Urban vs Suburban - 2 styles enter, one style leaves!

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

You could write pretty much the same article about the entertainment district in any large city in the western hemisphere.

A straightforward observation, but demanding perhaps a pinch more thought. What you've suggested is a link between hyper-urbanization and the phenomenon that was articulated in the article, namely a situation where the benefits of concentrations break from the standard benefits of scale at a certain point and break-down.

I had previously posted a question about what the best size of a city is and/or what the ideal density for a city is. On one extreme is rural context and on the other is the unruly reality that was Kowloon Walled City. Irrespective of my handle, in the grand scheme of things, I'm an urbanite (yeah - really), so I don't want my comments here to be taken the wrong way and instead of discussion getting into bashing. The discussion is important because it can even effect how we should grow our own "small" city, as the seeds planted today will result in the jungle of tomorrow. I've always been one to support a multi-nodal model where we do have a central vibrant and dense downtown, but also multiple nodes around the city formed around TOD's. I really do believe that, while the current core can still densify and pull in more, that there should be a limit, as the strains of intensification will cause infrastructure to crumble (literally and figuratively). This includes pipes as well as public transport systems. If downtown had 1,000,000 people working and 400,000 living instead of 150,000 working and 50,000 living, that would result in many negatives, and beyond even the stresses mentioned in the prior statement, it would also result in the challenges of this article, and perhaps more-so than described therein.

[kw5150]

I blame jersey shore and spoiled suburban kids.

[Policy Wonk]

I don't really see this as a density issue, the problem is a certain type of drinking establishment catering to a certain clientele. Part of it is the lower drinking age here thrusts ones most profligate stage of drinking out of basements and into bars, but ultimately If you have any tangible number of people in one place who think chugging a $30 bottle of vodka is living the fast and fabulous life, you're going to have a mess to clean up every morning.

Originally Posted by suburbia

A straightforward observation, but demanding perhaps a pinch more thought. What you've suggested is a link between hyper-urbanization and the phenomenon that was articulated in the article, namely a situation where the benefits of concentrations break from the standard benefits of scale at a certain point and break-down.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

I don't really see this as a density issue, the problem is a certain type of drinking establishment catering to a certain clientele. Part of it is the lower drinking age here thrusts ones most profligate stage of drinking out of basements and into bars, but ultimately If you have any tangible number of people in one place who think chugging a $30 bottle of vodka is living the fast and fabulous life, you're going to have a mess to clean up every morning.

I would agree. Also, this is much of a cultural issue. Compare English drinking culture to Spanish. In Spain you can drink on the street. Bars are open until 7:00 in the morning (in Argentina, some bars don't open until 7:00 in the morning). Drinks are incredibly strong as well. Yet, the problems associated with drinking are barely noticeable.

In England, bars all close at midnight (AFAIK). Which creates an incentive to pound as many drinks as possible Thousands of drunken English hooligans are loosed on the street all at once.

I read an article in the economist once comparing the average number of drinks in a sitting and the number of times one drinks during the week among different European nations. Countries such as Norway, Sweden and Germany did not drink often during the week, but they would have "binge" periods every so often (8 drinks or more I believe), perhaps once every two weeks. French, Italians and Spanish would drink nearly every day, but would rarely exceed 2 drinks. The Brits, however, would drink nearly every day, and would binge almost every single time they drank.

[Ramsayfarian]

The Streets has an awesome song about the drinking culture in England. Whilst a pro pot song, he makes some valid points.

• Video Link

[Policy Wonk]

I'm not sure the blowout drinking phase really reflects any prevailing culture. But if you're still puking on the sidewalk on a regular basis past the age of say 22... You're probably well on the road to alcoholism.

Where this busts out here the problem isn't bars or drinking culture in general, the problem is assholes and the establishments that cater to them. This is compounded that most of society takes a "boys will be boys" attitude, until they're demanding tear gas.

Originally Posted by fusili

I would agree. Also, this is much of a cultural issue. Compare English drinking culture to Spanish. In Spain you can drink on the street. Bars are open until 7:00 in the morning (in Argentina, some bars don't open until 7:00 in the morning). Drinks are incredibly strong as well. Yet, the problems associated with drinking are barely noticeable.

In England, bars all close at midnight (AFAIK). Which creates an incentive to pound as many drinks as possible Thousands of drunken English hooligans are loosed on the street all at once.

I read an article in the economist once comparing the average number of drinks in a sitting and the number of times one drinks during the week among different European nations. Countries such as Norway, Sweden and Germany did not drink often during the week, but they would have "binge" periods every so often (8 drinks or more I believe), perhaps once every two weeks. French, Italians and Spanish would drink nearly every day, but would rarely exceed 2 drinks. The Brits, however, would drink nearly every day, and would binge almost every single time they drank.

[Riise]

Originally Posted by fusili

In England, bars all close at midnight (AFAIK). Which creates an incentive to pound as many drinks as possible Thousands of drunken English hooligans are loosed on the street all at once.

The midnight closing only applies to pubs and even they can apply for a late liscence. The issue in the U.K. is probably the fact that major social issues are occuring in a country that has a drinking culture.

[floobie]

Originally Posted by fusili

I would agree. Also, this is much of a cultural issue. Compare English drinking culture to Spanish. In Spain you can drink on the street. Bars are open until 7:00 in the morning (in Argentina, some bars don't open until 7:00 in the morning). Drinks are incredibly strong as well. Yet, the problems associated with drinking are barely noticeable.

In England, bars all close at midnight (AFAIK). Which creates an incentive to pound as many drinks as possible Thousands of drunken English hooligans are loosed on the street all at once.

I read an article in the economist once comparing the average number of drinks in a sitting and the number of times one drinks during the week among different European nations. Countries such as Norway, Sweden and Germany did not drink often during the week, but they would have "binge" periods every so often (8 drinks or more I believe), perhaps once every two weeks. French, Italians and Spanish would drink nearly every day, but would rarely exceed 2 drinks. The Brits, however, would drink nearly every day, and would binge almost every single time they drank.

I've even noticed this among my many German relatives around my age. The drinking age for beer and wine there is 16, and basically none of them actually gave a damn about alcohol. Here, even at 18 or 19, it's built up so much in our heads as some amazing elixir of maturity and pleasure, that we go completely overboard and often define our very value as a person by how drunk we can get.

In cultures where alcohol is introduced fairly early on, just as something you have with dinner or something, I can absolutely see binge drinking and such being much less of an issue.

[Calgarian]

Concentrating bars together (especially night clubs) creates problems. If you did it in the suburbs or the industrial park you would have the same issue, so what's the point of posting that here?

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

Concentrating bars together (especially night clubs) creates problems. If you did it in the suburbs or the industrial park you would have the same issue, so what's the point of posting that here?

The key word in your statement is "if". Fact is, it is not done in the burbs, and thus is a differentiator.

If you did this, that and the other thing in the suburbs, it would be the same as inner city, and if that was an argument against discussing specific items on this thread, nothing could be discussed here.

This challenge is clearly an inner city one. In Vancouver and virtually anywhere else that it exists. We're not discussing hypotheticals, we're discussing reality.

[kw5150]

Oh no!!! Young people having fun on a great street!

Who fucking cares. The street will evolve.

[kw5150]

Sound the alarms!!! Its Toronto density!!!! OMG, Im scared just looking at this pic!!

Originally Posted by MonkeyRonin

https://twitter.com/SkyJacked793

[fusili]

Originally Posted by suburbia

The key word in your statement is "if". Fact is, it is not done in the burbs, and thus is a differentiator.

If you did this, that and the other thing in the suburbs, it would be the same as inner city, and if that was an argument against discussing specific items on this thread, nothing could be discussed here.

This challenge is clearly an inner city one. In Vancouver and virtually anywhere else that it exists. We're not discussing hypotheticals, we're discussing reality.

What about Back Alley, Ranchmans, various Shank's locations etc?

I remember going to the neighbourhood bar in high school and the problems there were no different than other locations. I remember someone getting bottled outside a Shanks in Crowfoot. That isn't exactly inner city.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by fusili

What about Back Alley, Ranchmans, various Shank's locations etc?

I remember going to the neighbourhood bar in high school and the problems there were no different than other locations. I remember someone getting bottled outside a Shanks in Crowfoot. That isn't exactly inner city.

That's pretty much exactly what I was going to post, thank you.

[kw5150]

Plus, you should see how many impaired drivers head home to the suburbs after the bar just to save money!!

So aweful!!

FYI....Im just trying to sound just as ludicrous as Suburbia with most of my posts by the way. Sarcasm doesnt go very far on the internet.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Calgarian

That's pretty much exactly what I was going to post, thank you.

In fact, suburban neighbourhood bars can be a lot worse, depending on the lifecycle of the neighbourhood. There is a point where the youth get to be just drinking age, and they start to go out to the neighbourhood bars. Because those bars rarely get any business, they tend to turn a blind eye to fake IDs, etc. As well, because they are so scattered, they are difficult to police. The recipe of young, non-university aged drinkers, high school drama spilling over into the bar, bars needing customers and little police surveillance, leads to a lot of problems.

[kw5150]

Preaching inner city hate here does not work here. You might need a new audience.

Originally Posted by suburbia

The key word in your statement is "if". Fact is, it is not done in the burbs, and thus is a differentiator.

If you did this, that and the other thing in the suburbs, it would be the same as inner city, and if that was an argument against discussing specific items on this thread, nothing could be discussed here.

This challenge is clearly an inner city one. In Vancouver and virtually anywhere else that it exists. We're not discussing hypotheticals, we're discussing reality.

[suburbia]

Originally Posted by fusili

What about Back Alley, Ranchmans, various Shank's locations etc?

I remember going to the neighbourhood bar in high school and the problems there were no different than other locations. I remember someone getting bottled outside a Shanks in Crowfoot. That isn't exactly inner city.

Mountains out of mole hills. What you're talking about doesn't hold a candle to the Vancouver conundrums. Did you even read the article? Might be important before arguing against it.

[Calgarian]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Mountains out of mole hills. What you're talking about doesn't hold a candle to the Vancouver conundrums. Did you even read the article? Might be important before arguing against it.

The argument is that alcohol and our drinking culture are to blame, did you read the article?

Aside from the mistake Vancouver made of allowing a lot of bars in a very small stretch downtown, this has absolutely nothing to do with the point of this page. How about I post a bunch of articles of suburban house parties gone wild and use it to point out how bad the burbs are? it would make about as much sense as what you are saying.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by suburbia

Mountains out of mole hills. What you're talking about doesn't hold a candle to the Vancouver conundrums. Did you even read the article? Might be important before arguing against it.

Originally Posted by Calgarian

The argument is that alcohol and our drinking culture are to blame, did you read the article?

Aside from the mistake Vancouver made of allowing a lot of bars in a very small stretch downtown, this has absolutely nothing to do with the point of this page. How about I post a bunch of articles of suburban house parties gone wild and use it to point out how bad the burbs are? it would make about as much sense as what you are saying.

Exactly. This is just straight up trolling. Do we post articles about grow-ops? Or B&Es in the burbs?