Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[xd_1771]

Perhaps such a Fraser Highway route could be branched off to connect through Guildford. It is a potential. That way everybody's happy. The line would probably have to be built in segments due to cost, and I can see the Guildford-Whalley-Newton line happening first.

I actually had something of a concept lately and it goes like this:
Newton - Whalley - Surrey Line/Expo Line intertwined, similar to Expo/Millenium. Newton houses 120,000 people, and is a major transit hub to (downtown) Cloverdale and South Surrey.
Whalley - Guildford (beyond?) - Surrey Line only. Guildford serves 60,000 people, but is also a major transit hub to Langley, Coquitlam, and beyond.

It actually seems to make sense now, as Newton does have 2x the population of Guildford, so it is being served by a fair 2x amount of trains. Both are additionally equally important transit hubs from other distant centres.

Ideally you want to stitch Guildford, Whalley and Newton together.

That is exactly the point I am trying to make. Connect and promote intra-city movement, and support a growing city that way. Surrey is the biggest centre in the SOF and we want it to stay that way. Linking the three biggest centres in Surrey in a reliable and fast way only makes the most sense.

At points it could be elevated (maybe even run in its own ROW in the sky along parts of 104th if it's deemed an essential artery for the city).

At which point it could end up being cheaper to build a Skytrain. You could use existing trains and facilities and enjoy low operating costs. Unless of course, you plan to extend to South Surrey/etc. right away (probably not the case for quite awhile, improvements to such movements should ideally start out as BRT to build ridership)

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Cloverdale Town Centre is inconveniently located. However, the houses around there are built on large lots (60'?) and not too much density. Most of the development in Cloverdale is happening north, along the Fraser Highway, in Clayton. These people are connected better with Surrey and Langley than Cloverdale's downtown.

Compare these:


All the new development in Clayton is denser than almost all existing single Family housing in Vancouver. These houses are built on 9m wide lots.
Many of the houses also have a basement suite.
SkyTrain all the way to Langley along the Fraser Highway is interesting. To look further into this thought experiment where would you put the stations?

To be honest, I think a train to 168th could make sense. It's super easy to get to by bus from Cloverdale. For example:

The 3.9km from 184th to 168th:
By Car: 8 minutes
By Bus: 10 minutes (2 stops)
By Bicycle: 14 minutes (They've built separated bike lanes along some of the road)

One can conclude that terminating a train at 184th/186th doesn't make a lot of sense. It's pretty fast when you're traveling by bus through the ALR. It would only make sense if you're going into Langley itself. Personally, I think Langley would be better served feeding into 168th by B-Line Bus.

From 204th to 168th, it's 14 minutes by car and only 21 by bus.

Putting that in perspective, New West to Metrotown is about the same distance and it takes 14/15 minutes, allowing 1 minute on each side to access the station.

So in the end, you're only talking about a savings of around 6-8 minutes, (max 10). I personally feel that it would be an expensive proposition right now. Once other priorities are taken care of, it would be a possible extension, but just not at the moment. In addition, I think that a concentrated effort to built a commuter line along the old BCER ROW could result in some positive TOD opportunities. Building TOD around potential train stations would be a better use of cash, imho.

As for building the SkyTrain to Guildford to serve Langley people coming in as xd suggests... if they're coming in along the Fraser Highway (which many would be, as that's where the density is) getting to Guildford Mall takes exactly the same time (give or take a minute) as getting to King George SkyTrain station.

A SkyTrain to Guildford would primarily serve Guildford residents. North Surrey residents would also have a closer link to the line, but where are they going? If they're going to Coquitlam a bus along the highway makes more sense. Ideally you want to stitch Guildford, Whalley and Newton together. I see no better way to do this than a continuous LRT line between these points. At points it could be elevated (maybe even run in its own ROW in the sky along parts of 104th if it's deemed an essential artery for the city).

It has better chances of being built in complete form, it has better opportunities to be extended to South Surrey and White Rock and North Surrey, and its capacity can be dialed up to cope with demand.

I agree with you completely. When I was talking about Skytrain and 184 st, I wasn't suggesting that be where the line end, but just using it as an example of distance between two adjoining stations. Some of the complaints against Skytrain to Langley is the ALR land it crosses. I was countering that the distance between those stations wouldn't be that much more than some existing sections of the Expo and Millennium lines, sections where the train makes up time for commuters, giving it its advantage over buses. Of course I think that if you do cross the ALR land between Fleetwood and Cloverdale you extend it to Langley City.

But you can compare crossing the ALR to when Skytrain first crossed the Fraser River and the only station was at Scott Road. It closed a major bottle neck and shortened dozens of bus routes. A 184 st station would cut in half all the existing length of Cloverdale bus routes, and buses would not need to cross highway 15 at one of the worst choke points SoF.

However, I wouldn't propose extending the Expo Line until after many other projects. First I would finish up the Evergreen line, which would build up ridership on the existing Millennium line, then extend Skytrain down Broadway to at least Arbutus, hopefully UBC. That would really build up ridership on Skytrain and increase demand for transit everywhere.

But during all this, Surrey needs something. There won't be the money required to extend Skytrain, nor the ridership per KM to really justify it right off the bat.

But first I would set up B Line service on the Guildford-City Center-Newton-South Surrey Route. I also think the upcoming Rapid bus service will solve a lot of Guildford's transit problems at a very low cost. Direct Service to Lougheed will probably reduce some trips into City Center, and if the Rapid bus service goes into City Center (which I think it will) it will really help with the current demand. As well, the SFPR will take slower moving truck traffic off 104 ave, increasing the on time performance and speed of buses on the corridor.

If ridership suggests, I would actually build LRT down King George to Newton first. Newton is ready for TOD. There is space for a new town center, and the city already has plans. King George is also wide enough to build LRT without having to perform major road construction and buying properties. There is also a lot of underused land along King George that could be TOD, and LRT stations could really fuel growth and development. Guildford is mostly built out, and Newton is still growing exponentially, with potential for more. It deserve the first shot at Rapid Transit as it is most suitable for the most TOD.

This also adds the potential for the BCER to be used for commuter rail. Passengers could transfer at Newton and ride LRT into the City Center without having to ride the commuter train all the way around Surrey to Scott Road first. It would really help create Surrey City Center as the SOF downtown.

The commuter rail would then generate even higher pockets of density around Langley City and greater demand for transit services away from the line, much like how WCE has really fueled growth around Coquitlam center.

This demand and growth east of highway 15 could justify providing a Skytrain connection. Extending Skytrain into Langley will connect more homes to the regional backbone and really cement Surrey City center as the SoF downtown and also provide regional accessibility to as many people as possible with one construction project.

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Poco is a 1-stop short jump from Coquitlam Station. A spur in Poco makes sense... It's only about 2000m away. However, Poco is already served by the West Coast Express and so I think there are other priorities.

Maple Ridge, I agree.

In addition, bus travel between PoCo and Coquitlam center is complicated at best. Most buses aren't a direct, short trip, and get stuck in traffic on Lougheed. Riding the 160 from PoCo Station to Coquitlam Station takes about 20 minutes. Rides from the SFH areas of PoMo to Coquitlam Station take 35 minutes and 3 transfers. Rides from the business park on Broadway street to Coquitlam station takes 55 minutes.

Of course the routes will be improved when Evergreen opens, but the geographic isolation of PoMo presents some challenges to operating an efficient and fast bus network that connects to Coquitlam station. Kingsway, Shaughnessy, and Lougheed highway represent some serious travel bottle necks out of the area that Skytrain could easily overcome with a 3km extension.

But it might make more sense to introduce a LRT line from Coquitlam to the far edge of PoCo to bring rapid transit to that business park, depending on how far you want to extend it and on potential demand.

[twoNeurons]

That is exactly the point I am trying to make. Connect and promote intra-city movement, and support a growing city that way. Surrey is the biggest centre in the SOF and we want it to stay that way. Linking the three biggest centres in Surrey in a reliable and fast way only makes the most sense.

At which point it could end up being cheaper to build a Skytrain. You could use existing trains and facilities and enjoy low operating costs. Unless of course, you plan to extend to South Surrey/etc. right away (probably not the case for quite awhile, improvements to such movements should ideally start out as BRT to build ridership)

I'm not suggesting an elevated line, only saying that it's possible to have both with LRT.... whereas with SkyTrain it must be completely separated. It wouldn't be something I would suggest... but it is doable if absolutely deemed necessary.

LRT between Guildford would be Reliable and fast. It's ONLY 3.5km!!! We're talking 7-8 minutes here. How much time do you think SkyTrain would save? 120 seconds? The US average for LRT is about 32km/h for new LRT including stops.

[xd_1771]

Non-peak a Guildford-Whalley bus will get you there in about 15-20 minutes... 20-30 minutes into the peak on the faster routes. An LRT would not be significantly faster than a bus driving on the non-peak hours; 104th is by no means like King George Highway, it is a lot narrower and a lot slower by nature; I don't see how a 32km/h average would be possible. A Skytrain would actually provide a very noticeable benefit. When you're trying to connect the Guildford area with other places such as Newton, in a city that is the largest in the SOF and may soon grow bigger than the city of Vancouver, the time adds up significantly and so does the need for capacity. With the short distance required, building a Skytrain line would be cheap, perhaps just as cheap, and the better choice for handling future traffic demands.

Sure, the RapidBus is going to allow better Guildford access to everywhere but is it going to help out Guildford's access to the rest of the city of Surrey? A change of perspective is needed. Guildford is not a Coquitlam town centre, it is a Surrey town centre. It happens to be one of the biggest three and this may continue as the new highway & transit developments attract more people into new higher-density developments that are being both proposed and built; in the past few years several high-density condominium & apartment developments have been built on the southeast & southwest corners of this centre, and these developments can and will keep coming. Many areas are being rezoned and redeveloped into such buidings. The same is happening, very rapidly, with Newton: a town centre that is twice the size but also twice the distance. The biggest three centres should be connected with the best and fastest form of transit immediately, as it would promote inter-city movement and significantly speed up the "growing" of this city.

Clayton Heights is a very residentially focused area so it seems but is it anywhere near a major town centre close to a quickly growing city? If one wants to focus on getting these communities quick access to everywhere else via transit then a good way to start off would be with a RapidBus service that scales Highway 15 perhaps. Clayton Heights, Langley, and other similar areas are on the very edge of metro Vancouver. There is nothing suitable beyond them that is close enough to make such a place worth being a major transit hub. Abbotsford perhaps, but that is a city much farther and more of a city in itself, that would be better served by a commuter rail line. I would put the improvements first where they are needed the most, where the area is already built up, and there are places beyond that can be served as well. To build rapid transit to these centres right away, while missing major centres that need them the most, would be building on the needs of these centres, but that is it. Whereas if you build to those other centres like Newton & Guildford, you are still also building on the needs of many places beyond it.

An LRT to Newton is a very long distance of 7km. I'm betting that LRT would not succeed at getting commuter passengers off the train at Newton & fail at promoting more business development on King George Highway, because lopping around to Scott Road station & taking the Skytrain south is probably a faster alternative or is just as fast. The LRT route would take 15 minutes to travel the King George Highway. The alternate route is 10km by commuter rail and 3.5 on skytrain; since the commuter rail is nonstop, at an average speed of 70km/h (80km/h counting acceleration & deceleration) that takes less than 10 minutes; Skytrain's 3.5km at avg. 45km/h takes just less than 5 minutes. 15 minutes - just as fast, maybe faster. You're also riding on a train that probably doesn't include all those Newton-Whalley travellers - 120,000 people live in Newton. Meanwhile, a Newton-Whalley Skytrain on direct route takes less than 10 minutes.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Non-peak a Guildford-Whalley bus will get you there in about 15-20 minutes... 20-30 minutes into the peak on the faster routes. An LRT would not be significantly faster than a bus driving on the non-peak hours; 104th is by no means like King George Highway, it is a lot narrower and a lot slower by nature; I don't see how a 32km/h average would be possible. A Skytrain would actually provide a very noticeable benefit.

Portland Max average speed is 32km/h, and that counts stops and its trip through Portland's downtown core. Surrey LRT could probably match that with dedicated lanes and priority signalling over such a short distance with not major cross streets besides 152 and King George. Phoenix LRT averages around 40km/h but has more segregation. But for the sake of argument, lets say LRT would do 25km/h on 104 ave.

Lets say for a length 4 km, Skytrain would do that in 5.3 minutes. LRT would do it in 9.6 minutes. For more than double the price you are saving Guildford residents 4.3 minutes.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

When you're trying to connect the Guildford area with other places such as Newton, in a city that is the largest in the SOF and may soon grow bigger than the city of Vancouver, the time adds up significantly and so does the need for capacity. With the short distance required, building a Skytrain line would be cheap, perhaps just as cheap, and the better choice for handling future traffic demands.

Yeah, but the distances don't get any longer. It will always be about 4km between Guildford and City Center, no mater how big Surrey gets.

However, Guildford is on the edge of the city, with almost no possibility of expansion in that direction.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Sure, the RapidBus is going to allow better Guildford access to everywhere but is it going to help out Guildford's access to the rest of the city of Surrey?

How is Skytrain different in doing this than LRT, or even just improved bus service to Guildford? What I was saying about Rapid Bus, is that the increased capacity this will bring for regional travelers will result in more local capacity for residents of Guildford to City Center.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

A change of perspective is needed. Guildford is not a Coquitlam town centre, it is a Surrey town centre. It happens to be one of the biggest three and this may continue as the new highway & transit developments attract more people into new higher-density developments that are being both proposed and built; in the past few years several high-density condominium & apartment developments have been built on the southeast & southwest corners of this centre, and these developments can and will keep coming. Many areas are being rezoned and redeveloped into such buidings. The same is happening, very rapidly, with Newton: a town centre that is twice the size but also twice the distance. The biggest three centres should be connected with the best and fastest form of transit immediately, as it would promote inter-city movement and significantly speed up the "growing" of this city.

Being one of the biggest 3 town centers out of 5 is not much of a brag.

It is also the only one on its own Corridor. 104 only leads to Guildford, providing less opportunities for expansion in the future, and few potential riders.

Fraser Highway brings Skytrain closer to Fleetwood and Cloverdale (and the rest of the Valley). Those 2 town centers combined are twice the population. KGB leads to Newton and South Surrey.

Guildford also has the least potential. You might think Guildford is dense, but only around a mall where a small portion of its population lives. Most is scattered to the north and stretches all the way east to Langley. When you compare that to the relatively smaller size to Fleetwood, Guildford looks less appealing.

Land around the mall being rezoned is nothing compared to the vast already empty lots around Newton, Cloverdale, and South Surrey. Guildford has the least potential for Skytrain based TOD. The commercial properties along 104 ave would benefit much better from having community focused LRT.

You also have to look at the travel demands and distance. How many people would really ride from Newton to Guildford (and vice versa). Most travels will be between City Center and the others. So you are building a fast transit system that really only caters to the smallest subset of travelers.

But even the full line would be around 10km, and the difference between Skytrain and LRT would be 18 vs 13 minutes (assuming 32km/h average for LRT).

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Clayton Heights is a very residentially focused area so it seems but is it anywhere near a major town centre close to a quickly growing city? If one wants to focus on getting these communities quick access to everywhere else via transit then a good way to start off would be with a RapidBus service that scales Highway 15 perhaps.

Highway 15 is a N/S route, it doesn't bring you closer to anything. It would be the worst bus route. Where would it come from, where would it go? Now you are just reaching for straws to support your position

Cloverdale has a similar population to Guildford, but focused along the Fraser highway. And as TwoNeurons pointed out, much of it is tightly packed in on small lots, unlike the sprawl of Fraser heights.

And because it is further away from the city, that makes it more attractive for Skytrain. The further you get away, the more Skytrain shows its speed advantage.

Skytrain to Guildford might save the residents there a minute or two off their commutes, but Skytrain to Cloverdale would save the residents there (of which there are just as many) about an hour compared to current bus routes. The more ground you can get Skytrain to cover, the bigger the advantage. The advantage to Guildford is so small compared to what can be accomplished elsewhere.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Clayton Heights, Langley, and other similar areas are on the very edge of metro Vancouver. There is nothing suitable beyond them that is close enough to make such a place worth being a major transit hub. Abbotsford perhaps, but that is a city much farther and more of a city in itself, that would be better served by a commuter rail line. I would put the improvements first where they are needed the most, where the area is already built up, and there are places beyond that can be served as well. To build rapid transit to these centres right away, while missing major centres that need them the most, would be building on the needs of these centres, but that is it. Whereas if you build to those other centres like Newton & Guildford, you are still also building on the needs of many places beyond it.

A station in Langley city would be surrounded by a huge population, much more than Guildford.

A station at Guildford mall will be NO CLOSER to almost every other Surrey and Langley resident than King George Station is today. A Guildford Skytrain line only serves the residents of Guildford. At best it can shave a few minutes off an already hour long bus ride for Langley residents. That is not a transit improvement for most people in the Fraser Valley.

Now I do agree that Guildford and Newton can use near term transit improvements. The Skytrain to Langley I endorse wouldn't be for years. Surrey needs something sooner, and noone can afford to build Skytrain in that timeframe while other, even more important projects (Evergreen Line and Broadway) are being done. So if Surrey wants something to serve its residents in 2 fairly close town centers to facilitate local travel, then LRT is a logical choice. It can be built out at a relatively lower cost to accomodate Surrey's local town centers while we wait for more money to be available to build regional transit.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

An LRT to Newton is a very long distance of 7km. I'm betting that LRT would not succeed at getting commuter passengers off the train at Newton & fail at promoting more business development on King George Highway, because lopping around to Scott Road station & taking the Skytrain south is probably a faster alternative or is just as fast. The LRT route would take 15 minutes to travel the King George Highway. The alternate route is 10km by commuter rail and 3.5 on skytrain; since the commuter rail is nonstop, at an average speed of 70km/h (80km/h counting acceleration & deceleration) that takes less than 10 minutes; Skytrain's 3.5km at avg. 45km/h takes just less than 5 minutes. 15 minutes - just as fast, maybe faster. You're also riding on a train that probably doesn't include all those Newton-Whalley travellers - 120,000 people live in Newton. Meanwhile, a Newton-Whalley Skytrain on direct route takes less than 10 minutes.

Portland operates a commuter rail service from Beaverton to Wilsonville that links to MAX LRT outside Portland's downtown and works quite well.

There is no way they would let the trains travel at 80km/h through Surrey. The line crosses too many major roads. Next, there would be stations if there was a rail line through Surrey, as there are potential transfer points along the line and several employment centers. The train would not be non stop between Newton and Scott Road; I see at least 2 or 3 good station locations. The speed limit and extra stops (which commuter trains spend longer at than LRT) would mean the average speed would be less than 70km/h.

But lets say it does take 10 minutes. Then to ride the Skytrain back into the city center is another 6 minutes. That's about a 20 minute ride with transfer. LRT down KGB at 30km/h average would be a 12 minute ride, or 16 minutes with transfer. The difference might not be that much in theory, but it is there. The LRT would also have better spaced stops around places like the hospital and new businesses along KGB than Skytrain. Oh, and did I mention it is cheaper?

But perhaps you are right, maybe Skytrain is called for down KGB to save a couple minutes. There are far more people down there than Guildford, that's for sure. But that still does nothing to convince me spending the money for a spur to Guildford is worth it at all.

[xd_1771]

For more than double the price you are saving Guildford residents 4.3 minutes.

Lie. You would be saving a significant amount of money in the long term due to significantly lower operating costs and little need to buy new trains, and the ability to use existing maintenance depots. I have pointed out on the other page how an LRT might actually end up costing more for everybody involved in funding.

However, Guildford is on the edge of the city, with almost no possibility of expansion in that direction.

Guildford may be on the edge of the city but you are not lying directly at the edge of the metro. There is plenty of expansion space as well. There's plenty of space to develop, such as around the new 4-laned 96th avenue - most of which is currently rural residential, but can be redeveloped. In addition at the east end is Port Kells, a major industrial hub for the SOF. Slightly east is Walnut Grove, another big residential area.

It is also the only one on its own Corridor. 104 only leads to Guildford, providing less opportunities for expansion in the future, and few potential riders.

You are severely underestimating the role of 104th then. 104th is Surrey's primary connection to virtually everywhere to the east. It is the road that connects to the major Trans Canada Highway, from where you can reach Langley (200th St), Cloverdale (via Hwy 15), Maple Ridge/Pitt Meadows, or if you do so wish Abbostford. I believe it was earlier mentioned that a significant portion of 104th traffic comes from the highway. A dedicated lane on the Highway is even being given up to exit onto 104th.

No more than a thousand or a few thousand live in the rural residential area to the east. It is very, very sparsely populated. The area to the north of Fraser Heights is actually well populated and well connected to Guildford. When you consider where the population actually is, it's not very big of an area overall. The highway cutting through perhaps makes the area a bit more confusing.

A Highway 15 N/S bus route could intently serve the areas of Cloverdale & Clayton Heights very well if one wishes to link these centres with whatever is beyond. The same goes for a BRT line that takes you via Newton. You would be saving just as much time as a striaght through Fraser Highway route; the route, as pointed out in another thread, would not be any longer. In addition, you are serving city centres that actually need expanded transit right now and the most.

How many people would really ride from Newton to Guildford (and vice versa). Most travels will be between City Center and the others.

Guildford TC is the largest mall in the SOF... it is among the largest in BC. It is the closest and biggest option for the majority of the city of Surrey, and it is being expanded further. There are many other nearby amenities worth going to in Guildford such as a large movie theatre. Making this easily accessible to the city of Surrey can and will prove very popular. There's a reason many people in the lower mainland will travel long distances to access a mall such as Metrotown.

I can agree that Skytrain can very effectively show its speed on long distances but the way we tout Skytrain it is still more of an urban form of transportation. Are there really any places going to that are worth serving other than residents?

A station in Langley city would be surrounded by a huge population, much more than Guildford.

Keep in mind Langley is also spread out into distinct centres. Some 25,000 or more now live in the area of Walnut Grove and the most accessible option to them is Guildford. That's a quarter of the township population. Many of the new developments in Langley are situated on the north side, in which case rapid transit via either Fraser Highway or Highway 1 through Guildford would have no time difference.

Once the RapidBus comes in I can see why a lot of people in Langley will move to this as their primary rapid transit connection with the City of Surrey and the rest of the Metro. A lot of people drive Fraser Highway or ride transit on the Fraser Highway (502) to skip Highway 1 traffic. With the upcoming improvements, that will no longer be the case.

There is no way they would let the trains travel at 80km/h through Surrey. The line crosses too many major roads. Next, there would be stations if there was a rail line through Surrey, as there are potential transfer points along the line and several employment centers. The train would not be non stop between Newton and Scott Road; I see at least 2 or 3 good station locations. The speed limit and extra stops (which commuter trains spend longer at than LRT) would mean the average speed would be less than 70km/h.

Here I may have been caught, there does indeed seem to be at least one good station on the way (Nordel). On a majority of the railway past here and just before here there aren't too many intersections, and travelling at a higher speed may indeed be feasible.

But lets say it does take 10 minutes.

Some of the numbers are wrong. The total distance between Scott Rd & Surrey Central is 3.5km. There is only one station on the way. Going by the 45km/h end-to-end average this would take less than 5 minutes. Because there is only one station on the way, the average speed in that section is likely higher... so you are looking at 3 minutes time. Whether you stay on the train to Scott Road or get off at Newton, you are still transferring either way; when you get to Scott Road, the Skytrain arrives very quickly, likely more frequently than such an LRT. The distance of LRT from Whalley-Newton is 7km. At 30km/h average, that is closer to 15 minutes time. In addition, for the majority of the way, while you are still on the interurban train, you can stretch your legs as there aren't any other travel movements sharing the route.

[Whalleyboy]

first guildford is not in the top three for most populated communties. YOu can't just put direct line between guildford and central. It will not justify the cost in anyway. Also your pricing in so bad you can't create a whole new line and not by new trains. especially of one that you propose. on top of that there would be no room to store the amount of cars need to serve that route. also well yes walnut grove has alot of people places like brooksville is an older and well built up are that is on the opposite side of langley township

I would love to see skytrain to guildford but hey its just not gonna happen. it is not justifiable. I'm more voting for skytraint to langley but i'd prefer my one person route that would go through newton then follow interurban to 64th then 64th to fraser then goes into the city centre. i post a map in another thread but its here http://maps.google.ca/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl...22.771873&spn=0.143701,0.302811&t=h&z=12. its only about 5 km more this why then via fraser hwy

[xd_1771]

It doesn't seem like a half bad idea but it is not maintaining the focus of putting Surrey and inter-Surrey movement first.

Put the Evergreen Line into perspective. It serves a very similar amount of people on either end as well as in between and is getting built. Granted, Port Moody is no Surrey, but you can see how it is very similar. Coquitlam itself houses 120,000 people, spread out from the area the line encompasses, including the Lougheed Town Ctr. area. Port Moody, 28000. Nearby Port Coquitlam (connected via WCE), 55000. I'd estimate some 220,000 to 250,000 when the Burnaby side of Lougheed (along with SFU) is counted. With this full Skytrain line that even involves an expensive tunnel and is being built first, you are serving a similar amount of people that a Newton-Whalley-Guildford line serves. In addition, there are many similarities: Coquitlam serves as a hub to Port Coquitlam, Pitt Meadows and Maple Ridge, similar to how Guildford and Newton work in tandem to serve Cloverdale, South Surrey and Langley. A Newton-Whalley-Guildford line would be responsible for directly connecting 280,000 people - perhaps more than the numbers of Evergreen Line. It is similar to Coquitlam in that there are universities to serve (SFU Surrey, on the line, as well as Kwantlen Polytechnic, which is west of Newton) and two major malls are linked.

Why you don't think people would take advantage of a line to come to Guildford is quite preposterous; at Guildford is the largest mall in the SOF (and don't think people won't be coming to visit here, the concepts I have seen show an expanded mall that is big and quite beautiful and attractive), one of the largest (and in turn, most accessible) movie theatres in SOF, the Sheraton which has often been used as a convention centre, a rec centre & library, and many other businesses - a majority of which have recently just opened. Sure, a lot of people don't go there, but is there any reason why that would stay the same? Making such amenities easily accessible to the rest of the City of Surrey (as well as serving 60,000 Guildford residents and others who may be beyond) should actually be considered a priority.

A Bombardier Mk II train is $2 million/train according to this link (the costs have probably not increased significantly since 2007; the trains are mostly the same). Still 3 times as less than a Bombardier Flexity Outlook, as calculated from here.

[logan5]

Anybody know how much Skytrain costs per km when it's at grade?

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Non-peak a Guildford-Whalley bus will get you there in about 15-20 minutes... 20-30 minutes into the peak on the faster routes.

Google Maps has this trip at between 6 and 10 minutes, depending on time of day. This is on the 501 bus (comes from Langley, I believe).

An LRT would not be significantly faster than a bus driving on the non-peak hours; 104th is by no means like King George Highway, it is a lot narrower and a lot slower by nature; I don't see how a 32km/h average would be possible.

Dedicated lanes and more opportunities for traffic control. You can travel quickly when there's no one in your lane. I'd probably hazard a guess that LRT could match the evening bus at 6 minutes.

A Skytrain would actually provide a very noticeable benefit.

Well, SkyTrain columns would definitely be very noticeable.

As for average speed. SkyTrain averages 44.6 km/h on the Expo Line.

Between
King George / Scott Road: 42.6
King George / Gateway: 31.9
Surrey Central / Scott Road: 47.7

I don't think anyone doubts the advantages of SkyTrain. In addition to the speed advantage, it is automated and usually runs more frequently. However, what is being questioned is
1) Is it really worth it?
2) Does it fit Surrey?

I'm not sure on the 1st... I'd have to see any formal studies done. As for the second, I see far more potential for expansion, parallel lines and a better overall system with LRT.

I would put the improvements first where they are needed the most, where the area is already built up, and there are places beyond that can be served as well. To build rapid transit to these centres right away, while missing major centres that need them the most, would be building on the needs of these centres, but that is it. Whereas if you build to those other centres like Newton & Guildford, you are still also building on the needs of many places beyond it.

I think most people agree that Newton and Guildford need rapid transit, that's why most people feel that LRT is necessary. Don't get fixated on the technology choice. In the end, rapid transit can be implemented by many different technologies, from dedicated elevated busways like in Xiamen, China　and Nagoya to HSST Mag-lev in Aichi, Japan.

An LRT to Newton is a very long distance of 7km. I'm betting that LRT would not succeed at getting commuter passengers off the train at Newton & fail at promoting more business development on King George Highway, because looping around to Scott Road station & taking the Skytrain south is probably a faster alternative or is just as fast.

First of all, commuter rail and LRT are two different things. Commuter rail (in Vancouver) is a more premium product, runs less frequently and is aimed at long-distance commuters.

2nd of all... they complement each other. That's why the Evergreen line is still being built between Port Moody and Coquitlam.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Lets say for a length 4 km, Skytrain would do that in 5.3 minutes. LRT would do it in 9.6 minutes. For more than double the price you are saving Guildford residents 4.3 minutes.

The biggest benefit of Skytrain or another grade-separated technology isn't the shorter travel times (although it is a nice benefit) - the real win is higher frequency service. Automation lets you run high frequency service all the time for no extra cost - that can make a huge difference in ridership.

Frankly, with Surrey's built environment so skewed toward automobiles I can't really see the local ridership justifying the cost of Skytrain - at least not until new development starts to correct the damage. But I think it's important to understand what the relevant factors are.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The biggest benefit of Skytrain or another grade-separated technology isn't the shorter travel times (although it is a nice benefit) - the real win is higher frequency service. Automation lets you run high frequency service all the time for no extra cost - that can make a huge difference in ridership.

Frankly, with Surrey's built environment so skewed toward automobiles I can't really see the local ridership justifying the cost of Skytrain - at least not until new development starts to correct the damage. But I think it's important to understand what the relevant factors are.

Thus why I think right now the only way it would make sense to justify would be to extend it out towards Langley. Another benefit of higher frequency service is for rush-hour commuters. Trains get full and more frequent trains means less time before you can get on one to get to work. There is a reason why when you look at transit ridership during rush-hour, the more transfers you add the more drastic the drop off in ridership. When you move away from Skytrain you deal with the bus lines and they get full quicker and have far less frequent service which just pisses people off and they jump in their car. B-Lines help in this regard because it is higher frequency higher capacity than standard busses.

But in Surrey you're absolutely right that the car centric nature would probably result in less ridership within the city itself making a line from Newton to Central to Guildford just overkill I think money wise to return wise. So the only chance would be a line out to Langley to at least service the commuter since a lot of people in langley commute to Surrey/Burnaby/Vancouver. Those going North already have a route in the Golden Ears Bridge.

The cost would be more justified since you'd have less elevated build that way, less distance to go, less property density to deal with, and then it would give a good backbone to even more-so develop Surrey Central.

Right now Surrey Central is the end of Metro Vancouver from a transit look. It isn't central, it isn't really a downtown. It is just where you get to when you get "to the end." If you extend out to Langley then suddenly Surrey becomes a central hub regionally. It encourages development around the hub even more because you have people coming from the west (Vancouver/Burnaby/New West) and people coming from the East (East Surrey/Langley). It just seems to click in my brain that this would make the most sense. Again though I'm not an engineer or planner so I could be way off.

[GMasterAres]

I'll take a debate-shot at your lengthy post:

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Lie. You would be saving a significant amount of money in the long term due to significantly lower operating costs and little need to buy new trains, and the ability to use existing maintenance depots. I have pointed out on the other page how an LRT might actually end up costing more for everybody involved in funding.

I'd have to agree with you there. I think the LRT idea in Surrey is a dream and an attept to put pressure on Translink. Surrey needs something and it needs something fast. Watching Translink with Evergreen taking 10+ years even to start talking about funding let alone build the damned thing, and Surrey is scared as it should be. If I was a betting man I'd put more rapid transit expansion in Surrey by Translink in the 20+ year range and it simply can't afford to wait.

So ultimately our Mayor is trying to put pressure and push the agenda in their faces. Basically if Translink doesn't start looking and doing something fast, we'll do it! Logistically though I think the proposal is just a dream or a concept and wouldn't take that form because of the points you made.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Guildford may be on the edge of the city but you are not lying directly at the edge of the metro. There is plenty of expansion space as well. There's plenty of space to develop, such as around the new 4-laned 96th avenue - most of which is currently rural residential, but can be redeveloped. In addition at the east end is Port Kells, a major industrial hub for the SOF. Slightly east is Walnut Grove, another big residential area.

Being a long term resident, I actually feel that Guildford and Fleetwood are right now the best centers in Surrey to be redeveloped densely. Guildford I'd put at top tied next to Newton. Fleetwood I'd put second. So I agree with you there. Not to mention you point out a very simple geographicl fact. Surrey is at the edge from a transit standpoint but from a regional standpoint it is actually fairly center. With all teh development happening south of Fraser, Surrey Center geographically is a lot more central to all of Metro Vancouver than Downtown Vancouver itself is. People just have to pop up Google Earth and center on Surrey Central to see this little fact.

So again /agree.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

You are severely underestimating the role of 104th then. 104th is Surrey's primary connection to virtually everywhere to the east. It is the road that connects to the major Trans Canada Highway, from where you can reach Langley (200th St), Cloverdale (via Hwy 15), Maple Ridge/Pitt Meadows, or if you do so wish Abbostford. I believe it was earlier mentioned that a significant portion of 104th traffic comes from the highway. A dedicated lane on the Highway is even being given up to exit onto 104th.

Here I differ a bit. I wouldn't put 104th as being the primary connection to virtually everywhere. I'd actually put 104th in a tie with 96th and Fraser Highway. All 3 are vital East-West corridors for various reasons. If you're going to Langley it is actually smarter and more efficient to take Fraser Highway for example. Taking 104th is not that smart because when you hit the highway and get to 200th you are actually quite a bit North of Langley itself and we all know how crappy 200th is to travel on once you hit 64th.

Once Fraser Highway is widened it will be light-years faster to get to Langley than taking 104th. Even right now it can be depending on traffic at 176th. Not to mention Fraser Highway too connects via 176th to Cloverdale and 152nd to South Surrey/Fraser Heights. So personally I tend to see Fraser Highway as being more vital. Population wise though 96th and 104th are as important in slightly different ways to me.

With widening of 96th also keep in mind that is as quick if not quicker from Surrey central to get to Golden Ears.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

No more than a thousand or a few thousand live in the rural residential area to the east. It is very, very sparsely populated. The area to the north of Fraser Heights is actually well populated and well connected to Guildford. When you consider where the population actually is, it's not very big of an area overall. The highway cutting through perhaps makes the area a bit more confusing.

Not sure if you're referencing Cloverdale. If so then I agree, Cloverdale is to me quite sparsely populated. I don't agree though if you are mentioning East Clayton. The construction going on there is mind boggling and in 10 years it will have a population rivalling Guildford. Easy. They cram 95+ townhouses into 1 acre there density wise and at any given time are building 5 townhouse complexes at the same time or 80 row-houses. It also has a lot of land.

Langley itself though around the center bypass area and Willowbrook is densifying and there are some high-rises on the books. So its population is growing. Langley though has a big traffic problem so I think it suffers more from that than anything. I don't have population numbers in front of me though but you are on the mark that there is less people. I hope you're taking into count growth though. 2 of the fastest growing areas in Surrey are Fraser Heights and East Clayton. Fleetwood is growing quite a bit too as with South Surrey. Newton is actually fairly flat growth wise and Guildford is not growing much either compared to the previously mentioned areas. Both Newton and Guildford are at the stage where they simply need to start densifying. More 4-5 storey condos, more high-rises. The other areas are going to see a flood of townhouses and row-houses though which spread like wildfire and will out-pace densification.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

A Highway 15 N/S bus route could intently serve the areas of Cloverdale & Clayton Heights very well if one wishes to link these centres with whatever is beyond. The same goes for a BRT line that takes you via Newton. You would be saving just as much time as a striaght through Fraser Highway route; the route, as pointed out in another thread, would not be any longer. In addition, you are serving city centres that actually need expanded transit right now and the most.

Ageed. This is why I have been kind of set on the notion of Skytrain extension down Fraser Highway. It gives you N/S cross connects like you've mentioned. Station at Clayton and run a route from there down to Cloverdale/South Surrey. Station at 152nd and run a line from Guildford to the station then to Fraser Height/South Surrey. Station at KGB, run a line south to Newton. Guildford would just be an east line down 104th or 108th or something.

To me Skytrain swooping back up to 104th, along, then down 152nd just be too expensive for not to mention I don't think it would be in the spirit of the Skytrain being a regional connector more than inter-city connector.

Then again the point that a line to Guildford connecting to an LRT that would run the highway to 200th then down could be made for sure. I haven't really thought about that too much but it could be argued validly I think. Run N/S from 176th connecting to Clayton then Cloverdale then South Surrey. Run N/S from Guildford to Fleetwood to Fraser Heights to South Surrey. Run N/S down 200th connecting Walnut Grove to Langley. Have the line along the highway. For 1 it would probably be fairly cheap to run a line along existing highway which is aleady a transportation corridor.

So I could see that for sure. It is a good point.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Guildford TC is the largest mall in the SOF... it is among the largest in BC. It is the closest and biggest option for the majority of the city of Surrey, and it is being expanded further. There are many other nearby amenities worth going to in Guildford such as a large movie theatre. Making this easily accessible to the city of Surrey can and will prove very popular. There's a reason many people in the lower mainland will travel long distances to access a mall such as Metrotown.

Good point and I agree. My ultimate expansion would be Skytrain looping to Guildford then heading towards Langley in some fashion. Cost wise though I still think regionally the best we would ever get would be down Fraser Highway. I do want to be proven wrong though. When expo expansion to Guildford then 168th was first announced it made the most sense to me and I was all for it. Translink though is difficult to trust and we need something now.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I can agree that Skytrain can very effectively show its speed on long distances but the way we tout Skytrain it is still more of an urban form of transportation. Are there really any places going to that are worth serving other than residents?

True.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Keep in mind Langley is also spread out into distinct centres. Some 25,000 or more now live in the area of Walnut Grove and the most accessible option to them is Guildford. That's a quarter of the township population. Many of the new developments in Langley are situated on the north side, in which case rapid transit via either Fraser Highway or Highway 1 through Guildford would have no time difference.

True. I'd argue though we'd want them to travel south along 200th to Langley center forcing Langley to also do some densification rather than pushing them to Surrey if we're thinking regionally. From a Surrey standpoint though it would make sense to get those people coming to Guildford or Surrey Central.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Once the RapidBus comes in I can see why a lot of people in Langley will move to this as their primary rapid transit connection with the City of Surrey and the rest of the Metro. A lot of people drive Fraser Highway or ride transit on the Fraser Highway (502) to skip Highway 1 traffic. With the upcoming improvements, that will no longer be the case.

Possible.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Here I may have been caught, there does indeed seem to be at least one good station on the way (Nordel). On a majority of the railway past here and just before here there aren't too many intersections, and travelling at a higher speed may indeed be feasible.

I think this was in response to interurban discussion. I think the interurban is like Vancouver street cars. A nice to have project, but not something you can base major transportation around. I'll leave it at that.

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Some of the numbers are wrong. The total distance between Scott Rd & Surrey Central is 3.5km. There is only one station on the way. Going by the 45km/h end-to-end average this would take less than 5 minutes. Because there is only one station on the way, the average speed in that section is likely higher... so you are looking at 3 minutes time. Whether you stay on the train to Scott Road or get off at Newton, you are still transferring either way; when you get to Scott Road, the Skytrain arrives very quickly, likely more frequently than such an LRT. The distance of LRT from Whalley-Newton is 7km. At 30km/h average, that is closer to 15 minutes time. In addition, for the majority of the way, while you are still on the interurban train, you can stretch your legs as there aren't any other travel movements sharing the route.

Again this is I think in reference to the interurban. Like I said above, I think it is a nice to have. It can't be the basis for a major line though not as a priority. It would make sense to make it a line out to Newton, Cloverdale, Langley. But I don't think it should be touted as a major commuter route. Not regionally. It is too slow and too infrequent let alone speed wise it just doesn't make sense. If I lived in Langley and wanted to get to Skytrain I'd just as soon drive Fraser Highway and park at KGB than take an interurban line. It would be quicker. Hell the bus from Willowbrook would be quicker.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Then don't you think we should be working to try and change Translink's mind?
It's do-able perhaps if enough people are gathered

Yes and no. Have to apply pressure on translink and try to change their mind but at the same time can't simply wait around. Surrey has to plan for worst cast scenario which is do it itself.

[GMasterAres]

Ok I'll respond specifically to the interurban line.

I'm not sure why people are so high on the interurban. Here are the realities of the interurban line.

1. It isn't a double line so you would have to more than likely expand it to be a double line. That means property aquisitions since it is narrow through some very hilly areas built up with residences on either side. It would also pose difficulty in Newton itself being widened.

2. Let's say you leave it a single line. Then frequency isn't worth anything. That means you have to double line it more than likely.

3. Speed wise, there isn't a chance you would reach anything near 70km/h average. I'd venture your average would be closer to the 45km mark and probably slower. Why? You go through some major residential centers. Not to mention again the area is very hilly compared to the WCE which is basically completely flat. LRT trains don't deal with hills very well and if you want proof, just go over to 96th and hang out at the tracks until a train climbing from the base of Scott Road goes by. You'll be able to walk faster than it is going chugging up that hill. And those trains aren't any heavier than a fully loaded commuter train would be.

4. Transit type. I hear a lot of people compare the interurban to the WCE. Well that's probably fairly accurate but at the same time is the WCE the best solution even for Coquitlam? No. Why would they be building the Evergreen then? I mean Evergreen will connect Coquitlam to Vancouver via Skytrain when the WCE already does that. Simple answer. The purpose of the WCE is to go long distance and get people from point A (suburbs Coquitlam beyond) to point B, Downtown Vancouver. Same would have to be true of the interurban. It would have to be getting people from point A (Suburbs) to Point B (Central Surrey or Vancouver). That would remove it from being a city based line though and I thought the whole argument about transit in Surrey was to not simply get people through Surrey but actually encourage growth. The purpose of Interurban would do just that. Get people through Surrey not TO Surrey.

5. If it because a Surrey connector for people to simply commute along the line like a street car/LRT system then it couldn't qualify as a commuter line because the speed would just be too slow.

6. Where it goes. It simply doesn't hit any population areas really. I like how a lot of people jump up and down saying Newtown has a population of 120,000 people. It does. But it is extremely spread out. Look on a map. Newton is the size of Burnaby. All of Burnaby, which has a population of almost 300,000 btw. So density wise it is quite vast. I grew up in Newton and trust me I don't think it is really worth rapid transit of any sort at this time especially Skytrain or anything meant to move a lot of people. That's just a myth. Don't let population numbers blind you to density realities. So outside of Newton you have what? Cloverdale and then Langley. You don't hit Fraser Heights at all with the interurban. You don't hit East Clayton. You don't hit South Surrey. Realistically 70% of the interurban is farmland in the ALR. So again this lends itself to being simply put a long range commuter line going from point A (Langley) to point B (Vancouver).

7. Based on the above, the ONLY thing I could see the interurban being used for would be a line connecting to Abbotsford Airport eventually. That to me would make more sense. You would achieve higher average speeds and you would make the airport more accessible not to mention Abbotsford. You would also then link Surrey central area to the Airport making Surrey central that much more attractive as a downtown center.

So do I think interurban has its place? Sure. Should it be an alternative to Skytrain? Not a chance. Should it be an alternative to city centric LRT or B-lines? Not a chance. But people need to really stop making it out to be some holy grail of a solution. There's a reason it is barely used today even industry. Industry based trains don't even really use it. If they want to go out towards Abbotsford they actually swing down around the Alex Fraser then Watershed Park route then connect up with the Roberts Bank corridor which takes you to Langley. I'd argue that for a commuter line out to Langley that is to get you to Vancouver you'd be faster that route compared to interurban too. You just run the Amtrak run then instead of heading South in the Surrey flats you keep going along the Roberts Bank corridor out to Langley. Hell the Roberts Bank line goes straight through the center of Langley.

[xd_1771]

I don't see how any extension of the Expo Line in the few years would work very well or be cost effective actually. Let me provide an explanation: to make the Expo Line significantly longer (up to 2x the original size) while keeping the same frequency as the Vancouver-Surrey section right now (which perhaps makes sense in this area) would require a significantly large amount of new trains. At which point Diane Watts could be right, such an extension would cost millions and millions.

Meanwhile connecting Newton & Guildford to Whalley via Skytrain serves plenty of city residents, does a lot to promote intercity movement, can still effectively tout Whalley as a regional hub through Guildford & Newton, and more effectively benefits the city of Surrey. I'm thinking that development being focused on the area around the city of Surrey should definitely be a priority. If you're trying to expand outward right away, that just adds to the trouble, as significant investment must be done to serve those outward centres while at the same time perhaps leaving others in the dust.

Surrey is a big city. Focus on the areas of Newton, Guildford, Whalley and Fleetwood, however. This area is perhaps as big as the city of Vancouver, but in this area there are still only just over half as many people living in Vancouver. Surrey should be forming a tighter community where development already exists, to acknowledge and support a dense but livable environment similar to what you see in Vancouver. By expanding Skytrain to outer centres right away, you are still encouraging urban sprawl, and areas of Surrey outside of Whalley will perhaps never leave the Calgary-style density that is occuring right now - causing more pains for the city has to spend tons of money to serve areas that are still of fairly low density. This is why expanding Skytrain on a within-Surrey basis could be a very good idea. By promoting development in Newton and Guildford, you are promoting a change in these centres and increase in density, in a way that also supports such a change in Whalley. The density I am talking about that should be put here are condos and big apartments - many of which have indeed come up in the areas of Newton & Guildford. Two major apartment complexes (Charlton Park and Escada, just west of Guildford Hts. Park) were built only in the last few years. That I would like to see much more of. Because the centres are close to each other, the centres can benefit from each other, because people need only to move shorter distances for things they need. Skytrain to connect these two centres to the denser centre of Whalley would truly and very effectively support that. Surrey still and also has an advantage over Vancouver because of its size, in that you are still able to expand outwards, because the city actually covers a very large area, if there is any need to.

Have a look at Guildford right now. The development here in this potential area is slowing down. The Guildford Mall really isn't visited by that many people except those who live in Guildford, but we can change that with a Skytrain. The Guildford Mall could become an effective urban hub that people actually want to go to. If you are going to build Skytrain to Langley and ignore this vital area to the city, it will remain the same. Guildford will still be a community within itself. The only people visiting the Guildford Mall will continue to mostly be the residents of Guildford. Density will not happen. The big empty building on 104th will remain empty. If the same goes for Newton, then Surrey will never progress to the city that one could dream of, except perhaps in Whalley.

Are there really any places going to that are worth serving other than residents? Clayton is being built on townhouses.... perhaps only. It's not a big mixture of high-density residential, commercial and industrial. If you build Skytrain out to Clayton and no one else, you may be supporting Clayton, but it's mostly residential. The business and industrial that is there in Langley, it's not there in Clayton. You would support Clayton's travel to everywhere else, but are most people going to Clayton? No, a lot of people would be goig beyond to Langley and you would be missing Langley. You're also not really serving too decent of a population in between. Where residential transit priority is concerned only, instead of connecting areas with residential, commercial and industrial that serve plenty of movement between and beyond, transit expansion should be started small with buses, bus rapid transit, and unless such commercial/industrial develops in those areas in ways that could effectively turn those areas into separate town centres, then you should invest in LRT or RRT.

I would focus first on giving this area easy access to the metro closest to it - in this case Langley. Clayton and Langley's Centres can work in tandem to create a big city that can truly become a part of this metro; the residential in Clayton can support the thriving commercial and Industrial in Langley. From Langley is where expanded transit should be constructed to Surrey and beyond. You are already doing this with a rapid bus line, and you could do this perhaps with the interurban line.

All transit expansion plans be built as direct lines to where they are intended to go. Why do you think they expanded the Expo Line into Surrey City Centre, only a year after they constructed the extension to Scott Rd? You weren't actually supporting the city of Surrey very well by extending to Scott Rd, you were shortening a few bus routes and perhaps that's it.

For the purposes of this debate let us consider a modern interurban line (commuter rail) an equivalent of the WCE. Concerning the interurban line, you do make a very interesting point about that. The only thing I am disagreeing with is that the interurban is very slow (fewer stops and fast railroad operation separated from road, with no stops whatsoever in between by traffic jams or stoplights), but there is an interesting point being made about the frequently. I would just as sooner drive or take a more readily available bus to Guildford or Newton and then go from there, rather than wait 30 minutes for that train. It is the reason why 320 is the most crowded Guildford-Whalley route. It was, however, mentioned earlier that an interurban line would work best as additional support to other forms of transit and transportation, and that is how I would like this to be implemented. Perhaps this is why it seems to work well in Coquitlam, Pitt Meadows, etc. for those areas, there are plenty of alternatives such as frequent bus service. Meanwhile, such a railway also has the capability to go beyond; the WCE goes to Mission. A Fraser Valley Express would go to Abbotsford & Chiliwack.

Another interesting point is made about commuter train or LRT on hills. 104th is actually quite rolling and hilly between Central & Guildford, and same goes for King George Highway to Newton. Meanwhile, the way Bombardier designed the ART, it can very easily go up a hill in a very fast manner.

[GMasterAres]

Some of you may be interested in what the ministry thinks:

http://www.slideshare.net/sfot/transit-in-the-fraser-valley-presentation

Surrey part is at the end. In a nutshell looks like option wise they are looking at:

1) Surrey Central down Fraser Highway to Langley (what I had suggested quite a bit earlier)
2) Surrey Central to Guildford then up to Fraser Highway and out to Langley (the big dipper route I like to call)
3) Surrey Central to Newton then via KGH out to South Surrey
4) Surrey Central to Newton then via Highway 10 to 152nd and out to South Surrey

Obviously they aren't saying what type of transit would serve all or some of each of the possible routes (open to all forms they say in the presentation including rapid bus, LRT, and RRT (Skytrain).

Either way though those look like the 4 routes they are looking at. I'd say it is a no brainer and pretty much what everyone has said in this thread. Ultimately I think the argument is over cost and transit type which is up to the Ministry and Translink to study and come up with accurate population projections. My thoughts are based on living in the city of Surrey my whole life but are by no means accurate.

The most difficult item is when you get down to commuter traffic vs inner-city traffic. Inner-city traffic often makes up the bulk. We only see commuter traffic as a big thing because it is everyone going to work at the same time which clogs things up. But if you add up the rest of the day there are way more people moving between rush hour than during rush hour. Up to them to find that number and do a cost-benefit analysis.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I don't see how any extension of the Expo Line in the few years would work very well or be cost effective actually. Let me provide an explanation: to make the Expo Line significantly longer (up to 2x the original size) while keeping the same frequency as the Vancouver-Surrey section right now (which perhaps makes sense in this area) would require a significantly large amount of new trains. At which point Diane Watts could be right, such an extension would cost millions and millions.

Meanwhile connecting Newton & Guildford to Whalley via Skytrain serves plenty of city residents, does a lot to promote intercity movement, can still effectively tout Whalley as a regional hub through Guildford & Newton, and more effectively benefits the city of Surrey. I'm thinking that development being focused on the area around the city of Surrey should definitely be a priority. If you're trying to expand outward right away, that just adds to the trouble, as significant investment must be done to serve those outward centres while at the same time perhaps leaving others in the dust.

Surrey is a big city. Focus on the areas of Newton, Guildford, Whalley and Fleetwood, however. This area is perhaps as big as the city of Vancouver, but in this area there are still only just over half as many people living in Vancouver. Surrey should be forming a tighter community where development already exists, to acknowledge and support a dense but livable environment similar to what you see in Vancouver. By expanding Skytrain to outer centres right away, you are still encouraging urban sprawl, and areas of Surrey outside of Whalley will perhaps never leave the Calgary-style density that is occuring right now - causing more pains for the city has to spend tons of money to serve areas that are still of fairly low density. This is why expanding Skytrain on a within-Surrey basis could be a very good idea. By promoting development in Newton and Guildford, you are promoting a change in these centres and increase in density, in a way that also supports such a change in Whalley. The density I am talking about that should be put here are condos and big apartments - many of which have indeed come up in the areas of Newton & Guildford. Two major apartment complexes (Charlton Park and Escada, just west of Guildford Hts. Park) were built only in the last few years. That I would like to see much more of. Because the centres are close to each other, the centres can benefit from each other, because people need only to move shorter distances for things they need. Skytrain to connect these two centres to the denser centre of Whalley would truly and very effectively support that. Surrey still and also has an advantage over Vancouver because of its size, in that you are still able to expand outwards, because the city actually covers a very large area, if there is any need to.

I don't disagree. Don't get me wrong. I am just unsure Translink or the Province would ever foot the bill for any such transit system. Not without expecting Surrey residential taxes to go up by 10%. If they hike everyone's taxes including people in Vancouver and Burnaby to pay for the line then it would have a better chance (I mean we've been paying for all their Skytrain and services for how many years). I could be wrong though and they could pull a rabbit out of the hat with the next Provincial government.

I'd absolutely love your option to come true.

Have a look at Guildford right now. The development here in this potential area is slowing down. The Guildford Mall really isn't visited by that many people except those who live in Guildford, but we can change that with a Skytrain. The Guildford Mall could become an effective urban hub that people actually want to go to. If you are going to build Skytrain to Langley and ignore this vital area to the city, it will remain the same. Guildford will still be a community within itself. The only people visiting the Guildford Mall will continue to mostly be the residents of Guildford. Density will not happen. The big empty building on 104th will remain empty. If the same goes for Newton, then Surrey will never progress to the city that one could dream of, except perhaps in Whalley.

Again don't disagree. I think Guildford has a lot of potential. Just like I think we're going to see quite a lot of development start down by Scott Road station once the SFPR goes in and you get more traffic through that area. I would love for example to see them develop a water front much like you have in downtown Vancouver with some water taxis going between Surrey and New West. Would maybe kick New West into gear on redeveloping their waterfront too.

I agree, Skytrain to Guildford would increase the odds of densification and with the expansion of Guildford Mall make the area even more important regionally.

Are there really any places going to that are worth serving other than residents? Clayton is being built on townhouses.... perhaps only. It's not a big mixture of high-density residential, commercial and industrial. If you build Skytrain out to Clayton and no one else, you may be supporting Clayton, but it's mostly residential. The business and industrial that is there in Langley, it's not there in Clayton. You would support Clayton's travel to everywhere else, but are most people going to Clayton? No, a lot of people would be goig beyond to Langley and you would be missing Langley. You're also not really serving too decent of a population in between. Where residential transit priority is concerned only, instead of connecting areas with residential, commercial and industrial that serve plenty of movement between and beyond, transit expansion should be started small with buses, bus rapid transit, and unless such commercial/industrial develops in those areas in ways that could effectively turn those areas into separate town centres, then you should invest in LRT or RRT.

True. That's why I would argue more for a Skytrain line that went via Guildford to Langley. So the big dipper line as I like to call it. From Surrey Central to Guildford then up 152nd and out to Langley along Fraser Highway. That way you are connecting 2 major town centers in Surrey with destination purpose to 3 major residential areas in Fleetwood, East Clayton, and Langley, then the hub of Langley. It would be expensive though.

Newton I find as a bit of a hard sell right now though. If we're going to point to residential destinations, Newton falls into that too. As I've mentioned before it has a high population 120,000 people but that is spread out over the area of all of Burnaby. So when you look at it that way, it is quite un-dense right now and once you get 20 or so blocks away from any transit line, your rideship vanishes.

Also destination wise, what is in Newton? Nothing really. There is a Superstore and Costco. Woopy. Newton wave pool? Meh. What else? I grew up in Newton. It has a lot of potential if the new area plan goes through, but it is much like Fleetwood or East Clayton. A stop on the way through. So if I had to pick between going out to Newton or going out to Langley, I'd pick Langley every time. That isn't to say they don't need some sort of transit expansion to Newton either via rapid bus or LRT, but I think SkyTrain is overkill and going the wrong direction.

Just my opinion though. As I said though, I don't entirely disagree with you and do actually agree on a lot of points.

I would focus first on giving this area easy access to the metro closest to it - in this case Langley. Clayton and Langley's Centres can work in tandem to create a big city that can truly become a part of this metro; the residential in Clayton can support the thriving commercial and Industrial in Langley. From Langley is where expanded transit should be constructed to Surrey and beyond. You are already doing this with a rapid bus line, and you could do this perhaps with the interurban line.

Don't know if that would ever happen. Clayton is still a bit of a ways from Langley not to mention I'd find it hard to believe Surrey would ever encourage a large population area such as East Clayton to support major business growth in another city (Langley). That's just not how councils think. Vancouver isn't going "Hey I hope people around Joyce help Burnaby expand Metrotown." Doesn't happen.

I do think Langley will become a focus though in 30 years and be a suburb to Surrey much like Burnaby is to Vancouver. Who knows though.

All transit expansion plans be built as direct lines to where they are intended to go. Why do you think they expanded the Expo Line into Surrey City Centre, only a year after they constructed the extension to Scott Rd? You weren't actually supporting the city of Surrey very well by extending to Scott Rd, you were shortening a few bus routes and perhaps that's it.

Yup.

For the purposes of this debate let us consider a modern interurban line (commuter rail) an equivalent of the WCE. Concerning the interurban line, you do make a very interesting point about that. The only thing I am disagreeing with is that the interurban is very slow (fewer stops and fast railroad operation separated from road, with no stops whatsoever in between by traffic jams or stoplights), but there is an interesting point being made about the frequently. I would just as sooner drive or take a more readily available bus to Guildford or Newton and then go from there, rather than wait 30 minutes for that train. It is the reason why 320 is the most crowded Guildford-Whalley route. It was, however, mentioned earlier that an interurban line would work best as additional support to other forms of transit and transportation, and that is how I would like this to be implemented. Perhaps this is why it seems to work well in Coquitlam, Pitt Meadows, etc. for those areas, there are plenty of alternatives such as frequent bus service. Meanwhile, such a railway also has the capability to go beyond; the WCE goes to Mission. A Fraser Valley Express would go to Abbotsford & Chiliwack.

You could also easily swing the WCE down across the Fraser and to Abbotsford for less cost. Again the WCE is meant to get people to Downtown Vancouver. If the Interurban was to do the same thing then I'd just extend the WCE which is already in place and already running. Could easily then turn it and head it out to Chilliwack.

To me if they did build the Interurban the purpose would be to bring people to Surrey specifically. And yes I agree it would be to function as a suplement to already existing and expanded transit services in other areas. I just think the interurban is a nice to have project and the other items on the list are far more important in the short term. If we didn't see the interurban built up in the next 30 years I don't think the region would suffer 1 bit. If we don't see expansion to newton, Guildford, or Langley in the next 30 years, we'll have a transportation crisis.

Another interesting point is made about commuter train or LRT on hills. 104th is actually quite rolling and hilly between Central & Guildford, and same goes for King George Highway to Newton. Meanwhile, the way Bombardier designed the ART, it can very easily go up a hill in a very fast manner.

Rolling hills are a bit different than major cliffs. The height gain from Scott Road base to 96th I believe is around 300 feet. The highest elevation gain along 104th is at King George and is about 40-50 feet. After that it is a bit rolling but you never gain or lose more than 20 or 30 feet at any point. There is a difference. Momentum in a train can handle 20-30 feet gains. We see that on Skytrain all the time. 300 foot long hills though are a different story. Still once you pass that stretch I would imagine the speeds would be fine. Also once you get out towards Cloverdale there it is all flat again so you'd really pick up the speed.

Honestly, I don't think speed would be much of a factor for an interurban line if it went all the way out to the Fraser Valley because we're talking 30 minute frequencies and the slowest stretch is probably the stretch with the most stations anyway. Still though it seems you agree most people in Surrey would just jump a bus since it would be faster for them.

If I lived out in Abbotsford and wanted to get to Surrey though I'd probably have no issue jumping on a train, kicking back, and reading a book instead of fighting with traffic on Highway 1. It may be an important route when Surrey becomes a major downtown with jobs as a destination. Short term though I still lump it in the nice to have category.

Also think the Ministry sees a short term of extending the WCE as a more viable solution for now. Eventually interurban could close the loop so to speak. WCE extended to the airport. Then interurban from Scott Road out to the airport. You can then make the giant loop around the metro vancouver area.

Who knows.

[xd_1771]

I would love for example to see them develop a water front much like you have in downtown Vancouver with some water taxis going between Surrey and New West. Would maybe kick New West into gear on redeveloping their waterfront too.

That would be absolutely awesome to see. This could quite possibly be my least favourite area in the entirety of Surrey. Right now it's quite barren with a mix of light industrial and residential, along with a whole bunch of junkyards. Compare this with New Westminster right across the river looking like a booming dense residential centre; now look across the river - major eyesore of nothingness! There is huge potential for this area. It would be well built around existing transit connections, and there are two major city centres (New Westminster and Whalley) are on either side. This area could be well-built as urbanized high density development right away. The way Scott Road is built right now is a park and ride, and has succeeded as a park and ride, but hasn't really done anything to revolutionize the area around it; I would like to see that change, with more people accessing the area by transit to travel to other destinations, as well as more reasons to travel in and out with residential and commercial development. To recreate this area as a town centre would create a very integral "Y" system of town centres within the City of Surrey, that could support each other really well. By starting fresh and anew, the new community could also be designed to be even more livable and walkable than anything else existing. You would also create a very nice link in between Surrey's City Centre and other cities in the Metro.

The issue would be very similar in terms of building skytrain to 168th and ending it there. Again, you're encouraging people to drive to transit, and it is probably going to remain like that forever even if the skytrain is extended the full way into a major city centre. It's happened at Scott Road, and it can happen as such there. I do support the idea of park and ride as a way to initiate transit use but I don't believe it should remain that way forever. Transit options should eventually and quickly be expanded to these park and rides, which would have great potentials to redevelop as major commercial & residential centres. The situation would perhaps be different if the expansion is taken a bit further to 184th. Speaking strictly short-term and of serving Clayton, this is a community that is still quite new and perhaps immature. Not only would such a long distance extension be expensive, but there would be no one on the way to effectively serve, and there is no guarantee that it would work. Clayton seems to have been designed to be totally residential; it is very new and the perhaps very immature. The closest major commercial and industrial centres are Langley and Cloverdale. Clayton is simply too far to serve as a node to other town centres like Whalley, and there's not even any guarantee that people would take advantage of this line; as a resident of Clayton, I would most likely still shop and work in Cloverdale or Langley, simply because these centres are closer and still way more accessible. Extending Skytrain to Clayton would serve the community's wish to travel to major city centres, but you may not be actually be supporting that community as a community. In addition, when you are thinking of serving Langley with this line, you are missing Langley, a matured and important community just beyond this that would most likely end up driving to this area - hence the park-n-ride effect prevails once again, and this could end up being an effect that disadvantages the brand new areas of Clayton.

Newton I find as a bit of a hard sell right now though. If we're going to point to residential destinations, Newton falls into that too. As I've mentioned before it has a high population 120,000 people but that is spread out over the area of all of Burnaby. So when you look at it that way, it is quite un-dense right now and once you get 20 or so blocks away from any transit line, your rideship vanishes.

I believe Newton is currently being primed for as a major commercial town centre in the upcoming years. To be honest our arguments based on serving Newton with Skytrain seem to be more based on population, not density or what actually exists there. You are right about density; I don't believe there are actually any skyscrapers in the vicinity of Newton nor are there any planned, and in terms of major commercial development, you can't really be sure about that either. There is a nice amount of Industrial nearby however, I can see how a Newton extension can still benefit the rest of Surrey even if you are not just serving residential priorities. I would like to see this area develop into something on the scale of Richmond's industrial to the north and east, where there are many large warehouses (such as those of NCIX, a major Canadian computer store) and other large company headquarters (such as T&T supermarket); such a thing could make a huge difference in supporting the city of Surrey. In Richmond, it works fairly well even without rapid transit, because this industrial is close to commercial & residential centres. If you connect towards that area with nearby rapid transit, the area could really shine and Surrey would be one big step ahead in attracting industrial development. As even more new industrial moves into there, there would already be the residential & commercial to support it. In addition, by extending in the direction of Newton, you would also be allowing for better access to Bear Creek Park from all three major centres and by extension those beyond it.

You could also easily swing the WCE down across the Fraser and to Abbotsford for less cost.

I took a look through what BC MOT posted on Slideshare and came across this option. It actually doesn't seem like a bad idea for connecting Abbotsford to the metro, however you would be taking away from Surrey as a hub for the SOF. I don't believe it serves Abbotsford Airport either. If you are trying to get Abbotsford-Vancouver travellers out of their car, it does seem like a viable option.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

I do support the idea of park and ride as a way to initiate transit use but I don't believe it should remain that way forever. Transit options should eventually and quickly be expanded to these park and rides, which would have great potentials to redevelop as major commercial & residential centres.

The Park and rides could be reduced.... or if the land becomes valuable enough, Translink can build vertical park and rides.

Clayton seems to have been designed to be totally residential; it is very new and the perhaps very immature. The closest major commercial and industrial centres are Langley and Cloverdale.

Yes, true when it comes to employment, however, the small mall at 186th is very busy and fairly complete with banks, grocery, gas, restaurants and drug stores.

You're right, though... most of their residents are likely to run down to Langley or to Surrey.