YEG - Edmonton Int Airport

[Rocket252]

Originally Posted by LO 044

What does it say about WestJet's assertion that there is not enough traffic to warrant a flight? Sure seems like United has no problems running these routes with decent loads.

See, it works both ways.

Westjet is no angel either and could do much better.

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by hilman

Same old story from you too, always gotta stand up for AC. How was their last quarter by the way? Oh ya, they lost a ton of money and have almost $4 billion in debt. Shouldn't be too long until they come running for another public handout, meanwhile WJ has had 30+ quarters in a row of profitability. But don't let facts get in your way

At least WJ offers us some routes that actually leave the country with 10+ international routes among numerous Canadian routes that AC can't seem to provide. Yes AC, I want to fly through Vancouver to get to Kelowna

For the record, I am not just a WJ fan but a fan of any company that supports YEG and gives us non stop routes that a thriving city of 1.2+ million people deserve (so I guess I'm a fan of everyone but AC lol).

So if you fly to London or Europe, will you use AC? They are providing a non-stop scheduled flight that no other airline provides YEG and support Edmonton passengers flying to Europe and beyond.

In case i make a mistake, please provide me with the 10+ sun/leisure err i mean international destinations. I believe Los Angeles is the closest thing you can call a viable connecting airport and that would be to South America only. And also explain to me why WestJet does not go head to head with any other airline on any other routes to the US including Seattle, Denver, Chicago, Minneapolis, Houston, Seattle and Newark. As Rocket252 has mentioned, these routes are obviously viable so why doesn't WestJet jump in. If their product is that much better then there should be no issue. They could run Delta, United and Horizon out of YEG and have a monopoly on those routes as well.

There is no question on how both airlines started. They are radically different in that way. WestJet knows what not to do in some areas because they see the mistakes AC has made like having no unions or having no requirements for flight attendants to speak French or have no federally mandated requirements to keep maintenance facilities in certain parts of the countries. Those are also the facts as well.

The future direction for both airlines, however, is the same. Different aircraft with varying pricing and a hub and spoke model with connections through other airlines.

[tuffyy]

Pretty much agreed.

Do you think there is no more room for more fligs from YEG to LAX as a example?

There is plenty of room for another airline. WestJets flight to LAX is pretty much a O/D route since it has no real alliance to connect with anyone at LAX. Now imagine a airline with a hub at LAX? You would have O/D and connections...

[EdmTrekker]

ok Tuffy but I am too old to now learn how to behave

[dansk]

Originally Posted by tuffyy

Pretty much agreed.

Do you think there is no more room for more fligs from YEG to LAX as a example?

There is plenty of room for another airline. WestJets flight to LAX is pretty much a O/D route since it has no real alliance to connect with anyone at LAX. Now imagine a airline with a hub at LAX? You would have O/D and connections...

That is actually one of there true codeshare options from YEG connecting us with AA options.

[tuffyy]

As true is that is the American "hub" at LAX is not a strong one compared to DFW or JFK as examples. LAX is obviously AA's Asian, Hawaii, a few others gateway.

United has a strong LAX hub even larger than AA. United also offers YVR-LAX service. My point being there are stronger connections that can be made from LAX via UAL.

[hilman]

Originally Posted by LO 044

So if you fly to London or Europe, will you use AC? They are providing a non-stop scheduled flight that no other airline provides YEG and support Edmonton passengers flying to Europe and beyond.

In case i make a mistake, please provide me with the 10+ sun/leisure err i mean international destinations. I believe Los Angeles is the closest thing you can call a viable connecting airport and that would be to South America only. And also explain to me why WestJet does not go head to head with any other airline on any other routes to the US including Seattle, Denver, Chicago, Minneapolis, Houston, Seattle and Newark. As Rocket252 has mentioned, these routes are obviously viable so why doesn't WestJet jump in. If their product is that much better then there should be no issue. They could run Delta, United and Horizon out of YEG and have a monopoly on those routes as well.

There is no question on how both airlines started. They are radically different in that way. WestJet knows what not to do in some areas because they see the mistakes AC has made like having no unions or having no requirements for flight attendants to speak French or have no federally mandated requirements to keep maintenance facilities in certain parts of the countries. Those are also the facts as well.

The future direction for both airlines, however, is the same. Different aircraft with varying pricing and a hub and spoke model with connections through other airlines.

I would use AC to LHR to support YEG but with only 4-7 flights a week, it can fill up pretty fast and the prices can be quite high. If that's not an option, I would use ORD or EWR to support YEG's transborder numbers, flying through YYC or YYZ doesn't help us in any way.

Off the top of my head, Westjet flies nonstop to Los Angeles, Vegas, Palm Springs, Phoenix, Orlando, Maui, Cancun, Cabo, Mazatlan, Puerto Vallarta. Some of these routes are huge for YEG, you are telling me AC couldn't have done flights to Cancun or Hawaii? Hawaii is a massive market for YEG and Westjet just started flying there, why didn't AC do this route? Or LAX, LAS, CUN, or any other sun destination.

And by the way, Westjet does compete on a route to the US, PHX is also flown by US Airways. I could see them compete with Horizon on the SEA route when the Q400's are online.

If you look at the service AC provides us, its like they aren't even trying. Why you stand up for them is baffling, you or someone you know must work for them

[Rocket252]

^ Agreed.

I just don't see Air Canada making an effort in our market.

[tuffyy]

Originally Posted by hilman

I would use AC to LHR to support YEG but with only 4-7 flights a week, it can fill up pretty fast and the prices can be quite high. If that's not an option, I would use ORD or EWR to support YEG's transborder numbers, flying through YYC or YYZ doesn't help us in any way.

Off the top of my head, Westjet flies nonstop to Los Angeles, Vegas, Palm Springs, Phoenix, Orlando, Maui, Cancun, Cabo, Mazatlan, Puerto Vallarta. Some of these routes are huge for YEG, you are telling me AC couldn't have done flights to Cancun or Hawaii? Hawaii is a massive market for YEG and Westjet just started flying there, why didn't AC do this route? Or LAX, LAS, CUN, or any other sun destination.

And by the way, Westjet does compete on a route to the US, PHX is also flown by US Airways. I could see them compete with Horizon on the SEA route when the Q400's are online.

If you look at the service AC provides us, its like they aren't even trying. Why you stand up for them is baffling, you or someone you know must work for them

You want proof that AC is using YEG as a spoke all one has to do is look at some of the routes from YYC... Some easy ones are Puerto Vallarta. Air Transat, SunWing and WestJet all service the route mainly in the winter months from YEG but also a few year round flights from YEG. obviously demand is high for the route... AC? Connect in Calgary. AC is very clear in sticking to its YYC hub when it comes to YEG its just the airlines business strategy and one followed by many in the industry worldwide.

So many people seem to think YEG must be a poor market as a result of not having some of the links YYC has, thats not the case... We just dont fall into the hub catergory and dont have many of these flights as a direct result of that.

[dansk]

Correct Tuffy. People continue to hate hearing that we are a spoke, but its not going to change until something happens forcing Air Canada and WestJet to some degree to realize it.

[Rocket252]

Originally Posted by dansk

Correct Tuffy. People continue to hate hearing that we are a spoke, but its not going to change until something happens forcing Air Canada and WestJet to some degree to realize it.

So would AC loosen their current structure to possibly have a better financial bottom line?

After all money is a great motivator for change

[hilman]

Originally Posted by Rocket252

So would AC loosen their current structure to possibly have a better financial bottom line?

After all money is a great motivator for change

Exactly, if you look at their financials, their current methodology is clearly not working. They cannot continue doing what their doing and expect to make a profit, AC reminds me of the saying "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

[hilman]

https://twitter.com/FlyEIA/status/327455708121550849/photo/1

[dansk]

Originally Posted by Rocket252

So would AC loosen their current structure to possibly have a better financial bottom line?

After all money is a great motivator for change

Yes. But realistically what would it take for Air Canada to change how it operates? Hypothetically, lets say a 3rd Airline enters the Canadian market and hubs through YEG instead of Calgary. Even then do you see Air Canada focusing more on YEG? I doubt it. If anything they are going to strengthen their hub in Calgary by offering good connections and pricing through Air Canada to compete.

If you haven't had a chance go through EIA's SWOT Analysis provided here: http://corporate.flyeia.com/media/354738/2010-2014%20strategic%20plan%20abridged.pdf


Strengths:
Customer Service (all airports have this)
Financials (nice for development and incentives)
Employees (nice, but I would say Calgary and Vancouver have more experience employees available in this industry)
Location (Strong point, but hard to sell since Calgary is not much further away)
Land: For Cargo this is huge
I would add: Immediate room for growth with new terminal..but this is a short window.
Sorry but YEG's strengths are good but nothing their is going to change what we have today.

Top Weakness:
Established Passenger/Cargo Transportation Plans
Traditional Airport Mindset and Processes

In short... if you were the Airport how would you convince AC or WS to leave their hub of Calgary? Not a easy sell.

In the future how would you convince Porter or another 3rd carrier to hub here outside of Calgary or Vancouver?

Look at it from a business stand point.

I think EIA has done a fairly good job in the current environment. I personally feel that going forward it is even more crucial for EIA today to be looking for a CEO/President that is going to push to bring EIA to the next step. It is not a easy task. YEG is not going to become a HUB with the current two players. However things in Aviation do change over time, and so do economies.

Again if you were the new CEO how would you change what EIA is doing today, how would you position EIA. How would change the industries view on YEG?

[tuffyy]

Anyone remember JetsGo?

They were the last airline in my time at YEG that planned a hub in Edmonton. They actually started setting things up. Things got rolling then they ran into financial problems and folded before they could fully boost the "YEG plan"

The plan at the time was to look like this.

*YEG-YYZ 4xdaily MD-83
*YEG-YMM 2xdaily Fokker 100
*YEG-YVR 3xdaily MD-83
*YEG-YZF 1xdaily Fokker 100
*YEG-LAS 2xweekly MD-83
*YEG-LAX 1xdaily MD-83

Saskatoon and Regina where also to be linked with Fokkers aswell but things went south before they could establish the YEG "hub".

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by hilman

I would use AC to LHR to support YEG but with only 4-7 flights a week, it can fill up pretty fast and the prices can be quite high. If that's not an option, I would use ORD or EWR to support YEG's transborder numbers, flying through YYC or YYZ doesn't help us in any way.

Off the top of my head, Westjet flies nonstop to Los Angeles, Vegas, Palm Springs, Phoenix, Orlando, Maui, Cancun, Cabo, Mazatlan, Puerto Vallarta. Some of these routes are huge for YEG, you are telling me AC couldn't have done flights to Cancun or Hawaii? Hawaii is a massive market for YEG and Westjet just started flying there, why didn't AC do this route? Or LAX, LAS, CUN, or any other sun destination.

And by the way, Westjet does compete on a route to the US, PHX is also flown by US Airways. I could see them compete with Horizon on the SEA route when the Q400's are online.

If you look at the service AC provides us, its like they aren't even trying. Why you stand up for them is baffling, you or someone you know must work for them

I honestly think Air Canada changing their hub and spoke model is a pipe dream. I see their main obstacle as union wages and some old school conditions they must follow. Isn't the whole Aveos fiasco a way of getting out of servicing aircraft in Montreal and i think Winnipeg? Think about that for a second, WestJet has none of these issues and concentrates their headquarters, fleet maintenance and training at YYC.

This is a good article about WestJet's cost advantage shrinking but by no means am i saying disapperaing.
http://business.financialpost.com/2012/1...osts-as-cushion-over-air-canada-shrinks/

Another obstacle would be varied aircraft which complicates training, maintenance and pilot seniority pay. Saying that, i think it is very difficult to run an international airline with a couple of types of aircraft. I dunno, maybe AC should stick to a couple of type of aircraft but which ones. As soon as you have one type of Boeing, you can pretty much fly any Boeing. Same with Airbus, Embraer, Bombardier etc. I really don't understand why they keep the six Airbus 330's around. Obviously they've done the math and it fits nicely between a 767 and 777 but to keep just six of those planes around baffles me. This is a tough comparison to make until WS buys/leases long-range aircraft. It is easy to wet-lease a crappy 757 with no credible IFE and legroom for flights to Hawaii. If someone complains, well than its not really their aircraft. Try putting that same 757 to LHR and we will see how many people bite assuming the prices are the same.

I think the only way AC will change is if it disappears and a new airline is formed without any of the baggage that AC has. Hilman, I don't know when i have ever stood up for AC, i don't work for them nor do i know anybody that does. I think purchasing their stock is pure insanity.

What i constantly say over and over is that WestJet is slowly getting closer and closer to what AC is. Do they make a profit? Sure. Is it better to buy WS stock rather than AC? Of course. Are their prices or service any better than AC's, not really. Case in point i had mentioned flying to Orlando recently. I tried to make the one non-stop weekly flight on WestJet work but the price was around 33%. Roughly $450 roundtrip on any other airline with one connection as opposed to $650 roundtrip on WestJet and i did try to book this early. You also must admit that their IFE switch to tablets isn't going to well.

WS is getting more and more to be a hub and spoke airline with hubs in YYC and YYZ. WS didn't initiate YEG-SEA or YEG-ORD or YEG-IAH but they did initiate YYZ-LGA and YYC-DFW to connect to AA. There is nothing wrong with their plan financially but the route network is starting to resemble AC with feeder routes to hubs.

When people talked about the YEG-YYC run they say WS is better since they fly the 737 rather than the props and it is more comfortable, roomy etc. As soon as WS orders the Q400, they place it on YEG-YYC. Again, this is now a level playing field with AC.

It is interesting you mention the LHR flight and the cost structure. Every single airline does the same thing. I tried to book Hawaii flights last year but unless you book early, the 757 non-stop flights become way more expensive than connecting through YVR on WS.

One thing i do hope is that WS goes for the 787 or 350 because flying the 757 overseas is not my idea of fun. I don't know how Canada 3000 got away with it but then again i guess they didn't.

[hilman]

I agree with most of what you say, AC isn't going to change their business plan without a huge fight from the unions. Unfortunately, the direction they are heading isn't going to keep them aloft for very long (pun intended).

I think we are mostly on the same page but differ slightly on how well (or poor) we see them serving YEG.

[tuffyy]

Coming to YEG in 2014?

From what I'm hearing a very good chance.

http://youtu.be/w39ANQ70t_s

Footage from YEG.

Courtesy of fenderfan.

[Rocket252]

Beautiful Plane - Nice Landing.

Lets hope we see more of them in 2014.

[dansk]

Originally Posted by Rocket252

Beautiful Plane - Nice Landing.

Lets hope we see more of them in 2014.

Don't know why but the 757 is one of my favourites. Perfect sized plane for a new European route from Edmonton.