Calgary Public Transit II

[fusili]

All excellent points. The problem with the Nose Creek alignment, is that there wasn't really a significant study done comparing it to the Centre Street alignment. To me, catchment area is one of the greatest arguements for Centre Street. The great thing about Centre Street is that most of the population in north central Calgary is centred on Centre Street. North-central Calgary is basically a large corridor bordered by 14th street on the west and Deerfoot on the east. Centre Street is almost in the middle.

What people need to realize is the Centre Street Subway will be very different from Calgary's traditional LRT system based on Park-n-Rides and feeder buses. Because stops will be right along a corridor (no median alignment), the percentage riders that are pedestrians will be much higher. Quite honestly, there really can't be a Park-n-Ride until about 64th Avenue.

[Robert in Calgary]

I'll post this here as well since it's the official thread.......


The engineers are wrong. They don't want Centre Street LRT and made sure the report reflected that bias. LRT in the Nose Creek Valley is asinine.

I have had face to face conversations with the planners admitting they were afraid of "community outrage" over picking the common sense route.

We'll buy properties for Glenmore/Elbow, for West LRT, we'll spend decades buying properties for 16th Avenue. We'll put houses right next to Deerfoot Trail....

If the city had spent 2 million dollars a year for the last 20-25 years, we would have the route ready and waiting to go.

Around...8 or 10 years ago I suggested running the early sections of the route in an open trench on a 1st Street NE alignment. You would have thought I was suggesting a manned mission to Mars!

Now what do I see being used on the West LRT route? The exact same concept I suggested.

I produced my own report back in 2006 giving a modified route.

Here's a slight variation on it. We need a Centre Street LRT route, and we're going to get one.

http://beta.mapmyrun.com/routes/view/24138560/

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Robert in Calgary

Here's a slight variation on it. We need a Centre Street LRT route, and we're going to get one.

http://beta.mapmyrun.com/routes/view/24138560/

I will agree with you somewhat, but I would like to stress why Centre Street is preferable to 1st Street NE, Edmonton Trail or even 4th Street NW, and that is that it is a commercial street. The majority of land use along either side of Centre Street until about 30th avenue is commercial. Commercial property benefits the most from being adjacent to transit.

Having a subway stop next to a grocery store, restaurant or retail shop is fantastic for both the riders and the business. Having a subway stop outside a duplex apartment is not a good idea.

I would propose tunneling it until about 30th avenue and then going above ground.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by fusili

I will agree with you somewhat, but I would like to stress why Centre Street is preferable to 1st Street NE, Edmonton Trail or even 4th Street NW, and that is that it is a commercial street. The majority of land use along either side of Centre Street until about 30th avenue is commercial. Commercial property benefits the most from being adjacent to transit.

Having a subway stop next to a grocery store, restaurant or retail shop is fantastic for both the riders and the business. Having a subway stop outside a duplex apartment is not a good idea.

I would propose tunneling it until about 30th avenue and then going above ground.

I'm open to ideas. The key point for me is that - a long time ago the planners decided they didn't want a Centre Street solution. Too much work. It was Nose Creek and that was that.

I ended up picking 1st Street NE in the early section because the area between Centre St. and Edmonton Trail is destined to go higher density as much as the folks there want to put a bubble around themselves.

I've walked between downtown and Beddington Trail quite a few times.

[MalcolmTucker]

I'm not too sure the end result of a trench would be much cheaper than a true tunnel, but that all depends on geology. One difficulty with trenches is that as the width narrows to what is exactly needed for the ROW, the costs begin to approach a tunnel anyways. You also would have to buy the right of way whereas a tunnel you just close half of Centre St for 3 years (or possibly if the geology makes it cheaper, bore). Depending on property value a trench might not be cheaper. But again, it shows why we need a big, likely expensive study so perhaps the city can issue the entire NC and SE LRT as one project.

I can't say for sure but it would likely be one of the biggest P3 projects in the world after the Channel Tunnel.

I don't think planners ever decided that Nose Creek was better, just assumed that at the time if we didn't have money for 'easy' extensions or the downtown tunnel, proposing a subway would seem ludicrous.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

I'm not too sure the end result of a trench would be much cheaper than a true tunnel, but that all depends on geology. One difficulty with trenches is that as the width narrows to what is exactly needed for the ROW, the costs begin to approach a tunnel anyways. You also would have to buy the right of way whereas a tunnel you just close half of Centre St for 3 years (or possibly if the geology makes it cheaper, bore). Depending on property value a trench might not be cheaper. But again, it shows why we need a big, likely expensive study so perhaps the city can issue the entire NC and SE LRT as one project.

I'm not claiming to have the perfect solution, I was trying to show city hall there were various ideas and solutions the planners hadn't considered.

As for 1st Street NE, I've considered only using the Street ROW and also buying, depending on lot size, the last house on each block.

At that time in the first part of 2006, I also looked up assessments to gauge property costs..

[unibrain]

http://www.calgary.ca/portal/server.pt/g...Refurbishment/7+Avenue+Refurbishment.htm

at the 1:30 mark, Mac indicates that the long term plan is for five car trains for the NW and S lines... I think this would be pretty exciting... however Im not sure if some of the current stations could handle extensions that long... Sunnyside for example... I suppose there would be some stations that would go underground for this to happen.

[jeffwhit]

^^ Long term there should be no real issue expanding the Sunnyside station to hold 5 cars. The pedestrian crossing would have to be moved and rethought, but in conjunction with a redevelopment of the School Board warehouse (the large triangular building taking up prime real estate) there is plenty of space. SAIT/ACAD is actually the problematic one.

[sim]

Chinook would be another, as I believe there is already enough trouble getting that one to expand to 4 cars.

In other news, has a certain forumer returned from the shadows? I think so.

[Dado]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Personally from a development point of view I would rather have a built in population to feed an LRT line than trying to build up several new build TOD villages at once. We can't even get the next two phases of London built, and the next stages of the bridges, who is to say we could build out 4 or 6 TODs from scratch at the same time.

I can't help but think that this issue is partly due to the type of TOD being developed - they're basically just condos intended for singles and couples. But that market would probably prefer to be downtown or in the Beltline.

Perhaps if the developments were targeted towards families, especially professional families with less of an obsession for having a yard of their own, these developments would sell better.

It seems that if you want to live near to a transit station and have a family, you have to find a house in a neighbourhood like Sunnyside, Lion's Park or Banff Trail.

[MalcolmTucker]

Every city has problems building higher density family sized units at even somewhat reasonable prices, I don't see how it is unique or even fixable. And walkups and townhouses like in Garrisson Woods just won't give you the profit - even look at the bridges, it is still the least used station in the city I believe (not that the stats are up to date at all however)

[You Need A Thneed]

Whitehorn station now has a brand new 4 car platform.

[hulkrogan]

Originally Posted by Robert in Calgary

We'll have to start putting the lines underground to fix that.

One line per avenue.

Definitely, but I think lots of people are confused because the last time they took the train it was Whitehorn/Anderson.

Now that it's Sommerset-Bridlewood and McKnight-Westwinds they have no idea which one is NE and which one is South.

[sim]

...continued from the Election thread.


I`m going to go ahead and be so bold as to say we don`t need a study to determine which is the best route for the NCLRT. Going up Nose Creek, aside from cost, is in every which way a bad idea.

The point has already been made that any TOD nodes that would ideally accompany the line would be very hard to realize. A very, very, very hard sell indeed. I think the city has enough trouble finding people that want or even have to live in MFH even when these are in superb locations. TOD would of course, entail this.

I can`t see how that location would then work. It would have to be incredibly masterplanned (Ramsay exchange or East Village style - enormous capital - without the benefit of location.)

I don`t see any devoloper marketing just one tower or complex under the single benefit that is is near a station. `Live here by the train tracks, in earshot of Deerfoot in a valley sorta thing with no ammeneties nearby whatsoever - but we got a C train station!`

I`m exagerating a bit of course.

However Center street would be a much easier sell and of course there is still room along there to densify an already fairly dense area.

To me it`s a no brainer. The study should focus on whether you throw a TBM in there or C and C that thing. I`d lean toward the former.

[freeweed]

Before you guys get into a free-for-all on the NCLRT alignment, I have a weird question:

What's with the noises at Crowfoot? Sometimes it sounds like loud screeching birds, sometimes like a car alarm. It's centred on the station and is so loud that I often hear it while driving by, with my car windows rolled up and music playing.

Is this some sort of anti-pigeon system that I've never heard of?

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by freeweed

Before you guys get into a free-for-all on the NCLRT alignment, I have a weird question:

What's with the noises at Crowfoot? Sometimes it sounds like loud screeching birds, sometimes like a car alarm. It's centred on the station and is so loud that I often hear it while driving by, with my car windows rolled up and music playing.

Is this some sort of anti-pigeon system that I've never heard of?

Bingo

[Radley77]

Originally Posted by sim

...continued from the Election thread.


I`m going to go ahead and be so bold as to say we don`t need a study to determine which is the best route for the NCLRT. Going up Nose Creek, aside from cost, is in every which way a bad idea.

The point has already been made that any TOD nodes that would ideally accompany the line would be very hard to realize. A very, very, very hard sell indeed. I think the city has enough trouble finding people that want or even have to live in MFH even when these are in superb locations. TOD would of course, entail this.

I can`t see how that location would then work. It would have to be incredibly masterplanned (Ramsay exchange or East Village style - enormous capital - without the benefit of location.)

I don`t see any devoloper marketing just one tower or complex under the single benefit that is is near a station. `Live here by the train tracks, in earshot of Deerfoot in a valley sorta thing with no ammeneties nearby whatsoever - but we got a C train station!`

I`m exagerating a bit of course.

However Center street would be a much easier sell and of course there is still room along there to densify an already fairly dense area.

To me it`s a no brainer. The study should focus on whether you throw a TBM in there or C and C that thing. I`d lean toward the former.

That statement is not very accurate, if you look at places like Bridgeland which has had LRT service, population growth over 19 years was some 16% over that period. And I think Bridgeland is a fair representative of an LRT adjacent community. Why would a Centre Street LRT densify any more effectively than in Bridgeland when one had some land available from the hospital implosion? Is 25% over 25 years reasonable cost expenditure to what could be achieved with greenfield growth?

There is no justification based on densification that would justify that sort of cost.

Secondly, a subway would increase operational costs over the cost of the BRT route. It is easier to build a masterplanned community that is built around the LRT than build an LRT and hope the community can respond.

Any economic model needs to be based on realistic economic assumptions. There needs to be an LRT study on the cost-feasibility of either option that looks at the value as well as the costs involved with either system.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by srperrycgy

Umm... no. He voted against extending the NE LRT to Saddleridge and the NW LRT to Tuscany on Nov. 20 , 2007. Nice and hypocritical when he is, oops, sorry WAS using the SE LRT in his campaign.

In all fairness, I am a huge transit advocate (many of you know this about me) and I would have voted against both extensions. But can we move this to the transit thread or the NCLRT thread. I will copy this response to both.

[MalcolmTucker]

I don't think the city would study C&C vs TBM. Every indication is that future projects will be at least design build turnover P3s, if not design, build, operate, finance. Doing the project Canada Line style would be easy, you set aside a couple conditions and you let the project bidders figure out what is best.

For those not familiar with Canada Line tendering, to oversimplify it went like this:
we need to move x number of people between x locations without removing any traffic lanes, and the line has to be automated

Of course you can add conditions such as where at minimum you want it underground, but I think it would be more interesting to leave that open.

In my mind a tender for the total NC and SE LRT would look like this:
Must travel between north pointe and south hospital
Must have future total capacity of 15,000 people per direction per hour at minimum, and 25,000 people per direction per hour in grade separated sections.
Must hit planned station points within 50m
Travel time must be at most from north point to south hospital of 1 hour 15 minutes
Must not remove road lanes
Cost must include expropriation of property (weighted up by 50% due to disruption of private property)
Technology choice is up to bidder
Must include both optimal case and underground to Beddington Trail case
Detail phasing should the project budget be spread out over x years

In the case of traditional turn over to the government, the bid would also include estimates of operational costs based on CT's current labour contracts.

In the case of full P3, the line would be run for a number of years in exchange for a fee, and the fee amount would be included in the bid. You would also add this to the tender:
Maximum capital contribution from the city

Which would allow the bidder to include in their bid the cost of financing the rest of the line plus operations as a fee to the city. That way we don't only get the cheapest line possible for the route, but we get the cheapest to operate as well on balance.

[Robert in Calgary]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

I
In my mind a tender for the total NC and SE LRT would look like this:
Cost must include expropriation of property (weighted up by 50% due to disruption of private property)

I'm getting ready to head out to the mayoral forum in Marlborough.

I've long thought that cities and their transit systems should work more closely with Canada's Pension funds over projects like this. Win/Win/Win

On Monday I took a walk up 1st Street NE between 5th and 16th Avenues. Then a drive along Centre Street up to 78th Avenue and back. I would encourage folks to just walk the area bounded by Centre Street, 16th Avenue, 1st Street NE and say...7th or 8th Avenues.

Looking though my report, over 9km, I envisioned purchases of 107 single family homes, 74 duplexes, 4 Fourplexes and 1 seven unit building. Total 204 units.

GE5 had 57+
16th Avenue 130+ (?)