NEW YORK | 15 Penn Plaza (Hotel Penn) | 1,050 FT / 315 M | 52 FLOORS

[Tony73]

Well, if selling the air rights to developers, we will have this???

[/QUOTE]

[Mr. Lion]

Originally Posted by Tony73

Well, if selling the air rights to developers, we will have this???

Its all very sketchy right now. We will find out more in the coming months. Still like your fantasy proposal

[STR]

^The air rights situation is extra complex here. While MSG can sell what it has left, there's an extra 2-3 million sqft that can only be used on the MSG site (non-transferable) if the arena is demolished. The arena doesn't need to be right on top of the station, true. It is, however, a major public destination and shouldn't be too far away. Siting it 2-4 blocks to the south and maybe even 1 or 2 to the east won't harm business and the street grid is already broken up in the area, so one more superblock won't harm anyone. Plus, it would actually be close to Madison Square.

Only problem is building on or around a major transit station is a huge pain. Unlike a normal subway station, you can't just shut it down. Look at the WTC Path terminal, they have to build 2 terminals (excluding the near-copy rebuild of the original station after 9/11), one temporary at great expense ($600 million if I recall correctly) and THEN the permanent one in order to avoid interfering with the flow of traffic.

[Mr. Lion]

Originally Posted by STR

^Only problem is building on or around a major transit station is a huge pain. Unlike a normal subway station, you can't just shut it down.

we all know how cluttered it is down there....

[STR]

The issue isn't clutter. It's that you have to physically build a a brand new temporary station away from the construction site. A whole new station that has to last for the 5-6 years it takes to tear everything down and build everything back up. Then, you have to build a whole new permanent station. It tacks on a billion dollars to any project you put there in addition to the difficulties of planning a building over the rail hub.

To move forward on Penn Station III you need:
1) A willing developer (more or less check here)
2) A party willing to move MSG (no check)
3) An alternate MSG site (nada)
4) Get the current occupants of New MSG to move out.
5) Public help to build the new and temp stations. (not there, but maybe). By help, I mean full funding of all direct costs of the station.

[Mr. Lion]

Originally Posted by STR

The issue isn't clutter. It's that you have to physically build a a brand new temporary station away from the construction site. A whole new station that has to last for the 5-6 years it takes to tear everything down and build everything back up. Then, you have to build a whole new permanent station. It tacks on a billion dollars to any project you put there in addition to the difficulties of planning a building over the rail hub.

To move forward on Penn Station III you need:
1) A willing developer (more or less check here)
2) A party willing to move MSG (no check)
3) An alternate MSG site (nada)
4) Get the current occupants of New MSG to move out.
5) Public help to build the new and temp stations. (not there, but maybe). By help, I mean full funding of all direct costs of the station.

Cluttering is a very big issue actually. There are hundreds of pipes, conduits and tunnels under that location. Some aren't even in use anymore. Under MSQ is one of the most complex networks of infrastructure in the city. As you said, these have to be rerouted and then rebuilt during the final phases of construction. Obviously clutter players a very big role here.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Mr. Lion

I personally like this plan, but it appears to have no arena element.

Ah, but there you go. The arena is at the forefront of that photo. Here's another look at it...




At one point, the Dolans were on board with moving into the western end of the Farley. But preservationists were against MSG having signs anywhere on Farley, particularly the 8th Ave side, and then the developers got bogged down with financing. To make matters worse (for them), Bloomberg said MSG wouldn't keep its tax break if they moved it (Bloomberg later said they should lose it altogether, still angry over the Cablevision/Jets stadium war). They decided to go ahead with the plans for the renovation of the current Garden which is currently underway. In all of the various scenarios for what could and would be built in the area, 15 Penn Plaza has been a constant, it just needed approvals that it now has.

Originally Posted by STR

Only problem is building on or around a major transit station is a huge pain. Unlike a normal subway station, you can't just shut it down. Look at the WTC Path terminal, they have to build 2 terminals (excluding the near-copy rebuild of the original station after 9/11), one temporary at great expense ($600 million if I recall correctly) and THEN the permanent one in order to avoid interfering with the flow of traffic.

The complex nature of building over the station was another reason the developers decided to move away from building two thousand footers directly over the station.




Here's a look at 15 Penn above the rails leading into Penn Station

[Dac150]

I would have to imagine that dismantling the current MSG over Penn Station would be a very complex procedure within itself; which is why it makes sense to renovate rather than replace all together. What lacks on that site has potential to be made up for in the surrounding area in terms of development.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by Dac150

I would have to imagine that dismantling the current MSG over Penn Station would be a very complex procedure within itself; which is why it makes sense to renovate rather than replace all together. What lacks on that site has potential to be made up for in the surrounding area in terms of development.

Because of the neighborhood immediately to the south, development can't push that way. Of course, it can move west (Manhattan West, Hudson Yards), and east (15 Penn Plaza), and somewhat to the north. What you won't have is the density of something like Grand Central Terminal, which has towers over and around it. And that's too bad, considering Penn Station is the busiest station in the country, in a city where transportation is so key. Putting up these large towers will help to account for some of that.

[Tony73]

But in the future, Vornado can move the tower with the spire (2000 ft ?) on Hudson Yards? It is a good possibility?

[Lecom]

Originally Posted by STR

Only problem is building on or around a major transit station is a huge pain. Unlike a normal subway station, you can't just shut it down. Look at the WTC Path terminal, they have to build 2 terminals (excluding the near-copy rebuild of the original station after 9/11), one temporary at great expense ($600 million if I recall correctly) and THEN the permanent one in order to avoid interfering with the flow of traffic.

When they demolished Penn Station and built the MSG, they pulled it off somehow, so why wouldn't they be able to do it again? I agree though, it would be a major pain.

[Dac150]

No doubt it could physically be done, however it would be just that, a major inconvenience. I don’t think anyone wants to deal with that otherwise redevelopment of the site would be taken more seriously. As big of a hurdle as building over the PATH station in Downtown is, building over Penn Station would be a whole other ballgame.

[STR]

Originally Posted by Lecom

When they demolished Penn Station and built the MSG, they pulled it off somehow, so why wouldn't they be able to do it again? I agree though, it would be a major pain.

Clearly, it can be done. It's being done at the WTC right now (less of an argument, since there was never a disagreement that a public organization shouldn't foot the bill). The scale is a bit bigger here, but the problem is fundamentally of the same nature, and the same risks. However, when it's private money, you have to increase the payoff to mitigate the risk.

I suggest the answer is an even bigger FAR bonus than what exists now. Say...7 or 8 million square feet of rights in total for the block, all non-transferable. Throw in either a loan guarantee or direct equity investment of a billion or so if that's not enough.

[NYguy]

Originally Posted by STR

I suggest the answer is an even bigger FAR bonus than what exists now. Say...7 or 8 million square feet of rights in total for the block, all non-transferable. Throw in either a loan guarantee or direct equity investment of a billion or so if that's not enough.

Clearly the development rights are the key here, and an increase would make everyone reconsider buildng on site. Ironically, when the Hudson Yards planning was underway, City Planning wanted to allow and unlimited FAR for a few sites, one of them being 2 Penn Plaza. That was later dropped, and the alarmed City Council put limits on the other sites, often referred to as the "four corners" towers, the planned towers at the intersection of 34th Street and the new Hudson Boulevard.

An unlimited FAR at the 2 Penn Plaza site would have allowed for a beast larger than 15 Penn, and probably anything else in the City.

[RobertWalpole]

In light of the $800M renovation of MSG, it won't be redeveloped for at least another 20 to 30 years.

[NYguy]

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manha...jgaRo5ZAfxabRQCAlJ?CMP=OTC-rss&FEEDNAME=

Hotel roof plunge kills guest

By JOHN DOYLE and FRANK ROSARIO
January 24, 2011

A man plummeted to his death yesterday at the Hotel Pennsylvania after getting locked out in the cold on a lower-floor roof, cops said.

Moon Nam, 23, of Jersey City, had checked into the Midtown hotel with pals after spending a night on the town, sources said. He woke up at 6 a.m. to head home.

The dazed-and-confused Nam wound up on a different floor and at some point entered a rear stairwell on the fifth floor, where he walked through an exit door, leading him onto a set-back roof.

The door slammed shut behind Nam, leaving him in the early-morning cold, cops said.

Nam slipped and fell to his death, officials said. The tragedy has been ruled an accident.

[SkyscrapersOfNewYork]

Tear it down before it kills anyone else!!!!!!

[STR]

Originally Posted by RobertWalpole

In light of the $800M renovation of MSG, it won't be redeveloped for at least another 20 to 30 years.

Just messing with some numbers here, but any development looking to replace MSG today, after the renovation, would have to pay more than 1.1 billion (that's the 800 million, spread over ten years (80 p/y), with interest added to equalize the fact that the 800M was spent today) than what it would have cost pre-renovation. Given that a development here would be in the scale of $10 billion (WTC is in the $15-20 billion range), that may or may not be a deal breaker by itself. I think it still comes down to the other factors here. I agree though, that nothing will happen in real life. The political will is gone for at least a decade.

[NYguy]

http://www.observer.com/2011/real-estate/slideshow/title

15 Penn Plaza



By Laura Kusisto
February 15, 2011

A couple of blocks east of Brookfield’s sprawling development, Vornado Realty Trust hopes to erect a tower so impressive that it has caused even the iconic Empire State Building to pull back its shoulders.

The 2.8 million–square–foot office tower will be 1,200 feet tall, making it the city’s third-tallest building. But Anthony Malkin, whose firm W&H Properties controls the Empire State Building, wrote a letter to the City Planning Commission last summer, raising concerns about the likely effect on his emperor of the skyline. Most recently, concerns even surfaced in The Real Deal that the Vornado tower could disrupt its neighbor’s radio signals.

The project received government approval in August, and there have been a smattering of minor permits issued at the would-be site, which would supplant the aged Hotel Pennsylvania. Vornado said no decision has been made about who will manage the construction.

[patriotizzy]

So is this green lit? I'm confused.