that’s not conducive to effective cost management or a good in-stadium experience.”
-The north side stands could have been renovated too. Ottawa has completely gutted its existing north stands and it will presumably deliver a fan experience comparable to the new stands on the south side.

-The whole argument about avoiding have-versus-have-not fans is bogus when you consider that this dynamic already exists in every pro sports facility. Fans pay more for premium seating and get more in return. If for some reason the north side fan experience was markedly worse than that of the new south side stands, the tickets could have been priced accordingly.

-Maintenance on the north stands would still be cheaper than rebuilding and building new. I have never heard anything to suggest that the north stands, which is the newest part of IWS, are structurally unsound or otherwise dangerous.
     
     
  #2316  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 3:30 PM
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Considering the kind of stadium work that is being done around the rest of the league (Vancouver, Regina, Winnipeg, Ottawa), I think this particular project says more about Hamilton than it does about the CFL.
Agree 100%. No one was expecting something like Cowboys Stadium, but it's definitely a big step down from what other CFL cities are building.
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  #2317  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 3:32 PM
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I bet the average person would have a hard time telling which of these two is a professional football stadium and which one is for a high school team:

Pan-Am Stadium, Hamilton, ON - Capacity 22,500



Allen High School Stadium, Allen, TX - Capacity 18,000



I don't think anyone here is bashing Hamilton for the sake of bashing Hamilton. I myself want to see Hamilton, the Tiger-Cats, the CFL and Canadian sports in general prosper, and that's why I think building this facility as designed is a big mistake. It's pretty clear from the media reports posted earlier in this thread that even many in Hamilton think so as well. Hamilton can do a lot better than this.
Quite right. They could have at least built a U shaped lower tier or a bowl like Winnipeg did. Steel trusses on the outside instead of an actual exterior wall? Perhaps someone should introduce a construction material called a brick to these people. It's so bad I don't know where to begin. That Texas high school stadium is actually nicer in many respects.
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  #2318  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 3:33 PM
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  #2319  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 3:37 PM
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Agree 100%. No one was expecting something like Cowboys Stadium, but it's definitely a big step down from what other CFL cities are building.
The budget these guys had for the stadium is also a step down from what those other 4 cities are spending
     
     
  #2320  
Old Posted May 16, 2013, 3:44 PM
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It's so bad I don't know where to begin. That Texas high school stadium is actually nicer in many respects.
If there's that many problems it shouldn't be too hard to detail them. Also what are the many respects that the high school stadium is nicer? It's certainly not the inside.
     
     
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