Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Waders]

Surrey versus Vancouver?
Metro Vancouver versus Translink (or the Province)?
What is going on here?

Metro red flags TransLink plan
By Jeff Nagel - BC Local News
Published: June 28, 2010 4:00 PM

TransLink's stop-gap plan to keep rapid transit expansion on hold will frustrate the region's progress, the Metro Vancouver board warned Friday.

TransLink's board is expected to pass the draft 2011 plan this summer.

Because it doesn't propose any further increases in taxes or fares beyond the rate of inflation, area mayors don't get a vote on it.

If no new agreement is reached with the province to fund TransLink expansion, Metro board chair Lois Jackson said the transit system will be increasingly unable to keep pace with the region's growth or to help achieve other goals like greenhouse gas emission cuts.

"The plan is conjured by a group of people who have nothing to do with our planning processes or our growth plan," Jackson said.

Mayors last year agreed to a $130-million increase in TransLink funding, through higher property tax, fuel tax and fares, to stabilize the system while a long-term refinancing agreement with the province is pursued.

The board flagged several concerns with the new plan, including TransLink's intent to raise fares again in 2013, the extension of student transit U-Passes to more campuses and the impact of a move to restructure bus routes.

Bus service in the rapidly urbanizing parts of the region, such as the South of Fraser and northeast areas, should be explicitly protected during route rationalization, a staff report said.

The board also questioned TransLink plans to spend $180 million to install gates for SkyTrain and adopt smart card payment.

And it called for accelerated study of ways to make motorists pay more for TransLink while deterring driving through "vehicle-based revenue sources" and other transportation demand mechanisms.

Without new funding, TransLink can't afford to build and run the $1.4-billion Evergreen Line to Coquitlam.

Coquitlam Mayor Richard Stewart said he's "100 per cent" confident the new SkyTrain line will be built, noting government engineers are planning precise details ahead of an expected construction start next year.

If a new accord for TransLink is struck with the province, the 2011 plan could quickly be replaced with a new version, which could again see mayors vote on higher fees and taxes.

One of the options proposed and shelved last year was to generate $150 million a year by charging an annual vehicle levy that would average $122 per vehicle, depending on fuel efficiency.

Surrey versus Vancouver

There are growing signs Vancouver and Surrey are jockeying for position to be next in line for rapid transit expansion.

Vancouver officials are strongly promoting the need for a new line west on the congested Broadway corridor to UBC.

TransLink is studying both that idea and options for rapid transit extension in Surrey – connecting the SkyTrain terminus there to Langley and White Rock.

The transportation authority hasn't yet decided which extension should get priority.

But the Metro board voted June 25 to urge TransLink to pursue the South of Fraser expansion through Surrey next, after the Evergreen Line is built.

Vancouver Coun. Raymond Louie tried to amend the motion to put the Broadway extension on equal footing, but the board rejected the idea, saying priority for the Surrey extension fits the region's growth strategy.

"It wasn't well-received," Coquitlam Mayor Richard Stewart said of the amendment.

"Vancouver needs to embrace the rest of the region and the enormous needs the rest of the region has."

Surrey Coun. Marvin Hunt said much of the growth in the region is expected to come to the South of Fraser area in the decades ahead, adding Broadway merchants – in contrast – are resisting a SkyTrain system and the higher densities that would result.

"It was very clear from the beginning this was Vancouver's attempt to pull the Broadway line ahead of everything else."

Source: http://www.bclocalnews.com/greater_vancouver/bowenislandundercurrent/news/97352574.html

[invisibleairwaves]

As a Surrey resident and transit user who is constantly frustrated by the quality of service here...I'd like to see the Broadway line done first. There's no doubt the Broadway extension would be more heavily used, and be more beneficial to the region as a whole. That said, let's get some freaking B-lines south of the river already.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Above all, the ridership from the East is where the extension will get most of its ridership. NOT from the Canada Line

Wait, that's an interesting claim. I've never seen numbers to support or refute that. Which of these sources will bring more riders to/from the Broadway line:

1) the old 98 b-line corridor (north and south)
or
2) the old 99 b-line corridor (to the east)?

I know 99 b-line carried more people than 98 b-line, but how many of them came from points east of Cambie? How many people on 99 b-line came from points north and south?

In other words, if we ignore the dangling tail of VCC-Clark for a moment, then which would be the preferred route for a no-transfer line to Broadway - a direct ride from downtown, or a direct ride from the east?

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by huenthar

Brand new argument against BARSTA:

(drumroll...)

.
.
.

I hope BARSTA members west of MacDonald enjoying today's Greek Festival (and all the extra business and, more importantly, exposure) realize they will never get to have a street festival on Broadway ever again with a surface rail line...

(ka-ching!)

I can just hear that conversation:

"You can't run the Broadway streetcars between McDonald and Alma on Sunday because of the Greek Festival. You'll have to run buses up & down 10th between McDonald and Alma instead, and have the streetcars run in two sections - one between Commercial and McDonald and the other between Alma and UBC. Riders heading to UBC can simply switch to a bus at McDonald, then back to a streetcar at Alma (or if you're heading to Commercial, switch to a bus at Alma, then back to a streetcar at McDonald. Easy Peasy"

Or you can keep the streetcars running and "Ding Ding Ding" to warn the street partiers to stay clear of the streetcar. Which might work until the Ouzo starts flowing.

Lets see how easily buses move through Commercial Dr when the World Cup wraps up on the 10th.

[red-paladin]

But I can see point of the Surrey side too. They see the people that live in the Broadway corridor aren't co-operating and don't want it. It makes them angry when everyone in Surrey wants more skytrain.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Wait, that's an interesting claim. I've never seen numbers to support or refute that. Which of these sources will bring more riders to/from the Broadway line:

1) the old 98 b-line corridor (north and south)
or
2) the old 99 b-line corridor (to the east)?

I know 99 b-line carried more people than 98 b-line, but how many of them came from points east of Cambie? How many people on 99 b-line came from points north and south?

In other words, if we ignore the dangling tail of VCC-Clark for a moment, then which would be the preferred route for a no-transfer line to Broadway - a direct ride from downtown, or a direct ride from the east?

As of today, I'd say the 99 B-Line's top ridership stations are:
1) Commercial or UBC
2) UBC or Commercial
3) Cambie-Canada Line
4) Main Street
5) Granville (down considerably since the termination of the 98 of course, but still high)

It's true that a lot of 99 ridership comes from the Canada Line today, but it certainly isn't more than what the Expo and Millennium Lines feed off at Commercial/Broadway from the suburbs. When the Millennium Line is seamlessly extended to Broadway West and UBC, this will only increase eastern ridership much more. Don't forget that a seamless Millennium Line train ride to Broadway West is also a seamless train ride along the Evergreen Line. The future extension, should it be SkyTrain, will be both the Evergreen and Millennium Lines.

That's why seamless and direct connections from the East is much more important than the Canada Line. But yes, with the Broadway SkyTrain extension of the Millennium Line, Canada Line ridership will obviously grow considerably as well.

Having the Broadway extension as an expansion of the Canada Line isn't an option at all, in my opinion. The cost for one, and secondly the limitations of the Canada Line.

[madmigs]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Wait, that's an interesting claim. I've never seen numbers to support or refute that. Which of these sources will bring more riders to/from the Broadway line:

1) the old 98 b-line corridor (north and south)
or
2) the old 99 b-line corridor (to the east)?

I know 99 b-line carried more people than 98 b-line, but how many of them came from points east of Cambie? How many people on 99 b-line came from points north and south?

In other words, if we ignore the dangling tail of VCC-Clark for a moment, then which would be the preferred route for a no-transfer line to Broadway - a direct ride from downtown, or a direct ride from the east?

I'm confused, don't we already have a direct ride from downtown called the canada line? Having a route that comes south from downtown and curves onto broadway doesn't really work and which end of broadway would you link into? Canada Line right now is in the middle of broadway and routing off of that wouldn't really work, besides if the destination is UBC, its kinda pointless routing downtown then back to broadway and on to UBC.

As for traffic coming from points east of Cambie - ever see the lineups at broadway/commercial in the mornings going west? Or the traffic coming from Joyce and Metrotown destined for UBC? Keep in mind that if the UBC line is fast(aka skytrain) a lot of people that currently take the 41/49/16/25/routes from waterfront/etc to UBC will probably take the canada/expo line to broadway and then transfer to the UBC line, as it would be much faster than the existing routes. Thus allowing translink to re-allocate a lot of buses from those routes to other routes due to the reduced passenger load. I guess my point is a UBC skytrain line isn't just a replacement for the 99 but will have an impact on most routes destined for UBC.

[jsbertram]

Isn't UBC Line planning further along than Surrey's expansion?

If UBC Line is ready to go (despite the NIMBYs) first, and Surrey is still several years away from preferred route decisions & technology, Vancouver should get the green light ahead of Surrey just like Evergreen will (likely) get the go-ahead before UBC line.

When Evergreen gets finished, their 97 B-Line bendy-buses can be reused on a new B-Line route. When the UBC line is finished, the bendy-buses on the 99 B-Line can be re-allocated to other new B-Line routes also.

I don't remember reading what route got the 98 B-Line buses after the C-Line opened last year.

[jsbertram]

I fail to see the point of making the new UBC line anything other than a westward extension of the Millennium line. Using any other rail technology just adds unnecessary complications to the Skytrain network.

Where UBC line would cross the Canada Line at Broadway & Cambie (City Hall), the UBC line tunnel will have to be built under the Canada Line, so it shouldn't be difficult to have the UBC line mezzanine and platforms connect directly to the Canada Line when they are built.

Theres no reason to connect the rails between two non-compatible subways, when it is easier to build stairs, escalators and elevators for the passengers to make the connection between Canada line and UBC line.

Operating Evergreen / Millennium / UBC as the East-West route, Expo (Waterfront to King George) as the diagonal route, and Canada line (Waterfront to Richmond) as the North-South route keeps them operating independent of each other so jam-up on one route doesn't cause problems with the other routes. There would be a Lougheed - Columbia shuttle to give service to the two stations on the east edge of New West.

[nname]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

When Evergreen gets finished, their 97 B-Line bendy-buses can be reused on a new B-Line route. When the UBC line is finished, the bendy-buses on the 99 B-Line can be re-allocated to other new B-Line routes also.

I don't remember reading what route got the 98 B-Line buses after the C-Line opened last year.

Very few of those "bendy-bus" are used on the 97. During weekday, they're mostly used on the 160 and 143 instead (which swaps with the 701 buses in the evening). After Evergreen, what I predict (based on the plan) is:

- The bendy-bus remains on the 143 while it is being upgraded to a FTN route. All other ones from the 160 and 97 would be used for Burquitlam-SFU shuttle.
- All of the regular 40ft bus on the 160 will remain on the [truncated] 160 route, which would also become FTN service.
- Buses from 169, 179, and 189 would be re-allocated to a new Burke Mountain/Coast Meridian FTN route.

So what's left in the end would probably be the ~7 standard 40ft bus that are currently used to (partially) run the 97. So don't expect the saving from Evergreen is enough to run a B-Line... Maybe a 15-30min frequency medium-long suburban route instead.. In fact, the proposed Coquitlam - Guildford route requires exactly 7 buses.

99 B-Line, on the other hand, would free up enough bus to run 2 B-Lines with reasonable headway.. but by the time UBC line is built, those buses are probably near their end-of-life...

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Isn't UBC Line planning further along than Surrey's expansion?

If UBC Line is ready to go (despite the NIMBYs) first, and Surrey is still several years away from preferred route decisions & technology, Vancouver should get the green light ahead of Surrey just like Evergreen will (likely) get the go-ahead before UBC line.

When Evergreen gets finished, their 97 B-Line bendy-buses can be reused on a new B-Line route. When the UBC line is finished, the bendy-buses on the 99 B-Line can be re-allocated to other new B-Line routes also.

I don't remember reading what route got the 98 B-Line buses after the C-Line opened last year.

last i heard most of those buses from the 98 where to come to surrey for the 399 route. But that got put back due to lack of funding.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Whalleyboy

last i heard most of those buses from the 98 where to come to surrey for the 399 route. But that got put back due to lack of funding.

Yeah. Instead, the were distributed to other routes, mostly for the 480 Richmond-UBC.

While I understand Surrey wants better transit, I'm not sure if it should come in the form of SkyTrain or LRT just yet. It would probably be better if they first improve their local bus system and add a new layer of Express/BRT routes in order to assess the need of rail rapid transit for specific routes (i.e. developing a future business plan based on current ridership, projected ridership, and ability to generate even more ridership).

[Gordon]

That would make sense. The Mayors Council has to start using all of it's funding tools including a Vehicle Levy. Road Pricing requires the governments okay which may be a long time in coming. I some times wonder if the Provincial Government is serious about having Translink properly funded allowing it to expand when needed.

[igeneer]

if the people in the valley want us (people in Vancouver) to pay for the UBC line, why doesn't the city impose a congestion fee...let's say just for the downtown peninsula to start? I'm sure it's been brought up before, but won't they be able to make shit loads of money with a congestion fee?

It's time to think like the Europeans do a bit and be proactive.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by igeneer

if the people in the valley want us (people in Vancouver) to pay for the UBC line, why doesn't the city impose a congestion fee...let's say just for the downtown peninsula to start? I'm sure it's been brought up before, but won't they be able to make shit loads of money with a congestion fee?

It's time to think like the Europeans do a bit and be proactive.

Yes, a congestion charge like in London or peak time surcharges similar to Singapore could be an option. I honestly don't see downtown merchants going for it though. The thing is, it's a bit of a chicken-and-egg. These cities already have extensive transit options, so giving up the car is an option. Generally, I still wouldn't want to be without my car in Vancouver.

[mr.x]

Downtown Vancouver is already in great competition with the suburbs, the last thing you would want to do is have a toll just to get into the city centre.

[Zassk]

This probably belongs in another thread, but it seems to me that Surrey needs much more than just a single 6-km extension of SkyTrain. It needs 2-3 lines converging on Surrey City Center in order to realize its role in the LRSP. And that's simply unaffordable using SkyTrain technology.

I would rather see the Broadway extension go ahead as the "last" SkyTrain project, and a separate $2 billion plan to build 3 LRT lines between Surrey and its neighbours over the space of 15 years or so. Maybe one to Langley via Guildford, one to White Rock via Newton, and one down Scott Road.

As the suburbs are getting more ambitious with their own infrastructure projects, I can also foresee the day when some places build their own shorter LRT or streetcar lines (5 km or less) that intersect with the rapid transit network.

[igeneer]

Well, I'm not sure what the people in London thought when they were pressed with their congestion fee... but it probably wasn't initially positive

I'm not saying it would work here, but how else do you tax people who are more directly paying for future rapid transit. I guess another way to do it would be to tax businesses and local residents more. We all know that the only thing that will ultimately stop construction of rapid transit along Broadway is a lack of funding. It's already put the Evergreen Line in limbo.

Also, gasoline could be taxed a lot more for the lower mainland. The ICBC can't really justify raising rates even more, seeing as we pay more than double what other provinces do. Raise gas prices, raise the cost of driving a car based on your car's fuel efficiency, and but don't raise transit fares.

The whole argument for RRT vs. Tram is irrelevant right now when there is no funding or is none in the foreseeable future. That decision will come down to how much each option costs, and how much opposition there is to tunneling along Broadway. I, personally, am totally in support of the RRT option to UBC...If the Canada Line is any indication of how short-sighted the 'decision makers' are, we are in for a real ride with the UBC extension.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by igeneer

if the people in the valley want us (people in Vancouver) to pay for the UBC line, why doesn't the city impose a congestion fee...let's say just for the downtown peninsula to start? I'm sure it's been brought up before, but won't they be able to make shit loads of money with a congestion fee?

It's time to think like the Europeans do a bit and be proactive.

It seems the Surrey-ites have conveniently forgotten that for the last quarter century people living west of Main St in Vancouver have been paying for the Expo Skytrain line that only goes to downtown Vancouver, and then heads South-East to Burnaby and Surrey. Later we've been paying for the Millennium line that starts at Clarke Dr and heads East to Burnaby and Lougheed Mall.

I doubt anyone living west of Cambie has used these lines much since they were built, but they have dutifully paid their taxes and hydro bills that have partially paid for these services over the decades.

With the opening of the Canada Line, Richmond finally got Skytrain after spending 30 years paying their taxes that helped other cities get rapid transit.

When the Evergreen line starts construction & goes into operation, Vancouver taxpayers will be paying their portion (from BC Taxes, Fed taxes, city taxes, HST, transit fares, Hydro fees &tc) towards the Evergreen line along with the rest of the taxpayers in the Vancouver area (including PoCo and Coq. residents who will benefit the most from this transit expansion).

When the UBC line gets built & put into operation, Vancouver taxpayers should understand that ALL of the taxpayers in the area will be paying for it in one way or another, just as the Surrey taxpayers should understand that ALL of the Vancouver area taxpayers have been paying for their Skytrain and other transit over the years, and everyone will be paying for the future Surrey expansions.

And the North Shore residents continue to pay their taxes with little expectation that they will be getting better rapid transit anytime soon.

[invisibleairwaves]

Who is saying that Surrey should refuse to pay for the UBC line? You guys are fighting strawmen.

This probably belongs in another thread, but it seems to me that Surrey needs much more than just a single 6-km extension of SkyTrain. It needs 2-3 lines converging on Surrey City Center in order to realize its role in the LRSP. And that's simply unaffordable using SkyTrain technology.

I would rather see the Broadway extension go ahead as the "last" SkyTrain project, and a separate $2 billion plan to build 3 LRT lines between Surrey and its neighbours over the space of 15 years or so. Maybe one to Langley via Guildford, one to White Rock via Newton, and one down Scott Road.

As the suburbs are getting more ambitious with their own infrastructure projects, I can also foresee the day when some places build their own shorter LRT or streetcar lines (5 km or less) that intersect with the rapid transit network.

I can't see LRT being much cheaper than Skytrain extensions. And the way Surrey is currently laid out, I can't see much of a need for more than 2 lines: one running diagonally along the Fraser Highway corridor, and one north/south route through Newton. The only place I think LRT might work well is a connection to Guildford, as opposed to a rather awkward diversion on the way to Langley.

Look what you've done, you've made me bust out MS Paint...