YEG - Edmonton Int Airport

[Bigtime]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

But if you can have both alternating days, I would assume you could capture more than less as people would often work around it no?

Maybe, maybe not. The money is in the business traveler, and for them the schedule is king.

[Coldrsx]

^Agreed, but having alternating days of TWO versus most days of ONE?

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

but what about the previously suggested '

3 days to FRA 4 to LHR or reversed

From a network planning perspective this plan makes no sense.

FRA and LHR are very slot controlled, both gate slots and runway slots. Basically AC would have to get daily slots at both FRA and LHR and then find another airline wanting the other days not utilized. This is not likely to happen. The only time this made sense for AC was the YVR-HKG operation. AC had to pay $6.5 million for daily slots in HKG and then only fly 4 weekly flights as the Cdn gov't wanted to protect CP.

The current YYC-NRT flight is only 4 times per week. However AC got the slots to NRT directly from Japan gov't, so it did not have to over pay for the landing and terminal rights.

Again from what I have been told by an AC EVP, there are no available slots in FRA for additional flights from AC. If LH does additional services from FRA, this is a slot reallocation (for the recent LH YYC service, the slots were pulled from BOS service). Once the new runway slots are available, AC will start YVR-FRA to complement the LH service. What happens beyond the YVR-FRA service is anyones guess.

Another key strategy point is the *A hub at LHR. LH all ready has full control over British Midland and might pickup Virgin Atlantic. The recent poor results of LH Italia (put 10 A320s into Milan by LH) has turned LH away from trying to establish cobranded flights like AF-KLM.However if LH merged BMI and Virgin into an LH branded operation, lets call it LH Britannia, the possibility exists that LH could turn LHR into a * hub. AC would then be better able to market connection services on YEG-LHR-Europe.

The big problem with LH Britannia concept is the British carbon taxes, which price LHR flights $400 more than FRA flights in the front cabin (the economy difference is only about $50). For Business and First customers, its more economical to fly through FRA.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Cage

From a network planning perspective this plan makes no sense.

FRA and LHR are very slot controlled, both gate slots and runway slots. Basically AC would have to get daily slots at both FRA and LHR and then find another airline wanting the other days not utilized. This is not likely to happen. The only time this made sense for AC was the YVR-HKG operation. AC had to pay $6.5 million for daily slots in HKG and then only fly 4 weekly flights as the Cdn gov't wanted to protect CP.

The current YYC-NRT flight is only 4 times per week. However AC got the slots to NRT directly from Japan gov't, so it did not have to over pay for the landing and terminal rights.

Again from what I have been told by an AC EVP, there are no available slots in FRA for additional flights from AC. If LH does additional services from FRA, this is a slot reallocation (for the recent LH YYC service, the slots were pulled from BOS service). Once the new runway slots are available, AC will start YVR-FRA to complement the LH service. What happens beyond the YVR-FRA service is anyones guess.

Another key strategy point is the *A hub at LHR. LH all ready has full control over British Midland and might pickup Virgin Atlantic. The recent poor results of LH Italia (put 10 A320s into Milan by LH) has turned LH away from trying to establish cobranded flights like AF-KLM.However if LH merged BMI and Virgin into an LH branded operation, lets call it LH Britannia, the possibility exists that LH could turn LHR into a * hub. AC would then be better able to market connection services on YEG-LHR-Europe.

The big problem with LH Britannia concept is the British carbon taxes, which price LHR flights $400 more than FRA flights in the front cabin (the economy difference is only about $50). For Business and First customers, its more economical to fly through FRA.

Why not get a gate at Munich instead? It's LH's #2 hub in Germany. Time for YEG to think outside the box.

[MalcolmTucker]

The carbon taxes are EU wide no? Or will be soon enough.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by s211

Why not get a gate at Munich instead? It's LH's #2 hub in Germany. Time for YEG to think outside the box.

Either of YEG-FRA or YEG-MUC were pitched to LH by Edm Airports in the mid 2000's. The problem at the time was that YEG could only support one European flight per day, and even then this flight would have to capture 85% of the YEG to Europe traffic inorder to work. LH was willing to make the investment but did not have a suitable aircraft (763 size, the 333 or 343 is too big for the market). AC has the 763 but there was no profit JV between AC and LH (only a codeshare and alliance agreement) plus AC wanted to grow FRA through YUL and YOW.

In the end AC ended up starting service to LHR. the service does very well in the summer and good yields in the winter. Only question is whether moving the service to FRA or MUC would increase the connection possibilities.

MUC is a good place for a second daily service (like YYC-FRA), but FRA is where the main international connection point for LH and Star in general. That said, the future for LH and Star is MUC, not FRA (and this even with FRA's new runway). MUC is at 34 million passengers and just announced a third parrallel runway and new satellite terminal for T-2.

[CMD UW]

^Thanks Cage, very informative.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The carbon taxes are EU wide no? Or will be soon enough.

The carbon trading scheme is EU wide. But the carbon taxes on British Air travel are exclusive to Britain. Also they are not necessarily branded as carbon taxes, but are instead aviation immigration and customs taxes. The carbon taxes are punative in that they only apply to air travel and are especially harsh on first class travel.

[Policy Wonk]

The bottom line is it is almost impossible for international airlines to make a business case for adding non-essential Canadian destinations or frequencies.

For a city like Edmonton it is the false economy of Canadian aviation that does them in because YEG isn't just competing with YYC for service - they are competing with every city on earth. The problem is the catastrophic failure that was the Liberals aviation privatization policy has made serving Canadian destinations so ridiculously expensive that aggressive route development just doesn't occur here.

Canadians rant and rave about the fees that double the price of a fare but airlines get the exact same treatment and then some. If you are "EuroAir" and you're trying to figure out what to do with a spare A330 you aren't going to be looking for to duplicate service in Canada in cities 300km apart so you can dilute your own yield and give more money to NavCan and the internationally hated Canadian airport authorities.

If you are "EuroAir" there is no reason to choose to serve YEG instead of YYC. So... give them one. Cap landing fees at 250,000lbs, cap terminal fees at 200 passengers and eliminate the premium fees on international arrivals. Make YEG the airport where international airlines don't have to deal with the bullshit they get at every other airport in the country.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

If you are "EuroAir" there is no reason to choose to serve YEG instead of YYC. So... give them one. Cap landing fees at 250,000lbs, cap terminal fees at 200 passengers and eliminate the premium fees on international arrivals. Make YEG the airport where international airlines don't have to deal with the bullshit they get at every other airport in the country.

Great idea, but cannnot be done on the terms you are proposing.
- Cap landing fees at 250k lbs and terminal fees at 200 pax would have WS (YEG largest tennant) screaming for a rate reduction at the large narrowbody category.
- Eliminate premium fees on international arrvials. Are you talking about all international arrivals (Sun destinations, USA, Europe, charter, etc) or just arrivals from Europe and/or arrivals of large widebody a/c? Also what premium fees are you talking about? If the fees are customs and immigration, the airport does not charge these fees. If the fee reduction is only for certain destinations, then like the above instance, WS and other airlines will want the same reduction.

For the past 5 or so year YEG has done very well for itself. The pax count has increased nicely and there are a bunch of new services that came online in the past 3 years. Also YEG could see a traffic boost once YYC gets the new international terminal. The connection times for WS from domestic to international are going to skyrocket. AC will see a smaller increase in hassle and time as well. I predict that public perception as to the better connection airport will switch from YYC to YEG for Northern and SK residents.

[Policy Wonk]

EIA or any airport authority is completely within their rights to incentivize with fees to fill gaps in their service. EIA charges higher fees for the use of the international gates, they also have an airline surcharge for US flights utilizing pre-clearance. YEG being defined as CBSA as Tier 1 airport does not directly subsidize customs services.

That isn't to say that being an international airport doesn't incur added expenses for EIA but the incentivized international arrivals would be a drop in the bucket relative to US and Caribbean traffic.

I don't dispute that EIA is in a tough position with WestJet, YEG does after all owe its very survival as a relevant destination to WestJet. They will not however in any useful timeframe fill in the international service gaps at YEG.

International airlines will never aggressively rebalance service in favour of the wider Canadian market when the costs everywhere are so out of whack with the rest of the world. A "public perception" that YEG is the better airport for connections isn't going to deliver flights.

People are oblivious to it but the transportation policies of the Chretien government are the single greatest policy failure of the last fifty years.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Policy Wonk

People are oblivious to it but the transportation policies of the Chretien government are the single greatest policy failure of the last fifty years.

Second only to multi-culturalism!

I kid. I think.

[LO 044]

Originally Posted by Cage

Only question is whether moving the service to FRA or MUC would increase the connection possibilities.

All the flight connections below are not very good and they ALL require a terminal change. What, does AC fly into Terminal Z because i don't see any easy or hassle-free transfer possibilities. When you choose Amsterdam, Paris, Rome or Barcelona, you are routed through Toronto or Calgary/Frankfurt.

YEG-WAW-YEG
AC898 22:25 14:05
AC6758 17:50 21:20

AC6755 07:50 09:35
AC899 16:15 18:10

YEG-TXL-YEG
AC898 22:25 14:05
AC6612 17:30 20:25

AC6585 11:00 12:00
AC899 16:15 18:10

YEG-DEL-YEG
AC898 22:25 14:05
AC6008 20:45 09:45

AC6009 13:45 18:30
AC899 16:15 18:10 763

YEG-VIE-YEG
AC898 22:25 14:05
AC6154 15:35 19:05

AC898 22:25 14:05
AC6160 19:35 22:50

AC6611 11:40 13:05
AC899 16:15 18:10

[Rocket252]

There seems to be so many roadblocks with AC and Europe here in YEG that people naturally will gravitate to Toronto or Calgary as routings.

I still can't figure out why AC flies YEG - LHR at all if only to inhibit other airlines from doing it.

Terrible service

[dansk]

Originally Posted by Rocket252

There seems to be so many roadblocks with AC and Europe here in YEG that people naturally will gravitate to Toronto or Calgary as routings.

I still can't figure out why AC flies YEG - LHR at all if only to inhibit other airlines from doing it.

Terrible service

AC makes good money on the YEG_LHR so that is why. It is very full in the summer, and like stated before has good yields in the winter considering. I fly alot and really appreciate the service.

[Rocket252]

^ And even though we have such success with LHR we cannot even get a "trial" seasonal service from AC for YEG - FRA.

At least give the route an opportunity to prove itself one way or another

[MalcolmTucker]

If there was enough demand to make a go of it without making both uneconomic I think it would happen pretty fast. The airlines aren't stupid, they track everyone that travels. As has been said, Lufthansa said it needed almost all Europe traffic in the market to make a go of YEG-FRA. Right now YEG-LHR fills that gap. I don't get why that is hard to understand?

[hilman]

I think there is a lot more to it than that, AC loves their hub and spoke model and imo does everything it can to not sway from this (i.e. gives YEG horrible air service). You are trying to tell me a booming city of over 1 million people cannot supprt a daily flight to FRA? It seems thery rather have multiple flights from YYC that are half full rather than give one to YEG.

[espalorius]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

If there was enough demand to make a go of it without making both uneconomic I think it would happen pretty fast. The airlines aren't stupid, they track everyone that travels. As has been said, Lufthansa said it needed almost all Europe traffic in the market to make a go of YEG-FRA. Right now YEG-LHR fills that gap. I don't get why that is hard to understand?

This post was very clear and logical

Originally Posted by hilman

I think there is a lot more to it than that, AC loves their hub and spoke model and imo does everything it can to not sway from this (i.e. gives YEG horrible air service). You are trying to tell me a booming city of over 1 million people cannot supprt a daily flight to FRA? It seems thery rather have multiple flights from YYC that are half full rather than give one to YEG.

This one...
I dunno, I mean if they could make more money in Edmonton they would....right?

[LO 044]

I would be very curious to see how many people actually connect through LHR via AC codeshares because i believe this is the only way AC sees connections. If you're trying to book two seperate tickets via LHR then good luck to you if one of your flights is delayed let alone if the airlines aren't in the same alliance.

Booking with AC.com gives you garbage choices for connections via LHR or gives you better or the only routing via YUL/YYZ/YYC/FRA. I once tried to fly to Europe via Ottawa and Frankfurt to give the Edmonton - Ottawa route a boost. I figure we have enough Edmonton - Toronto flights. Of course i had to do this through an AC agent who was completely inept and gave me some kind of price that was double the regular routings.