Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

Who is saying that Surrey should refuse to pay for the UBC line? You guys are fighting strawmen.



I can't see LRT being much cheaper than Skytrain extensions. And the way Surrey is currently laid out, I can't see much of a need for more than 2 lines: one running diagonally along the Fraser Highway corridor, and one north/south route through Newton. The only place I think LRT might work well is a connection to Guildford, as opposed to a rather awkward diversion on the way to Langley.

Look what you've done, you've made me bust out MS Paint...

guildford, central, newton,cloverdale and langley can all be done in one route
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?t=h&ie=UT...1,-122.775307&spn=0.108651,0.220757&z=12

[invisibleairwaves]

^That's not so great for people in Fleetwood, Langley, or Cloverdale though. Fraser Highway is a great route that cuts a straight line through some of the most built-up areas of Surrey and Langley, why not use it? It's all about cutting down commute times, and a diagonal is shorter than two sides of a square.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by igeneer

if the people in the valley want us (people in Vancouver) to pay for the UBC line, why doesn't the city impose a congestion fee...let's say just for the downtown peninsula to start? I'm sure it's been brought up before, but won't they be able to make shit loads of money with a congestion fee?

It's time to think like the Europeans do a bit and be proactive.

The thing is, there's no point in stratifying your taxes like that, especially when you're targeting the same group over and over again. You may as well just try to pay everything with one easily administered tax, like a gas tax, instead of adding on massive administration and overhead costs.

As far as infrastructure, Vancouver only has new transit infrastructure. Everything else is crap, so while surrey hasn't seen a whole lot since the expo line, it has had a lot more overall investment over than Vancouver has recently.

BTW, you're in IGEN? I just graduated from mining, what year are you in?

[igeneer]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

The thing is, there's no point in stratifying your taxes like that, especially when you're targeting the same group over and over again. You may as well just try to pay everything with one easily administered tax, like a gas tax, instead of adding on massive administration and overhead costs.

As far as infrastructure, Vancouver only has new transit infrastructure. Everything else is crap, so while surrey hasn't seen a whole lot since the expo line, it has had a lot more overall investment over than Vancouver has recently.

BTW, you're in IGEN? I just graduated from mining, what year are you in?

Hello fellow Engineer! If I tell you what year I graduated in, you can probably figure out who I am (2007).

It seems like a complicated issue, but I like the gas tax idea. It just needs to be much higher in the lower mainland than it already is... As far as a toll on roads, we in North America are spoiled rotten when it comes to cheap driving. That's the only reason, other than population density that I can see as a barrier to smart growth with rapid transit. Vancouver will never be the "Greenest City" if it's a cheap city to drive in.

Even though Vancouver is a relatively new city, it's going to be a real challenge to build the UBC Line, either above ground or below. Lots of engineering work to be had, which I'm sure lots of us are excited about! Let's just hope they make the right decision in the end.

[crazyjoeda]

Skytrain in Surrey shouldn't be expanded much further and certainly not into White Rock or Langley. Surrey, Langley and Abbotsford should be served by an expanded West Coast Express system. Much of the basic rail infrastructure is already in place with a reasonable investment a new WCE line could run between Vancouver, Surrey and Langley. Skytrain to Langley would cause more crowded trains.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by huenthar

I hope BARSTA members west of MacDonald enjoying today's Greek Festival (and all the extra business and, more importantly, exposure) realize they will never get to have a street festival on Broadway ever again with a surface rail line...

I'm afraid that argument isn't going to fly. There are plenty of street festival closures on trolley routes - the solution is simply to serve the routes using diesel buses which bypass the closed areas. Festivals are scheduled for non-peak times so it's not as if the diesels can't handle the load.

[nname]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm afraid that argument isn't going to fly. There are plenty of street festival closures on trolley routes - the solution is simply to serve the routes using diesel buses which bypass the closed areas. Festivals are scheduled for non-peak times so it's not as if the diesels can't handle the load.

So we spend billions of dollar for a system that is going to be shut down a couple of days a year during this kind of festival? Rapid transit supposed to be reliable, but closure like this take away the reliability from the system. As for shuttle.. take Expo Line for example. When a segment of the line is down, tons of people have to transfer from SkyTrain to Bus and to SkyTrain again. The buses are packed, stations are jammed (not only the ones that are affected, but in nearby stations as well), and people spend extra hour to go their destination. Can you imagine if this on Broadway? And also, who will pay for the extra bus and staff?

I can't come up with an example anywhere in the world that have their rapid transit system (ie. not street car or trolley) shut down due to this kind of festival. Occasional malfunction, weather, protest, riot, security reason, ... that's understandable, but a festival!?

[jsbertram]

does anyone remember the Olympics?

Remember how the C-Line trains ran with few failures under Granville Street while 200,000 people were partying on the street above?

Remember how the C-Line train was able to clear lineups at the stations in less than an hour (usually less than a half hour)?

Any buses that were supposed to travel though downtown were simply turned around, or they bypassed downtown (typically using Main St and Broadway) so they weren't stuck in the downtown crowds.

[SpongeG]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm afraid that argument isn't going to fly. There are plenty of street festival closures on trolley routes - the solution is simply to serve the routes using diesel buses which bypass the closed areas. Festivals are scheduled for non-peak times so it's not as if the diesels can't handle the load.

yup

Portlands Max runs right through the market and the streetcar runs right through the university campus - they do well - it can be done

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by crazyjoeda

Skytrain in Surrey shouldn't be expanded much further and certainly not into White Rock or Langley. Surrey, Langley and Abbotsford should be served by an expanded West Coast Express system. Much of the basic rail infrastructure is already in place with a reasonable investment a new WCE line could run between Vancouver, Surrey and Langley. Skytrain to Langley would cause more crowded trains.

The simplest concept is to extend the SkyTrain to Langley via the Fraser Highway and run either B-Line buses or LRTs on E-W and N-S roads to connect with the SkyTrain stations that cross these major streets.


If WCE can get their trains past Mission & over the Fraser to Abbotsford and Chilliwack, I can see people 'reverse commute' from the Langley area to Abbotsford to catch the WCE instead of making the full-length trip from Langley to Vancouver on SkyTrain.

If the Evergreen & UBC Lines are built, and WCE extended to Abbotsford and Chilliwack, I can see a commuter start their trip on WCE, and switch to Skytrain at Poco or Waterfront to do the 2nd leg of their commute.

[racc]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I'm afraid that argument isn't going to fly. There are plenty of street festival closures on trolley routes - the solution is simply to serve the routes using diesel buses which bypass the closed areas. Festivals are scheduled for non-peak times so it's not as if the diesels can't handle the load.

Actually this is a big problem in Vancouver. There are not enough diesel buses available to allow for all the street closures people want on some weekends. This is why there is only a maximum of three closures on main streets for Car Free day. With rail transit on Broadway, there would even be fewer diesel buses to handle more passengers. Also, with the transit underground, many people can get to the festival by transit instead of clogging up the neighbourhood with traffic. If SkyTrain is used, it would be easy and inexpensive to dramatically increase the service to meet the demand of people getting to Greek Days and other festivals.

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by invisibleairwaves

^That's not so great for people in Fleetwood, Langley, or Cloverdale though. Fraser Highway is a great route that cuts a straight line through some of the most built-up areas of Surrey and Langley, why not use it? It's all about cutting down commute times, and a diagonal is shorter than two sides of a square.

First to all talking about the surrey route maybe we should move it to the surrey expansion thread

and to reply to this...yes fraser hwy would be way faster but my route idea would be a better for connections around the area, Newton has and will remain the most populated area of Surrey. To avoid putting a train there would be just plan stupid in my mind. As for fleetwood it could easily be served by a bust route to skytrain. I mean in best we would expand the skytrain right into fleetwood and that would be it for skytrain. Plus with its own lane right of ways this could still cut down commuting times. The track and right away is there for a good chunk of it already.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by nname

So we spend billions of dollar for a system that is going to be shut down a couple of days a year during this kind of festival? Rapid transit supposed to be reliable, but closure like this take away the reliability from the system.

Again, festivals are not run during rush hours on work days. Planned outages do not make a system "unreliable", unplanned ones do.

Originally Posted by racc

Actually this is a big problem in Vancouver. There are not enough diesel buses available to allow for all the street closures people want on some weekends.

Well, that's certainly manageable through simple scheduling of the festivals. I've gotta believe that most festival organizers wouldn't want too much competition from other events anyway.

I'm actually on your side, you know. I think any at-grade option for Broadway is completely idiotic and I can't believe that any unbiased study would end up recommending one. But I really don't think you should waste ammo with this particular argument because it's just not gonna fly, IMHO.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Gordon

That would make sense. The Mayors Council has to start using all of it's funding tools including a Vehicle Levy. Road Pricing requires the governments okay which may be a long time in coming. I some times wonder if the Provincial Government is serious about having Translink properly funded allowing it to expand when needed.

I don't like the vehicle levy for the simple reason that it has no relation to the distance traveled. My gf and I find it necessary to keep a car (hard to argue in today's society), but we share a single car, and drive maybe 6000 kms/year. How is that comparable to the average person that commutes 50 kms/day and puts 25,000 kms/yr on their car.

[Gordon]

Then main problems with at-grade LRT on the broadway corridor is that many of the businesses will lose their street parking but more importantly the line would require sub 3 min headways which would dramatically affect traffic flows on all major North South arteries.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by nname

I can't come up with an example anywhere in the world that have their rapid transit system (ie. not street car or trolley) shut down due to this kind of festival. Occasional malfunction, weather, protest, riot, security reason, ... that's understandable, but a festival!?

Imagine if we had LRT downtown instead of Skytrain. The Olympics would have been quite a mess. All the "ding, ding" in the world wouldn't have gotten the crowds out of the way.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Imagine if we had LRT downtown instead of Skytrain. The Olympics would have been quite a mess. All the "ding, ding" in the world wouldn't have gotten the crowds out of the way.

True, but think of all the "Kennys" who would have gotten ....(you know).... mmmuahahaha
(it has been estimated by sociologists that true psychopaths constitute around four percent of society in all walks of life, and their numbers are increasing due to learned environmental values: a total interest for the self, and a total disregard for the well-being, pain, or suffering of others ..... what a relief !!!)

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

The simplest concept is to extend the SkyTrain to Langley via the Fraser Highway and run either B-Line buses or LRTs on E-W and N-S roads to connect with the SkyTrain stations that cross these major streets.

Is Langley such a lucrative destination for SkyTrain that it's worth bypassing Newton? I don't think so, I would think that Newton would be the priority. Newton is also a lot closer than Langley. Fraser Hwy goes through mostly rural areas away from town centers. To build 11 km (or whatever) of extra guideway through rural fields just to service Langley seems a little excessive to me. That's a lot of extra trains, a lot of expensive guideway, all to serve a community that ideally should not grow as quickly as Surrey.

[twoNeurons]

As for street festivals...

let's think about this rationally for a moment...

For trolley buses, which have less capacity than LRT trains, the entire route is switched to diesel, right?

What would you do with Surface LRT?

Stop the LRT before the festival area, tell everyone to get off and switch them to a bus, to meet up with another LRT on the other end of the festival?

Practically speaking, you'd have to replace the whole route with diesel during the festival. Even on off-peak days, I doubt diesel would have the capacity to replace LRT traffic.

Given that a lane would also be taken up by the LRT, it would be a double blow. Unless the tracks are in the street and buses could travel on that lane.

I think it's more likely that the street festivals would have to be held elsewhere, like on 4th, or the LRT would have to be allowed through the festival ( at a reduced speed, no doubt ) I'm not against LRT, I'm just stating that you can't just shut down a train line for a festival. It's a fixture and should be thought of as somewhat permanent.

A quick word on Surrey... it's perfectly built for LRT. Long blocks would enable fast travel times and it would be quite a bit less expensive than SkyTrain along 104th and KGH. We likely won't see anything more than commuter rail to Langley in the next few decades.

Best of all, there's ROW for it already that goes right through Bridgeview(Scott Road station area), Newton and Cloverdale. In addition, Translink bought up some properties a few years ago in Newton.

[crazyjoeda]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

The simplest concept is to extend the SkyTrain to Langley via the Fraser Highway and run either B-Line buses or LRTs on E-W and N-S roads to connect with the SkyTrain stations that cross these major streets.

If WCE can get their trains past Mission & over the Fraser to Abbotsford and Chilliwack, I can see people 'reverse commute' from the Langley area to Abbotsford to catch the WCE instead of making the full-length trip from Langley to Vancouver on SkyTrain.

If the Evergreen & UBC Lines are built, and WCE extended to Abbotsford and Chilliwack, I can see a commuter start their trip on WCE, and switch to Skytrain at Poco or Waterfront to do the 2nd leg of their commute.

Skytrain from Vancouver to Langley is dumb. The distance is simply to far it would take 1.5 hours to travel from end to end and the small trains will be full by the time they reach New West. Look at cities like Toronto and London their metro systems serve the densely populated central city districts and fast limited stop commuter rail is used for travel from the suburbs.

Translink needs to develop a new WCE line from Vancouver to Surrey and Langley. Ultimately LRT could one day be built to connect town centres with in Surrey/Langley and commuter rail stations, but for now Translink needs implement new B-Line routes south of the Fraser.