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  #4101  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2011, 1:05 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
BRT is good in some areas, but not others. IMO it is best for suburban corridors that do not go downtown to provide enhanced service at lower cost in bus lanes and dedicated signals. Enhancements on major routes outside the downtown, such as Route 118, would be good for BRT.
The 12, dammit, the 12!

The NE quadrant of the city gets the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 end of the transit stick. The first time the city has any money to put into non-dedicated-corridor transit priority street stuff, it has to be the Rideau-Montreal corridor, unless they are going to finally bite the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 bullet and re-start the LRT study.
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  #4102  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2011, 2:08 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
The 12, dammit, the 12!

The NE quadrant of the city gets the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 end of the transit stick. The first time the city has any money to put into non-dedicated-corridor transit priority street stuff, it has to be the Rideau-Montreal corridor, unless they are going to finally bite the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 bullet and re-start the LRT study.
Don't get your hopes up. That corridor was taken off the table when we trashed the Chiarelli transit plan. The only way we can justify the tunnel is to force everybody to use it no matter how inconvenient it is. This is a matter of efficiency, not service quality. We cannot have competing LRT on Montreal Road. It may take some passengers away from the tunnel.
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  #4103  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2011, 2:21 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by m0nkyman View Post
I was against the Transitway being BRT when it was first built. It has been a mistake waiting to be corrected for almost thirty years. Haydon was wrong then, and he's wrong now.

Edmonton did it right the first time, and in fifteen years, it will be seen that their early investment in a tunnel was the right decision, even though it didn't pay immediate dividends. Calgary and Ottawa are having to redo their central transit systems, while Edmonton is able to focus on expanding.
You have to be kidding. Edmonton has lower ridership than Calgary or Ottawa. Their original tunnel investment was a miserable failure since the short LRT route did not reach enough people. They built LRT and the tunnel for the wrong reasons. They built it for the Commonwealth Games and didn't consider how useful it would be afterwards. As a result, LRT ridership was particularly disappointing and it delayed expansion for a generation. Furthermore, the tunnel location is going to limit future LRT growth. The city is now planning a surface route through downtown to accomodate an eventual east-west route.

If we follow Edmonton's example with similar results, Phase 2 will not be built until 2050. There are far better success stories with transit tunnels than Edmonton.
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  #4104  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2011, 2:54 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
Don't get your hopes up. That corridor was taken off the table when we trashed the Chiarelli transit plan. The only way we can justify the tunnel is to force everybody to use it no matter how inconvenient it is. This is a matter of efficiency, not service quality. We cannot have competing LRT on Montreal Road. It may take some passengers away from the tunnel.
Actually, it could quite easily put more passengers through it.
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  #4105  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2011, 3:00 AM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
The 12, dammit, the 12!

The NE quadrant of the city gets the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 end of the transit stick. The first time the city has any money to put into non-dedicated-corridor transit priority street stuff, it has to be the Rideau-Montreal corridor, unless they are going to finally bite the 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 bullet and re-start the LRT study.
I meant outside of downtown (i.e. crosstown corridors). It would be VERY difficult to increase capacity through bus means alone on that corridor through a heavily developed part of the city - a surface tram or subway would be needed there. Same on other busy in-town routes like the 1, 2 and 85.
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  #4106  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2011, 3:19 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
I meant outside of downtown (i.e. crosstown corridors). It would be VERY difficult to increase capacity through bus means alone on that corridor through a heavily developed part of the city - a surface tram or subway would be needed there. Same on other busy in-town routes like the 1, 2 and 85.
Exactly!

Well, some of the burden of what would otherwise be the 2 is relieved to the north by the Transitway... and it's funny that the frequency of the 2 survived the last couple of years even as the 12 got slashed by 17%.

I'd think pretty much from Rideau Centre east to almost Notre-Dame Cemetery would have to be underground. Expensive? Yip. But it could be paid for with big, truly TOD redevelopment around the stations on Montreal Road, if the NIMBIES could be held at bay.
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  #4107  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2011, 3:37 AM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Originally Posted by Uhuniau View Post
Exactly!

Well, some of the burden of what would otherwise be the 2 is relieved to the north by the Transitway... and it's funny that the frequency of the 2 survived the last couple of years even as the 12 got slashed by 17%.

I'd think pretty much from Rideau Centre east to almost Notre-Dame Cemetery would have to be underground. Expensive? Yip. But it could be paid for with big, truly TOD redevelopment around the stations on Montreal Road, if the NIMBIES could be held at bay.
Even if an LRT link existed on that corridor, local service would still need to be provided on the 12 (not as often though, like every 15-30 minutes). Agreed it would be very expensive if anything more than a surface tram were to be built (that would merely be the 12 shifted to rails).
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  #4108  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2011, 4:28 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Originally Posted by eternallyme View Post
Even if an LRT link existed on that corridor, local service would still need to be provided on the 12 (not as often though, like every 15-30 minutes). Agreed it would be very expensive if anything more than a surface tram were to be built (that would merely be the 12 shifted to rails).
I don't think you can get away with less than 15, although OC Transpo thinks it can already get away with that half the time. So much for the theory that splitting routes improves reliability and schedule adherence.
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  #4109  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2011, 1:58 PM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
....

If we follow Edmonton's example with similar results, Phase 2 will not be built until 2050. There are far better success stories with transit tunnels than Edmonton.
And since we will be paying for the conversion (Phase 1) for 38 years, what makes you think there is any chance that we would have any money to do anything before 2050 any way? Remember, that is 38 years just for the initial capital costs; there will need to be big expenditures to keep the line running as well. For example, the LRVs should last 30 years, but (like the O-Trains) will likely need expensive rebuilds every ten years; and of course, 30 years is shorter than 38 years so they will need to be replaced before we have finished paying for them. (In the case of the O-Trains, we are simply replacing them at 10 years instead of rebuilding them. We just got rid of our 1997/8 buses too, but they cost a lot less to replace.) Would anyone buy a car that they would need to be paying for long after they had taken on more debt buying its replacement?

I am worried about the financing. The City Treasurer said that the modeling only showed the TRANSIT debt and that she had no idea as to what the City's total debt would be due to other departments. It is interesting to note that the number of water main breaks this year is up over last year, and that both Kanata and Orleans are also fed by a single large water main each. Take a look at how the City has needed to totally rebuild streets to replace the 100-year old infrastructure underneath; more and more of that is bound to happen within the next 38 years.

Already, this transit project is pushing the debt servicing cost above the limit that the City had set for itself. It is not above the Provincial limit, but the graphs don't show any other projected debt because only the Transit budget was modeled.
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  #4110  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2011, 3:08 PM
reidjr reidjr is offline
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
And since we will be paying for the conversion (Phase 1) for 38 years, what makes you think there is any chance that we would have any money to do anything before 2050 any way? Remember, that is 38 years just for the initial capital costs; there will need to be big expenditures to keep the line running as well. For example, the LRVs should last 30 years, but (like the O-Trains) will likely need expensive rebuilds every ten years; and of course, 30 years is shorter than 38 years so they will need to be replaced before we have finished paying for them. (In the case of the O-Trains, we are simply replacing them at 10 years instead of rebuilding them. We just got rid of our 1997/8 buses too, but they cost a lot less to replace.) Would anyone buy a car that they would need to be paying for long after they had taken on more debt buying its replacement?

I am worried about the financing. The City Treasurer said that the modeling only showed the TRANSIT debt and that she had no idea as to what the City's total debt would be due to other departments. It is interesting to note that the number of water main breaks this year is up over last year, and that both Kanata and Orleans are also fed by a single large water main each. Take a look at how the City has needed to totally rebuild streets to replace the 100-year old infrastructure underneath; more and more of that is bound to happen within the next 38 years.

Already, this transit project is pushing the debt servicing cost above the limit that the City had set for itself. It is not above the Provincial limit, but the graphs don't show any other projected debt because only the Transit budget was modeled.
As for money you never know the ontario gov could step up down the road and pay more same with the feds.
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  #4111  
Old Posted Jul 16, 2011, 11:29 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Buses nowadays are designed for a 12 year lifespan, which can sometimes become 13 or 14 depending on the condition of the bus (if OC used them only for shorter-hour local service or peak service, they would likely get a few extra years). Extensive rebuilds can extend them, but are often more expensive to rebuild and maintain than buying new after 12 years.

The good news is, once the Orion VIs, a 1999 model, are retired (probably in 2012), no more bus retirements necessary until at least 2016. Only a few new buses will be needed and they will be for growth of the fleet.
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  #4112  
Old Posted Jul 17, 2011, 6:01 AM
lrt's friend lrt's friend is offline
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Originally Posted by Richard Eade View Post
And since we will be paying for the conversion (Phase 1) for 38 years, what makes you think there is any chance that we would have any money to do anything before 2050 any way? Remember, that is 38 years just for the initial capital costs; there will need to be big expenditures to keep the line running as well. For example, the LRVs should last 30 years, but (like the O-Trains) will likely need expensive rebuilds every ten years; and of course, 30 years is shorter than 38 years so they will need to be replaced before we have finished paying for them. (In the case of the O-Trains, we are simply replacing them at 10 years instead of rebuilding them. We just got rid of our 1997/8 buses too, but they cost a lot less to replace.) Would anyone buy a car that they would need to be paying for long after they had taken on more debt buying its replacement?

I am worried about the financing. The City Treasurer said that the modeling only showed the TRANSIT debt and that she had no idea as to what the City's total debt would be due to other departments. It is interesting to note that the number of water main breaks this year is up over last year, and that both Kanata and Orleans are also fed by a single large water main each. Take a look at how the City has needed to totally rebuild streets to replace the 100-year old infrastructure underneath; more and more of that is bound to happen within the next 38 years.

Already, this transit project is pushing the debt servicing cost above the limit that the City had set for itself. It is not above the Provincial limit, but the graphs don't show any other projected debt because only the Transit budget was modeled.
As this project moves closer and closer to reality, you have been sounding more and more pessimistic about it.

Oddly, as people continue to blungeon the original North-South project after all this time, the city has been spending millions on non-transit aspects of the project. The latest being the Hunt Club pedestrian bridge that had been intended to connect to the South Keys LRT station. We have already built 2 of the Park n Ride lots and in the process of building the Strandherd-Armstrong Bridge. Next will be a major rehabilitation of the Carleton University bridge that had been scheduled for replacement. It would be interesting to keep a running total on all these projects. It is also interesting to watch all this infrastructure being built that had been intended to be served or used by the train but a train will be many years away if it ever get built.
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  #4113  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2011, 1:56 AM
Richard Eade Richard Eade is offline
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Originally Posted by lrt's friend View Post
As this project moves closer and closer to reality, you have been sounding more and more pessimistic about it...
Yes, it might well sound like that; but it is not because of the project, per se. I have recently been hearing things like the Treasurer's statement that they had only modelled the Transit debt and that they had no idea of what other debt might be needed; or that the O-Trains are worn to the point of needing a major rebuild after only ten years. Apparently the residual value in these multi-million dollar units is only about $200,000 each.

The more I hear, the more I have to question whether City Staff know the concequences of what they are doing.

I find it interesting that the cost of the tunneling has dropped from $735 down to $493, but the entire project has remained at $2.1B. So now the cost of a tunnel is LESS THAN 1/4 of the project cost. If we spent even $600M (a 20% increase) on a bus tunnel, it would take a long, long time to eat up the other $1.5B in the extra cost to run buses.

And that is just the start of the savings: If we stayed with buses, they could continue to run along the Ottawa River Parkway. If we don't have to build the WLRT, we could save hundreds of millions more.

I like the idea of a train, but this is sounding more and more as if the City just doesn't know what it is getting in to.

I am convinced that it was Councilors and the Mayor who finally forced Staff to re-evaluate their downtown alignment. Staff had no interest at all in opening up something that was 'Council approved'. How many hundreds of times were they told that the tunnel was too deep? I reckon that Staff was told in no uncertain terms that the project would be killed if it was not modified to stay under $2.1B.

And that is exactly what Staff did: They made a change in the western portion of the tunnel so that the cost was reduced to $2.1B; then the optimization was stopped because no more was needed. What about all the other 'assumptions' which were not 'challenged'? No need to look any further; so they just connect up the new alignment and depth to the remaining previous plan. It doesn't matter if the train takes a "deep dive" after the Downtown-east Station so that it can meet the old plan, only to meet it at the point where it is rocketing up to the surface. Maybe we can charge a premium - if we can get the LRT licenced as an amusement ride.

Once Staff was forced to open up the plan, ALL assumptions should have been looked at. Now that the western portion of the tunnel is less deep, how about going ABOVE the sewers to the east of the canal. Those sewer pipes are 20 metres down, leaving lots of room for a tunnel above them. Then, since it is shallow, why not use Cut & Cover for that 'technically challenging' section in front of the Rideau Centre. That leaves only about 750 metres so it is hardly worth buying a Tunnel Boring Machine (TBM) for that. Now that a TBM is not going to be used, there is no need for such a large radius curve. Yes, I recognize that large radii curves are better for running a train around, but my point is that it is not NECESSARY. Maybe it would be possible to Cut & Cover a curve through the parking lot to the north-east of the Rideau Centre and run the tunnel to Campus under Nicholas Street. Since it is a relatively straignt line, maybe a new Laurier Station could be incorporated into the next phase of the Demarais Building.

And then there is what connects to the tunnel on the west end: If the tunnel doesn't have to dive down from LeBreton Station, maybe it would be better to simply keep the train elevated across LeBreton Flats. The plan of building a HUGE many-laned bridge to carry Booth Street over the train and the aqueduct may not be necessary if the train went over Booth. And if Booth isn't being closed down, maybe the extension of Preston doesn't need to also be a HUGE multi-laned bridge, just so it can get over the train and aqueduct, carring all of the truck traffic while Booth is out of commission. Not to mention, the steep drop (about 4.5%) from the Bayview Station to get under the Preston extension wouldn't be necessary; the train could travel almost level until it entered the escarpment face. Perhaps, this would even allow the train to pass over Commissioner and Wellington Streets, entering a portal high on the escarpment's face - which, in turn makes for a less deep, less expensive, run under Queen Street.

The possibilities are huge, but, alas, Staff has met their objective and reduced the cost to $2.1B. Who cares if it could have been made cheaper and better; that would take more work.
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  #4114  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2011, 8:01 PM
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...
all good assumptions to re-evaluate Richard. Others that I wish were on the table:
(1) Tunney's as a "temporary" transfer station for everyone (can we make it to Lincoln Fields and or Baseline by 2017 and save that wasted investment?)

(2 a) driver-operated LRT vs. Vancouver style automated light-metro: most of the transitway is already grade separated, we're spending a fortune to grade separate the worst stretch of at-grade Transitway, and (by the current state of the EA) we're soon to pay a fortune to not-quite grade separate the other missing link in grade-separated Transitway inside the Greenbelt: Dominion to LF. What is the benefit-cost of going all the way, grade separating everything, and never having to pay an operator? And don't tell me that the answer is so we can avoid grade-separating in the suburbs, I've seen sketches of the Transitways planned for Orleans and Kanata.

(2b) long trains less often vs. Vancouver-style shorter trains more often: what's the benefit-cost?

(3) 1-2 kilometre distances between stations in the built-up (and rapidly building-up) core of the city: other cities have metro stations much closer together in the core, why don't we? Specifically: how many people are moving into Ashcroftland, etc. around Wellington/Richmond and Island Park in the next ten years, shouldn't there be station less than a kilometre in either direction from there? can we attract them to transit if there isn't?

(4) what the hell are we doing with/about Gatineau? honestly? we're basically building a metro, and ignoring 1/4 of the metro population; this is Bush League stuff. (I know this is problematic from a jurisdictional/mandate question, but Gatineau is there, we all have to deal with it's existence, just like Barrhaven's, whether we want to or not.

(5) (and this is the big one) are we building an urban connector, a metro, or commuter rail? decide and pick the right technology of rail, spacing of stations, frequency of routing
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  #4115  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2011, 8:46 PM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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(1) Tunney's as a "temporary" transfer station for everyone (can we make it to Lincoln Fields and or Baseline by 2017 and save that wasted investment?)
Really, though. If nothing else, delay work at Tunney's until as late as possible in the schedule, and expedite work on the western extension, including financing issues. (There's an Ontario election this fall, in case no one noticed, and a federal one in 2015.)

On the other hand, can Tunney's be used to relieve some of the inbound bus traffic from the western half of STO territory via Island Park, including, possibly, some Crappybus traffic?

Quote:
What is the benefit-cost of going all the way, grade separating everything, and never having to pay an operator? And don't tell me that the answer is so we can avoid grade-separating in the suburbs, I've seen sketches of the Transitways planned for Orleans and Kanata.
A question I'd like answered, too.

Quote:
(3) 1-2 kilometre distances between stations in the built-up (and rapidly building-up) core of the city: other cities have metro stations much closer together in the core, why don't we? Specifically: how many people are moving into Ashcroftland, etc. around Wellington/Richmond and Island Park in the next ten years, shouldn't there be station less than a kilometre in either direction from there? can we attract them to transit if there isn't?
Seriously, though.

Quote:
(4) what the hell are we doing with/about Gatineau? honestly? we're basically building a metro, and ignoring 1/4 of the metro population; this is Bush League stuff. (I know this is problematic from a jurisdictional/mandate question, but Gatineau is there, we all have to deal with it's existence, just like Barrhaven's, whether we want to or not.
Where's the interprovincial transit study at now? And I think Ottawa needs to take a hard line: no busway conversion of the PoW bridge. If Gatineau wants it for transit, it'll damn well be an O-Train extension that uses it, to connect to a Crappybus connection on the Gatineau side.

Also, there's a Quebec provincial election in 2012.
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  #4116  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2011, 10:38 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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I do agree that the western section (to Baseline and Bayshore - yes, both should be built at that stage) needs to be fast-tracked.

I also agree that a driverless method needs to be looked at, like Vancouver. The only downside is that the third rail system makes it quite difficult to operate in Ottawa winters outdoors, any snowstorm of 20-25 cm or more could potentially cripple the system since the third rail would not work when covered by snow to a significant degree (although it gets pretty crippled now anyway) while overhead pantograph would be more reliable in all except rare ice storms. Suburban extensions should not be a huge issue as there is not much infrastructure required - most likely the Orleans extension would be in the 174 median and the Kanata extension in the 417 ROW - both already grade-separated. The Barrhaven extension would need expropriation near Hunt Club and several structures.

Yes, also Ottawa needs to take a hard line on the Prince of Wales Bridge. In fact, they should be working on an O-Train extension ASAP there.
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  #4117  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2011, 10:55 PM
MalcolmTucker MalcolmTucker is offline
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automation is not a function of having a third rail.
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  #4118  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2011, 11:00 PM
matty14 matty14 is offline
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The only downside is that the third rail system makes it quite difficult to operate in Ottawa winters outdoors, any snowstorm of 20-25 cm or more could potentially cripple the system since the third rail would not work when covered by snow to a significant degree...
Aren't there a few portions of the Toronto Subway that aren't underground? Don't they use third rail? I've never been for long enough to notice, do they have system-crippling shutdowns due to covered third rails frequently enough to consider it not a viable alternative? They get pretty similar winters as us don't they?
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  #4119  
Old Posted Jul 18, 2011, 11:21 PM
eternallyme eternallyme is offline
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Aren't there a few portions of the Toronto Subway that aren't underground? Don't they use third rail? I've never been for long enough to notice, do they have system-crippling shutdowns due to covered third rails frequently enough to consider it not a viable alternative? They get pretty similar winters as us don't they?
Ottawa gets nearly triple the average amount of snow Toronto gets in a year. They last had a system-crashing snowstorm in 1999, it shut the above-ground sections for several days.
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  #4120  
Old Posted Jul 19, 2011, 12:48 AM
Uhuniau Uhuniau is offline
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Ottawa gets nearly triple the average amount of snow Toronto gets in a year.
Umm, no. Thirty-year climate normal annual snowfall:

OTTAWA MACDONALD-CARTIER INT'L A: 235.7
OTTAWA CDA: 202.7

TORONTO MET RES STN: 133.4
TORONTO SUNNYBROOK: 131.1
TORONTO MALVERN: 120.1
TORONTO LESTER B. PEARSON INT'L A: 115.4
TORONTO ISLAND A: 112.8
TORONTO ASHBRIDGES BAY: 107.8
TORONTO METRO ZOO: 103.7
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