Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

That would be absolutely awesome to see. This could quite possibly be my least favourite area in the entirety of Surrey. Right now it's quite barren with a mix of light industrial and residential, along with a whole bunch of junkyards. Compare this with New Westminster right across the river looking like a booming dense residential centre; now look across the river - major eyesore of nothingness! There is huge potential for this area. It would be well built around existing transit connections, and there are two major city centres (New Westminster and Whalley) are on either side. This area could be well-built as urbanized high density development right away. The way Scott Road is built right now is a park and ride, and has succeeded as a park and ride, but hasn't really done anything to revolutionize the area around it; I would like to see that change, with more people accessing the area by transit to travel to other destinations, as well as more reasons to travel in and out with residential and commercial development. To recreate this area as a town centre would create a very integral "Y" system of town centres within the City of Surrey, that could support each other really well. By starting fresh and anew, the new community could also be designed to be even more livable and walkable than anything else existing. You would also create a very nice link in between Surrey's City Centre and other cities in the Metro.

The issue would be very similar in terms of building skytrain to 168th and ending it there. Again, you're encouraging people to drive to transit, and it is probably going to remain like that forever even if the skytrain is extended the full way into a major city centre. It's happened at Scott Road, and it can happen as such there. I do support the idea of park and ride as a way to initiate transit use but I don't believe it should remain that way forever. Transit options should eventually and quickly be expanded to these park and rides, which would have great potentials to redevelop as major commercial & residential centres. The situation would perhaps be different if the expansion is taken a bit further to 184th. Speaking strictly short-term and of serving Clayton, this is a community that is still quite new and perhaps immature. Not only would such a long distance extension be expensive, but there would be no one on the way to effectively serve, and there is no guarantee that it would work. Clayton seems to have been designed to be totally residential; it is very new and the perhaps very immature. The closest major commercial and industrial centres are Langley and Cloverdale. Clayton is simply too far to serve as a node to other town centres like Whalley, and there's not even any guarantee that people would take advantage of this line; as a resident of Clayton, I would most likely still shop and work in Cloverdale or Langley, simply because these centres are closer and still way more accessible. Extending Skytrain to Clayton would serve the community's wish to travel to major city centres, but you may not be actually be supporting that community as a community. In addition, when you are thinking of serving Langley with this line, you are missing Langley, a matured and important community just beyond this that would most likely end up driving to this area - hence the park-n-ride effect prevails once again, and this could end up being an effect that disadvantages the brand new areas of Clayton.


I believe Newton is currently being primed for as a major commercial town centre in the upcoming years. To be honest our arguments based on serving Newton with Skytrain seem to be more based on population, not density or what actually exists there. You are right about density; I don't believe there are actually any skyscrapers in the vicinity of Newton nor are there any planned, and in terms of major commercial development, you can't really be sure about that either. There is a nice amount of Industrial nearby however, I can see how a Newton extension can still benefit the rest of Surrey even if you are not just serving residential priorities. I would like to see this area develop into something on the scale of Richmond's industrial to the north and east, where there are many large warehouses (such as those of NCIX, a major Canadian computer store) and other large company headquarters (such as T&T supermarket); such a thing could make a huge difference in supporting the city of Surrey. In Richmond, it works fairly well even without rapid transit, because this industrial is close to commercial & residential centres. If you connect towards that area with nearby rapid transit, the area could really shine and Surrey would be one big step ahead in attracting industrial development. As even more new industrial moves into there, there would already be the residential & commercial to support it. In addition, by extending in the direction of Newton, you would also be allowing for better access to Bear Creek Park from all three major centres and by extension those beyond it.


I took a look through what BC MOT posted on Slideshare and came across this option. It actually doesn't seem like a bad idea for connecting Abbotsford to the metro, however you would be taking away from Surrey as a hub for the SOF. I don't believe it serves Abbotsford Airport either. If you are trying to get Abbotsford-Vancouver travellers out of their car, it does seem like a viable option.

Surrey has plans for the sout westminster area. Well most of it is still in the eyes for industrial there are plans for a water fron park connecting the two parks already there. Plus there is plans for a transit village around scott road and 104/tannery will become a residention/retail street all the way to the water.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Lie. You would be saving a significant amount of money in the long term due to significantly lower operating costs and little need to buy new trains, and the ability to use existing maintenance depots. I have pointed out on the other page how an LRT might actually end up costing more for everybody involved in funding.

You would definitely need to buy new trains. Your proposed project has the Guildford line as an isolated route, separate from the Expo line. So to run any train on there, it would need to be taken out of service on the Expo line. That means reduced frequency on other lines, where it currently needs to be increased, just to keep your project costs down.

You are talking about a 10km route, you are going to need more than just a couple trains to run it. Otherwise you just have low frequencies; frequencies that can be easily achieved with a much cheaper to build LRT. If you say you need at least 35 LRT trains, why don't you need at least 20 Skytrain trains?

It sounds like you are just building a lot of infrastructure for frequency and capacity you will never need for such a small route, compared to others.

And just because something over the period of 20 years seems cheaper, doesn't mean that is what should be done. Sometimes coming up with the larger cash (or the cost of borrowing it) is a larger hardship than the long term savings. And Skytrain is not without operating costs, as stations need to be patrolled on a regular basis by security, staff, and police, and electricity isn't free. There have to be other factors that validate the long term spending.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Guildford may be on the edge of the city but you are not lying directly at the edge of the metro. There is plenty of expansion space as well. There's plenty of space to develop, such as around the new 4-laned 96th avenue - most of which is currently rural residential, but can be redeveloped. In addition at the east end is Port Kells, a major industrial hub for the SOF. Slightly east is Walnut Grove, another big residential area.

Here is a good riddle for you:

Q: If you get on the bus at 96th ave and 164 St, what's the difference between taking the bus to the Skytrain station at Guildford Town Center or to King George station?

A: about 2 minutes and $500 million.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

You are severely underestimating the role of 104th then. 104th is Surrey's primary connection to virtually everywhere to the east. It is the road that connects to the major Trans Canada Highway, from where you can reach Langley (200th St), Cloverdale (via Hwy 15), Maple Ridge/Pitt Meadows, or if you do so wish Abbostford. I believe it was earlier mentioned that a significant portion of 104th traffic comes from the highway. A dedicated lane on the Highway is even being given up to exit onto 104th.

You are basing your importance of 104 ave on its importance to the motorist. It is only important at the present time, to people in cars. And not just people in cars, but people in cars coming from and going to places other than Surrey.

If Skytrain went to Langley, then people from there would STOP USING 104 ave (or at least not as much). They would have Skytrain, and not be so automobile dependent.

You can also use many other parallel routes much more effectively. Fraser highway is much faster for travel between Whalley and Cloverdale. 96 (was and will be when its done) is good for access to Port Kells. 88 is decent across town. 100 and 108 basically do exactly what 104 does. And the soon to be SFPR will be the grand daddy of them all.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

A Highway 15 N/S bus route could intently serve the areas of Cloverdale & Clayton Heights very well if one wishes to link these centres with whatever is beyond. The same goes for a BRT line that takes you via Newton. You would be saving just as much time as a striaght through Fraser Highway route; the route, as pointed out in another thread, would not be any longer. In addition, you are serving city centres that actually need expanded transit right now and the most.

I really don't know what you are getting at with a highway 15 bus. Only one little sliver of Cloverdale is anywhere near highway 15. And once you pass Fraser Highway you have a whole lot of nothing. Where would this bus go? Even going to Guildford, taking the Fraser hwy 99% of the day is faster.

For example, lets say we have an express bus from the Cloverdale Fair grounds (which is further west than East Clayton) on 64th to potential Skytrain stations. For the sake of comparison, we'll say it's the best day possible and the bus makes no stops.

To Guildford: at least 15 minutes (17 if you go down 168 to pass more homes)
To Newton: at least 14 minutes (straight down 64th)
To King George: at least 16 minutes (down Fraser hwy)
To 168 St: 6 minutes.

It's a bit simplistic, but see what I mean?

Skytrain to Guildford or Newton does not improve the bus ride length for residents east of 152nd street, over what exists today.

How about this for a test. Catch a bus (that doesn't stop for simplicity again) at 84ave & 152st.

Guildford: 8 minutes (actually 11 minutes on an existing direct bus)
King George Station: 7 minutes (10 minutes on an existing direct bus)
King George and 88 ave: 7 minutes.
Fraser Hwy & 152: 2 minutes (same on existing bus).

Again, going to Newton or Guildford offers no real savings over what exists right now, and that is true for almost anyone south of 96 ave, which happens to be most of Surrey.

Skytrain to Guildford is good for Guildford, not necessarily good for Surrey.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Guildford TC is the largest mall in the SOF... it is among the largest in BC. It is the closest and biggest option for the majority of the city of Surrey, and it is being expanded further. There are many other nearby amenities worth going to in Guildford such as a large movie theatre. Making this easily accessible to the city of Surrey can and will prove very popular. There's a reason many people in the lower mainland will travel long distances to access a mall such as Metrotown.

But Skytrain brings people in from the East and West of Metrotown. It is located basically at the center of the Skytrain network. Guildford, under your idea, is not. Guildford is at the end. Meaning Metrotown is closer to almost every one else on Skytrain. Why would people go to Guildford, for any reason, when they can stop at Metrotown or even City Center?

Malls are cool places to hang out and all, but they don't drive transit ridership. People commuting between homes and work does.

I can see the Skytrain, like jhausner said, extending from King George, looping up to Guildford, then back down 152 to Fraser Highway, stopping at 168 st until it is extended to Langley in the next phase in the future. But that seems like an expensive detour that might not be worth it.

But extending Skytrain to Guildford with

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I can agree that Skytrain can very effectively show its speed on long distances but the way we tout Skytrain it is still more of an urban form of transportation. Are there really any places going to that are worth serving other than residents?

Keep in mind Langley is also spread out into distinct centres. Some 25,000 or more now live in the area of Walnut Grove and the most accessible option to them is Guildford. That's a quarter of the township population. Many of the new developments in Langley are situated on the north side, in which case rapid transit via either Fraser Highway or Highway 1 through Guildford would have no time difference.

Ok, so you want to forsake 75% of Langley residents, Langley City, and Cloverdale, so that the 25% of Langley Residents in Walnut Grove can shave 3 or 4 minutes off their commute? They are still going to have a 20 minute bus ride, stopping at Guildford and taking the train to Whalley will only save them a couple minutes at best. It is hard to justify such a small savings for such a small number of people at such a huge cost.

If you are in Langley, 88 or further south, busing to a point on the Fraser Highway to catch Skytrain (if it went to Langley) would be a huge time savings over busing all the way to Guildford. Not to mention Tranlink would need fewer buses on shorter routes to offer better, no transfer rides to Skytrain.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Once the RapidBus comes in I can see why a lot of people in Langley will move to this as their primary rapid transit connection with the City of Surrey and the rest of the Metro. A lot of people drive Fraser Highway or ride transit on the Fraser Highway (502) to skip Highway 1 traffic. With the upcoming improvements, that will no longer be the case.

No!

People ride the 502 because it passes closer to their house. The 501 is ONLY good if you start your trip near the 200 st Corridor. If you start further west, like in Cloverdale/Clayton (which town center wise are the same thing for sake of argument) then you take the 502. Going in a giant semi circle makes no sense at all when you can do it in one straight line. Plus a transfer-less ride will be shorter on the 502.

[xd_1771]

I used the 35 LRT trains figure for a route that encompasses Newton and Whalley and Guildford, not just Whalley and Guildford.

I don't really expect Skytrain to be built to Langley, perhaps ever, over the next few years. That would require a massive extension of the Expo Line to over 2x it's length; if it is wished to keep Expo Line frequency to the same as Vancouver-Surrey frequencies (where it actually does make sense), you would need tons and tons of new trains. It would indeed cost billions and billions. I can see this coming in perhaps a long long time but realistically, they are going to look at extensions to Newton and Guildford first. Until then, I don't see how there could be any decrease in traffic along these routes. These areas are growing quickly, the areas beyond them are growing quickly, and there are expansions in transit, infrastructure and other development that are going to bring more people to these places. Think of where densification could easily happen and is most likely to happen; I am not seeing Fleetwood or Clayton as either one of those places where you are going to start seeing much larger commercial or residential development anytime soon.

Again you seem to be convinced that the only thing I am trying to tout is Skytrain to Guildford. I have pointed out and do support Skytrain that also extends south to Newton - which would keep a huge majority of the city of Surrey in check. In any case, Skytrain to Guildford will add an extra 2-3 km. Because you are bringing this line to more people, a large SOF mall, and a place where actual densification might easily occur, it could easily become worth the cost. These are among reasons why Whalleyboy is supporting connecting Cloverdale & Langley to a Skytrain network via Newton (5km longer). Some of these are also reasons that Translink built Canada Line on Cambie instead of Arbutus.

A lot of your numbers also seem to conflict with each other. If you are riding to from the Cloverdale fairgrounds to a Skytrain station at Fraser Highway/168th, it takes 6 minutes. The Skytrain is 7.5km to King George and at 45km/h average this takes 10 minutes. Where's the savings now? If you use a Highway 15 bus to Guildford as an express (strictly serving Cloverdale), then sure, it might take a bit longer to complete the trip, but you are giving people more options. This route can serve travellers going to Guildford (mall, etc.), Whalley, and anywhere beyond Whalley including Newton, all in one fast express bus, with equally fast or faster connections beyond. Meanwhile, the Skytrain from 152nd/Fraser to King George is a 3.5km line through parkland, so the route takes about 4-5 minutes. Savings are few if any. You are giving Fleetwood many options to get to commercial centres or the metro; such options could be strengthened by adding express buses that take the same time as a skytrain.

I am suggesting an express rapidbus to Guildford from Cloverdale via Highways 15 and 1 is because it gives Cloverdale residents wanting to go beyond an alternative that is not costly to build and an effective start point. By taking the express routes you are giving these people a new and fast form of travel and it can complement local routes along the Fraser Highway. With the new expanded Highway 1, traffic on this route will be flawlessly fast and jam-less.

The 501 serves the city of Langley, not Clayton or Fleetwood, and I understand that. I am pointing out that the reason a lot of people are on the 502 from Langley is because they don't want to have to deal with Highway 1 traffic. Once the RapidBus comes in, I can see how the traffic on this route will decrease as more and more Langley residents use the alternative and fast RapidBus. Where's your crowded 502 bus now?

Again if we are going to build Skytrain to 168th, we are going to encourage massive urban sprawl. Whalley will grow, Fleetwood may grow, but the already denser centres of Newon & Guildford, closest to the actual City of Surrey, won't grow. The majority of the City of Surrey as a whole will never move on from this Calgary-style density and we will never reach the walkable, livable lifestyle we are all dreaming of for the City of Surrey.

Surrey has plans for the sout westminster area. Well most of it is still in the eyes for industrial there are plans for a water fron park connecting the two parks already there. Plus there is plans for a transit village around scott road and 104/tannery will become a residention/retail street all the way to the water.

I'm hoping development starts quickly and with high density. This area would sell it, it seems in the perfect location for being able to access a variety of places - not just the metro, but the City of Surrey. Surrey could grow well along this major Y of town centres (Scott Rd, Whalley, Newton, Guildford), especially if all are connected by Skytrain.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

That would be absolutely awesome to see. This could quite possibly be my least favourite area in the entirety of Surrey. Right now it's quite barren with a mix of light industrial and residential, along with a whole bunch of junkyards. Compare this with New Westminster right across the river looking like a booming dense residential centre; now look across the river - major eyesore of nothingness! There is huge potential for this area. It would be well built around existing transit connections, and there are two major city centres (New Westminster and Whalley) are on either side. This area could be well-built as urbanized high density development right away. The way Scott Road is built right now is a park and ride, and has succeeded as a park and ride, but hasn't really done anything to revolutionize the area around it; I would like to see that change, with more people accessing the area by transit to travel to other destinations, as well as more reasons to travel in and out with residential and commercial development. To recreate this area as a town centre would create a very integral "Y" system of town centres within the City of Surrey, that could support each other really well. By starting fresh and anew, the new community could also be designed to be even more livable and walkable than anything else existing. You would also create a very nice link in between Surrey's City Centre and other cities in the Metro.

The issue would be very similar in terms of building skytrain to 168th and ending it there. Again, you're encouraging people to drive to transit, and it is probably going to remain like that forever even if the skytrain is extended the full way into a major city centre. It's happened at Scott Road, and it can happen as such there. I do support the idea of park and ride as a way to initiate transit use but I don't believe it should remain that way forever. Transit options should eventually and quickly be expanded to these park and rides, which would have great potentials to redevelop as major commercial & residential centres. The situation would perhaps be different if the expansion is taken a bit further to 184th. Speaking strictly short-term and of serving Clayton, this is a community that is still quite new and perhaps immature. Not only would such a long distance extension be expensive, but there would be no one on the way to effectively serve, and there is no guarantee that it would work. Clayton seems to have been designed to be totally residential; it is very new and the perhaps very immature. The closest major commercial and industrial centres are Langley and Cloverdale. Clayton is simply too far to serve as a node to other town centres like Whalley, and there's not even any guarantee that people would take advantage of this line; as a resident of Clayton, I would most likely still shop and work in Cloverdale or Langley, simply because these centres are closer and still way more accessible. Extending Skytrain to Clayton would serve the community's wish to travel to major city centres, but you may not be actually be supporting that community as a community. In addition, when you are thinking of serving Langley with this line, you are missing Langley, a matured and important community just beyond this that would most likely end up driving to this area - hence the park-n-ride effect prevails once again, and this could end up being an effect that disadvantages the brand new areas of Clayton.


I believe Newton is currently being primed for as a major commercial town centre in the upcoming years. To be honest our arguments based on serving Newton with Skytrain seem to be more based on population, not density or what actually exists there. You are right about density; I don't believe there are actually any skyscrapers in the vicinity of Newton nor are there any planned, and in terms of major commercial development, you can't really be sure about that either. There is a nice amount of Industrial nearby however, I can see how a Newton extension can still benefit the rest of Surrey even if you are not just serving residential priorities. I would like to see this area develop into something on the scale of Richmond's industrial to the north and east, where there are many large warehouses (such as those of NCIX, a major Canadian computer store) and other large company headquarters (such as T&T supermarket); such a thing could make a huge difference in supporting the city of Surrey. In Richmond, it works fairly well even without rapid transit, because this industrial is close to commercial & residential centres. If you connect towards that area with nearby rapid transit, the area could really shine and Surrey would be one big step ahead in attracting industrial development. As even more new industrial moves into there, there would already be the residential & commercial to support it. In addition, by extending in the direction of Newton, you would also be allowing for better access to Bear Creek Park from all three major centres and by extension those beyond it.


I took a look through what BC MOT posted on Slideshare and came across this option. It actually doesn't seem like a bad idea for connecting Abbotsford to the metro, however you would be taking away from Surrey as a hub for the SOF. I don't believe it serves Abbotsford Airport either. If you are trying to get Abbotsford-Vancouver travellers out of their car, it does seem like a viable option.

I am completely against this. For several reasons.

First, our area still needs industrial land with good access to the Fraser River. If anything I would like to see industry (light and or heavy) to be densified within this area. I do agree there are too many brown fields currently not being utilized in this area, but I would like to see them be infilled with industrial facilities or at the very least shipping facilities and warehouses.

Second, for mass transit to work well people need to be able to live and work near mass transit, if every station becomes a condo hub, then we have a problem. Scott Road is a perfect station to become a work hub / transit exchange.

Third, and possibly the most important, Surrey is already far too spread out in regards to its town centres. IMO the last thing it needs is to start another town centre when it already has soooo many half complete with countless brown fields. I think it would be in Surrey's best interest to simply focus their residential, office, commercial and entertainment developments primarily around Whalley (Gateway station to king George) and to a lesser degree Guildford, Fleetwood, etc... I think Surrey already has enough semi-urbanized areas to infill and improve on before creating another

[xd_1771]

I'm not necessarily stating that industrial has to be completely taken away from that area. Perhaps if you are talking about (most of) the area south of Scott Road, then you would be right. Actually densifying the industrial theredoesn't seem half bad an idea as it's near a major exit on the SFPR. However, to create a new residential & commercial neighbourhood there isn't actually a half bad idea either; there is a lot of very low density residential to the north of King George Highway (Bridgeview), I can see how redeveloping that area into a somewhat higher density condominium area would work so well. This could really help Surrey's growth and connection to the rest of the metro; since the area is in such a perfect area where you have so many choices for accessibility, anything built there would sell like hotcakes. It would be just like Queensborough, but with an even bigger advantage that you could connect to everywhere via Skytrain right away. Such a development could support the added industrial in a local way also.

I do highly agree with what you said about Surrey being way too highly spread out. They seem to be angling more of the development towards Clayton - a community that is very very far from the rest of the city and very very expensive to effectively service. They appear to be working on improving the density in Whalley, that's a good thing, but there seems to be nothing done to the areas around. I don't think approaching a "Calgary" style of development (land-zoning wise) would do very good for the city's future as a big, livable and walkable city. I would like to see significant densification in areas such as Guildford & Newton, along with investments such as Skytrain that can readily support that. Perhaps when the residential areas around these centres reaches a similar kind of residential density to the city of Vancouver, Surrey should start developing further outwards.

[Metro-One]

I still feel for the reasons stated above that this should not be on Surrey's radar right now, and the SFPR is another reason why it should be left as industrial land, since this new highway is meant to be an industrial artery, and seeing how one of the only interchanges is planned for that area, it really should stay industrial. And again, Surrey really needs to concentrate growth in its existing town centres. They literally have decades worth of parking lots and brown fields to develop around Gateway, King George and Surrey City centre skytrain stations stations. No need for Surrey to spread itself even more thin, not every city needs to have waterfront, look at Burnaby, like Metrotown i think having Surrey's heart on top of the escarpment is far more impressive then developing around the water.

although I do agree that it would be nice to see the Scott Road park and ride built as a multi-level parkade instead of the sprawling surface lot it is now.

Another reason why I don't want residential development to be encouraged around Scott Road is because as history has shown, residential and industry are not a good mix in an area, the NIMBY factor will slowly but surely choke the industrial neighbors.

[xd_1771]

As much as I would love to see that waterfront, you do seem to make a good point; Burnaby seems to have planned its own waterfront area the same. Mostly industrial with a few commercial developments at Marine & Byrne, it does seem to be working very well. It's fairly similar I guess too with 22nd St. Skytrain nearby.

What to do with the residential to the north (Bridgeview) though, I can't expect that to stay forever

[Metro-One]

Exactly,and i should also add I feel this will further help Surrey become far more than just another suburb, but indeed a city upon itself. just building waterfront condos or residential hubs makes one no more than a bedroom community.

But, having a strong industrial base (such as what can be done around Scott Road / station, and a strong commercial / entertainment / political centre with high density residential (such as what can be done around Gateway to King George) will actually help create a second heart to our region.

This is also why i want to see far more than just condos built in Whalley, I would love to see Surrey chase after the whitecaps stadium and the now rejected hotel / casino complex and have them built in Whalley near skytrain, and therefore also be able to build a strong case to create a convention centre and offices along with the condos.

This would become a true city, instead of another high density suburb, and having a strong industrial base nearby would be a huge feather in Surrey's cap.

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I am completely against this. For several reasons.

First, our area still needs industrial land with good access to the Fraser River. If anything I would like to see industry (light and or heavy) to be densified within this area. I do agree there are too many brown fields currently not being utilized in this area, but I would like to see them be infilled with industrial facilities or at the very least shipping facilities and warehouses.

Second, for mass transit to work well people need to be able to live and work near mass transit, if every station becomes a condo hub, then we have a problem. Scott Road is a perfect station to become a work hub / transit exchange.

Third, and possibly the most important, Surrey is already far too spread out in regards to its town centres. IMO the last thing it needs is to start another town centre when it already has soooo many half complete with countless brown fields. I think it would be in Surrey's best interest to simply focus their residential, office, commercial and entertainment developments primarily around Whalley (Gateway station to king George) and to a lesser degree Guildford, Fleetwood, etc... I think Surrey already has enough semi-urbanized areas to infill and improve on before creating another

Actually the south westminster plan does stay fairly industrial for most of it. They jsut take certain areas and make them more walkign and pedestrian friendly to clean up the area and connect surrey back to its routes with the river. Personally I'm quite happy with the way the city has that area planned out.

You can see it all here
http://surrey.ca/files/SouthWestminster110704.pdf

[xd_1771]

It looks quite good but I'm disappointed they won't be doing anything to redevelop Bridgeview

[Millennium2002]

I'm going to move the topic in a slightly different direction. It appears TransLink decided that yesterday was the best day to kill two birds with one stone by announcing the next stages for both the Burnaby Mountain Gondola and Surrey Rapid Transit studies.

Surrey Rapid Transit Study Phase 2 – mark your calenders!

What will the future of Surrey transit look like?

As you’ve read on this blog, in partnership with the Province of BC, our staff have been working with the public and stakeholders on different alternatives for rapid transit service for the rapidly growing City of Surrey since our first public consultation last October. Today we’re announcing the next phase of the process which is to review the alternatives that came out of the last consultation and ask the public and stakeholders to help determine the best rapid transit solution for Surrey.
Information about the public consultations, the webinar, the questionnaire, and a recap of the results of Phase 1 can be found on our Surrey Rapid Transit Be Part of the Plan page.

May 26th – June 24th
This is when you can be part of the process in-person, online, and in your own words. Again, please take note of the specifics on the Be Part of the Plan page. Here are the important dates to remember:

Webinar:

May 30, 2011 – preregister now
7 p.m.

Consultations:

May 31, 2011
6:30 p.m. – 9 p.m. Langley Hampton Inn
Rooms A, B & C
19500 Langley Bypass
Surrey

June 2, 2011
6:30 p.m. – 9 p.m. SFU Surrey
Rooms 5100 & 5140
13450 102 Ave,
Surrey

June 8, 2011
6:30 p.m. – 9 p.m. Newton Seniors’ Centre
Auditorium
13775 70 Ave,
Surrey

June 9, 2011
6:30 p.m. – 9 p.m. Guildford Sheraton Hotel
15269 104 Ave,
Surrey

Questionnaire – May 26 - June 24

from The Buzzer at TransLink

Also worth noting that they released the feedback from phase 1:
- overview of feedback in general.
- overview of workshop feedback

Apparently one of the big themes was transit inequality between Surrey and Vancouver, with people implicitly mentioning that they don't want the UBC Line to be built first. (sigh). Not this problem again. When will they ever figure out their priorities with this back and forth debate?

[delboy]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Exactly,and i should also add I feel this will further help Surrey become far more than just another suburb, but indeed a city upon itself. just building waterfront condos or residential hubs makes one no more than a bedroom community.

But, having a strong industrial base (such as what can be done around Scott Road / station, and a strong commercial / entertainment / political centre with high density residential (such as what can be done around Gateway to King George) will actually help create a second heart to our region.

This is also why i want to see far more than just condos built in Whalley, I would love to see Surrey chase after the whitecaps stadium and the now rejected hotel / casino complex and have them built in Whalley near skytrain, and therefore also be able to build a strong case to create a convention centre and offices along with the condos.

This would become a true city, instead of another high density suburb, and having a strong industrial base nearby would be a huge feather in Surrey's cap.

well said. I think with Watts at the helm, there's been a different shift in thinking of Surrey's role in the region and I suspect great things are down the road.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

Apparently one of the big themes was transit inequality between Surrey and Vancouver, with people implicitly mentioning that they don't want the UBC Line to be built first. (sigh). Not this problem again. When will they ever figure out their priorities with this back and forth debate?

To be fair they should at least have a Newton-Wally-Guildford b-line up and running before they start the Broadway line. What gets me the most is people bringing up the damn interurban line and having rapid transit between newton and Langley.

[dreambrother808]

It's only fair that Surrey and Langley get rapid transit before Broadway!

Why should a densely populated area with a proven, overcrowded ridership get rapid transit first?

/s

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

Why should a densely populated area with a proven, overcrowded ridership get rapid transit first?

I've got to admit that as someone who lives in the City of Vancouver I've pretty much had this attitude too. It makes a lot of sense at least on the surface to build transit where it will get the most use, and there's no doubt in my mind that rapid transit along Broadway would get much higher ridership than anything that could possibly be built in Surrey.

And yet Surrey really is trying to change it's stripes. There's an good piece by Frances Bula in the Globe Advisor on some of the things that Surrey is trying to do. An argument could perhaps be made that spending the same amount of money on transit in Surrey has the potential to attract more new riders to transit than anything in Vancouver, and I can understand how that might be a better use of the funds.

Unfortunately Surrey is a victim of the car-oriented culture that was ascendant when most of its streets and homes were built, and the result is a built environment that is very pedestrian-unfriendly. Huge long blocks with stores spread out and hidden behind acres of parking at one end, and houses hidden away from potential transit routes behind layers of cul-de-sacs at the other. Transit is totally dependent on pedestrians, and Surrey was almost custom-designed to discourage them. Even the fastest, most frequent transit system in the world will have a hard time overcoming those obstacles.

I wish I could be more optimistic that money spent on transit would really make a big difference in ridership. If we want to change things we'll have to spend the money, but I think it's crucial to choose carefully, coordinate it with development and have realistic expectations of what it can accomplish. The very last thing we need is to spend billions and get only mediocre results - that would create a huge barrier to further investment and end up stalling us close to where we are today.

[Zassk]

The 99 and 98 B-Lines led to great increases in transit usage in their corridors, and even spurred some TOD on their own, and obviously paved the way for rapid transit. There is no reason why Surrey should not follow the same path. The 98 B-Line itself was considered significant transit infrastructure investment for Richmond at the time. I don't see why Surrey deserves to skip logical steps in this process. Surrey & its region should be able to support 2-3 B-Lines immediately, and by measuring their successes over 10 years, we can determine the priority order for rapid transit there. Meanwhile, Broadway has already gone through this process for 15 years, and there is no logical reason to delay rapid transit there, as soon as funds are available for it.

[Millennium2002]

Unfortunately the debate about growth-serving and growth-building also clouds up our priorities... with the Broadway line emphasizing more of the first (but also parts of the second due to UBC developments) and the Surrey one using primarily the second (first also a factor in some corridors). Bleh.

[twoNeurons]

Thought some would find this interesting. It's the Hankai Uemachi Line (Tramway) at Tennoji. It's built along a busy right of way, allowing 1 lane of traffic each way.


The locations is here:
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s...sQEIb7UZhhLzp4wbwHg&cbp=12,38.4,,0,13.59

Of course, most of the city is covered by subway, but there are a few overground systems as well. Of note, they have two LIM lines that use an overground 4th rail for power.

Riding the trains here makes me realize that we're really spoiled in Vancouver when it comes to frequency of service.

[GMasterAres]

The argument by Surrey about transit in Surrey isn't that the city should "skip steps." That's the problem with a lot of comments here against. What the Mayor has stated is that the issue Surrey has with Translink is that Surrey and Surrey citizens have contibuted upwards of 25% of all Translink revenues yet has seen a return of less than 10% services, upgrades, expansions, and overall benefits.

Is it 100% valid an argument? Not necessarilly but it is fairly accurate a stance. In all honesty though I think the beef isn't so much with Vancouver as it is with Burnaby.

I think the Mayor is looking simply for Translink to have some focus outside of the big 2 of Vancouver and Burnaby. The city's stance has never been "OMG WE NEED 10 SKYTRAINS BUILT AND LRT ALL OVER THE PLACE RIGHT NOW!" The stance has been "Hey we need some priorities."

The whole argument about "Well UBC is a priority line" is fine and dandy but what Surrey is saying is they ALWAYS find another priority in Vancouver/Burnaby more important than doing anything out in the 'burbs.'

It was Millenium Line before. After that was built and they would look at Surrey suddenly wait Canada Line is a priority. So ok that is built and done now so time to look at Surrey. WAIT NO it is UBC and Broadway that is a priority. Ok well there we go we built the UBC line and connections ok time for Surrey? NO WAIT zomg we need a line in downtown out to Denman. Ok so we built that new line time for Surrey right now! Wait no density on Arbutus need a line there!! Ok time for Surrey now that that is done ok no WAIT Willingdon needs a connection between the two Skytrains.

Meanwhile Evergreen is also 25 years in the waiting and hasn't broken ground.

I know I'm exagerating with the above but that is the stance the Mayor and other mayors SoF are making against Translink right now. Basically cut with the 🞵🞵🞵🞵 and at least give us the attention we DESERVE out here. That's it.

[Zassk]

Of course Surrey deserves transit improvements, but if you look at the state of the existing services, the strains are not worst in Surrey. Unfortunately, transit use has accelerated outside of Surrey faster than inside Surrey. There is also the issue that any transit expansion in Surrey requires more subsidization than transit expansion outside of Surrey. What answer is there to that? The only real answer is more money in the form of more taxation.

Ideally, I would like to see a two-pronged announcement. $200 million/year to LRT construction in Surrey and $200 million/year to incremental SkyTrain extension along Broadway, with a major segment opened for service every 5 years in both places. 15 years total.