Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[lightrail]

I don't really understand why we're wasting money deciding on technology. It seems to be a given to me. Here's why.

Skytrain has been determined to be the best business case option for Evergreen. Presumably on interlining, speed and capacity verse construction cost. This is for a line that is expected to generated only 25,000 riders per day.

Now to Broadway. Why would anybody with at least half a brain pick anything less than Skytrain for Broadway, where the expected ridership is 200,000 people per day? What kind of insane thinking does it take to determine that a line carrying 25,000 people a day requires SkyTrain technology, while I line carrying 200,000 per day can make do with light rail.

Can you imagine if light rail is picked for broadway?

Tri-cities get to spread out in luxury, put their bags on seats and relax and enjoy a nice fast run to Broadway-Commerical. Now comes the fun, to go down to street level, cross some lanes of traffic to a small and inadequate platform and then fight to get on an overcrowded LRT for a slow ride down broadway. Oh, look, the LRT is stopped because some moron is illegally turning left.

Sorry, but the whole idea of LRT down Broadway, given the Evergreen decision, just seems pointless to me.

Some people, and by some people, I mean translink planners, have this nostalgic romantic notion of streetcars running down the middle of streets somehow make those street more human friendly. GET THAT OUT OF YOUR HEAD. This is not Europe, this is North America. What works in Europe does not necessarily work here. Besides, most European cities have much less traffic and larger cities (of the size of Vancouver) have underground lines in congested areas.

[Zassk]

To me there are only two real possibilities, and both involve tunneling.

1) Bombardier wins contract, builds line as an extension of Millennium Line, and probably subcontracts the tunnel construction to SNC-Lavalin (as was done for M-Line guideway).

2) SNC-Lavalin wins contract, builds the tunnel itself, and ties the track to Canada Line (maybe 4-car Rotems). Bombardier is subcontracted for a 2.5 km extension of M-Line from VCC to Cambie.

Before you scoff at #2, consider that SNC-Lavalin can offer a no-transfer ride between downtown and Broadway/UBC, which Bombardier is unable to offer. Obviously this would require some changes like downtown station expansions.

SNC-Lavalin will probably be involved in this project no matter what (either as prime or subcontractor), so I would expect them to submit some kind of proposal that leverages their Canada Line.

To me, this is the only conceivable proposal that could cause things to turn out differently than we expect.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Zassk

To me there are only two real possibilities, and both involve tunneling.

1) Bombardier wins contract, builds line as an extension of Millennium Line, and probably subcontracts the tunnel construction to SNC-Lavalin (as was done for M-Line guideway).


2) SNC-Lavalin wins contract, builds the tunnel itself, and ties the track to Canada Line (maybe 4-car Rotems). Bombardier is subcontracted for a 2.5 km extension of M-Line from VCC to Cambie.

Before you scoff at #2, consider that SNC-Lavalin can offer a no-transfer ride between downtown and Broadway/UBC, which Bombardier is unable to offer. Obviously this would require some changes like downtown station expansions.

SNC-Lavalin will probably be involved in this project no matter what (either as prime or subcontractor), so I would expect them to submit some kind of proposal that leverages their Canada Line.

To me, this is the only conceivable proposal that could cause things to turn out differently than we expect.

1) Yes.

2) No. The main issue with the Broadway West extension is cost. Attempting to tie it with the Canada Line would only increase costs even more.

And it's not worth the 9-figure plus cost to make it an extension of the Canada Line, not to mention that SkyTrain and the Canada Line Rotem's are not compatible at all...different propulsion systems, track size, etc.

Having an interchange between Broadway West SkyTrain and the Canada Line at Broadway/Cambie/City Hall would be enough leverage for SNC-Lavalin as is...there's going to be a huge wave in new ridership on the Canada Line with the future interchange/transfer (which I think could push the Canada Line to max. capacity very quickly), and going beyond that would mean the Canada Line would take in far more than it can chew.

In some cases, like Lougheed Station, the benefits outweigh the costs of having a seamless transferless train ride. But this is not a case.


By the time the Broadway West extension is built, expect to see 200,000 passengers per day within a year of opening.


And on the topic of the future interchange at Broadway/Cambie, the underground passageways between both stations need to be big and wide.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Zassk

2) SNC-Lavalin wins contract, builds the tunnel itself, and ties the track to Canada Line (maybe 4-car Rotems). Bombardier is subcontracted for a 2.5 km extension of M-Line from VCC to Cambie.

Before you scoff at #2, consider that SNC-Lavalin can offer a no-transfer ride between downtown and Broadway/UBC, which Bombardier is unable to offer. Obviously this would require some changes like downtown station expansions.

Won't be happening. The UBC Line is one project from UBC to Commercial. The only thing that could happen besides the Millennium Line extension, if RRT-only is chosen, is a separate "UBC Line" from Commercial to UBC that does not involve the Millennium Line.

The Canada Line did not have this kind of integration built in mind and it would be a huge pain to dig up Cambie again in order to create tracks to branch of the Canada Line. Like I said in the other threads, even though many other systems in the world, including the West Coast Express, use train cars longer than the platforms, the problem with using longer trains on the Canada Line is the close proximity between the switch tracks and the platform. At Waterfront Station, I don't think a four-car ROTEM can fit as part of the train will still be on the switch track and expanding Waterfront would be an engineering challenge.

We can also discuss the cons with interlining systems like that. The Canada Line is already interlined: Airport and Richmond branches. At those branches, the frequencies are restricted. If you add a Canada Line branch off to UBC, you create an even greater restriction for the Airport and Richmond Branches, and another restriction on the Broadway portion in terms of frequency.

I can see the costs of doing this would be significantly higher than the cost of extending the Millennium Line.

[mr.x]

And for the 496th time, I shall mention how it sucks that the Canada Line lacks any sort of flexibility for expansion and integration.

[Zassk]

^ Of course there are issues, but don't you expect SNC-Lavalin would submit a bid of some kind that uses the same technology as they built last time (whether there is any interlining or not)? Perhaps all the way to Commercial as you say?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by Zassk

^ Of course there are issues, but don't you expect SNC-Lavalin would submit a bid of some kind that uses the same technology as they built last time (whether there is any interlining or not)? Perhaps all the way to Commercial as you say?

No. The difference is that this time around we're not telling them to design it for us, rather we the public are designing it ourselves and determining what this line should be. Translink/MoT will release RFP for bids to extend the Millennium Line SkyTrain infrastructure to Broadway West/UBC. It won't be anywhere as open ended as the Canada Line design phase.

Not to mention that SNC-Lavalin would likely realize the costs are not worth the benefits, and it would also only make the whole P3 situation much more complex.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by mr.x

No. The difference is that this time around we're not telling them to design it for us, rather we the public are designing it ourselves and determining what this line should be. Translink/MoT will release RFP for bids to extend the Millennium Line SkyTrain infrastructure to Broadway West/UBC. It won't be anywhere as open ended as the Canada Line design phase.

Not to mention that SNC-Lavalin would likely realize the costs are not worth the benefits, and it would also only make the whole P3 situation much more complex.

I could "potentially" see Broadway Line being a P3, like Canada line, with SNC being an interested party.

If SNC were to win the bidding process I doubt the C line and Broadway line would be interchanged for passenger service, however, a track connecting them could be built for the sole purpose of utilizing the existing C Line OMC.

If the Libs are in power and push the Broadway line through, I cannot see them abandoning their P3 ideology, especially considering the up-front cash a private company brings to the table. Edit: A big part of any bid by SNC I think would seek to spend money on said track connection and thus lowering bid due to no OMC req'd.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

I could "potentially" see Broadway Line being a P3, like Canada line, with SNC being an interested party.

If SNC were to win the bidding process I doubt the C line and Broadway line would be interchanged for passenger service, however, a track connecting them could be built for the sole purpose of utilizing the existing C Line OMC.

If the Libs are in power and push the Broadway line through, I cannot see them abandoning their P3 ideology, especially considering the up-front cash a private company brings to the table. Edit: A big part of any bid by SNC I think would seek to spend money on said track connection and thus lowering bid due to no OMC req'd.

I disagree very much to this post.

It is extremely unlikely. You would be adding hundreds and hundreds of millions in cost to make this happen. Do remember that the Canada Line south of Broadway is a shallow stacked tunnel, it would be extremely expensive to connect it with the Canada Line.

And if you interline it with the Canada Line, that means you can't interline it with SkyTrain Millennium. The Millennium Line ridership from the east will be much, much greater than interlined ridership from the Canada Line.


The Canada Line OMC at Bridgeport will have barely enough space (or even expansion space) in the future to accommodate the cars needed for the Canada Line's future demands nevermind the need to be the storage yard for an extension that would see 150,000 plus daily passengers.


The Millennium Line is the most logical and only extension option.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by mr.x

I disagree very much to this post.

It is extremely unlikely. You would be adding hundreds and hundreds of millions in cost to make this happen. Do remember that the Canada Line south of Broadway is a shallow stacked tunnel, it would be extremely expensive to connect it with the Canada Line.

And if you interline it with the Canada Line, that means you can't interline it with SkyTrain Millennium. The Millennium Line ridership from the east will be much, much greater than interlined ridership from the Canada Line.


The Canada Line OMC at Bridgeport will have barely enough space (or even expansion space) in the future to accommodate the cars needed for the Canada Line's future demands nevermind the need to be the storage yard for an extension that would see 150,000 plus daily passengers.


The Millennium Line is the most logical and only extension option.

100's of millions?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

I could "potentially" see Broadway Line being a P3, like Canada line, with SNC being an interested party.

If SNC were to win the bidding process I doubt the C line and Broadway line would be interchanged for passenger service, however, a track connecting them could be built for the sole purpose of utilizing the existing C Line OMC.

If the Libs are in power and push the Broadway line through, I cannot see them abandoning their P3 ideology, especially considering the up-front cash a private company brings to the table. Edit: A big part of any bid by SNC I think would seek to spend money on said track connection and thus lowering bid due to no OMC req'd.

Excuse me, but I think that it is essential to the system to interline it as an extension of the Lillenium Line (as Mr. X said, huge volumes of east-west communters) and connect with the Canada line somewhere.

I agree that it will be expensive, but nobody promised us a rose garden. We'll have to lobby the feds really hard or something, but there is no other way than extending the M-Line West, with a junction on the C-Line. To do otherwise would be a fatal "white elephant" blunder.

This is only my opinion, of course. Others may or may not agree, I don't know.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

100's of millions?

It will be in he 9-figures. Consider it's underground, there are nearby businesses and homes to consider, it's a stacked tunnel....the Canada Line isn't designed for this, they would have to find a location suitable for where the switch can be located. And after that, they would have to reduce the grade of the Canada Line track for that to happen.

It's not worth the cost at all. We can work to eliminate transfers that make sense like the Evergreen to Millennium. But this doesn't make sense one bit.

Above all, the ridership from the East is where the extension will get most of its ridership. NOT from the Canada Line, though it will no doubt add significant ridership to the Millennium but that's why (as I have previously said) that the transfer/exchange corridors at Broadway/Cambie needs to be wide enough for the projected ridership.

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Excuse me, but I think that it is essential to the system to interline it as an extension of the Lillenium Line (as Mr. X said, huge volumes of east-west communters) and connect with the Canada line somewhere.

I agree that it will be expensive, but nobody promised us a rose garden. We'll have to lobby the feds really hard or something, but there is no other way than extending the M-Line West, with a junction on the C-Line. To do otherwise would be a fatal "white elephant" blunder.

This is only my opinion, of course. Others may or may not agree, I don't know.

I would rather not see the Canada Line connect anywhere....a few decades from now it won't be able to handle any major ridership growth.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by mr.x

I would rather not see the Canada Line connect anywhere....a few decades from now it won't be able to handle any major ridership growth.

I was thinking that a connection point at, for example, City Hall station would be good for people who head south from downtown or the West End to UBC on C-Line. (or who head North on it, and want to go to UBC)

Not to have a connection strikes me as rather strange, like leaving a vital element out of the system, although I agree that the Canada Line has been a bigger success than anyone imagined.

Maybe we'll have to bite the bullet, and put in more cars with 1.5 minute headways at rush hour on the C-Line. They do that in some European cities.
I think that having the whole system as intgrated - and extensive - as possible - is vital, but I DO see your point.

That - or knock out the platform walls for three-car trains; (more $$$$$$$ yes, I know !!)

Put it ths way .......... if we don't connect C-Line and M-Line, we'll regret it sorely later on, in my opinion.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I was thinking that a connection point at, for example, City Hall station would be good for people who head south from downtown or the West End to UBC on C-Line. (or who head North on it, and want to go to UBC)

Not to have a connection strikes me as rather strange, like leaving a vital element out of the system, although I agree that the Canada Line has been a bigger success than anyone imagined.

Maybe we'll have to bite the bullet, and put in more cars with 1.5 minute headways at rush hour on the C-Line. They do that in some European cities.
I think that having the whole system as intgrated - and extensive - as possible - is vital, but I DO see your point.

That - or knock out the platform walls for three-car trains; (more $$$$$$$ yes, I know !!)

Put it ths way .......... if we don't connect C-Line and M-Line, we'll regret it sorely later on, in my opinion.

Actually, the Canada Line's City Hall Station was built in mind for a transfer passage to Millennium Line West. There's a knockout wall panel in the mezzaine. The problem, imo, is that it's a bit narrow. Maybe 10-12 feet in width?

In addition, the Crossroads development at the northwest corner of Cambie/Broadway has built in space for a future underground entrance for both the Canada Line and the Millennium Line.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by mr.x

I disagree very much to this post.

It is extremely unlikely. You would be adding hundreds and hundreds of millions in cost to make this happen. Do remember that the Canada Line south of Broadway is a shallow stacked tunnel, it would be extremely expensive to connect it with the Canada Line.

And if you interline it with the Canada Line, that means you can't interline it with SkyTrain Millennium. The Millennium Line ridership from the east will be much, much greater than interlined ridership from the Canada Line.


The Canada Line OMC at Bridgeport will have barely enough space (or even expansion space) in the future to accommodate the cars needed for the Canada Line's future demands nevermind the need to be the storage yard for an extension that would see 150,000 plus daily passengers.


The Millennium Line is the most logical and only extension option.

I wasn't advocating this as the preferred option I was simply referring to the previous post that suggested this could be one of many options financiers might propose.

I'm not sure why you lashed out quite so harshly, this forum is a discussion of transportation issues. My post was not critical, nor did I attack any view points.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by mr.x

Actually, the Canada Line's City Hall Station was built in mind for a transfer passage to Millennium Line West. There's a knockout wall panel in the mezzaine. The problem, imo, is that it's a bit narrow. Maybe 10-12 feet in width?

In addition, the Crossroads development at the northwest corner of Cambie/Broadway has built in space for a future underground entrance for both the Canada Line and the Millennium Line.

Are you saying, therefore, that you agree that this link-up (in whatever configuration it takes) is possible and desirable, or are you still against any connection to Canada Line from Millenium Line? What is your stance on this, please?

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by TransitJack

I wasn't advocating this as the preferred option I was simply referring to the previous post that suggested this could be one of many options financiers might propose.

I'm not sure why you lashed out quite so harshly, this forum is a discussion of transportation issues. My post was not critical, nor did I attack any view points.

Sleepless nights and a bit of caffeine can do that.

[mr.x]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Are you saying, therefore, that you agree that this link-up (in whatever configuration it takes) is possible and desirable, or are you still against any connection to Canada Line from Millenium Line? What is your stance on this, please?

I'm for a walking connection between the Canada and Millennium Lines just like Broadway and Commercial Stations down the road.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by mr.x

I'm for a walking connection between the Canada and Millennium Lines just like Broadway and Commercial Stations down the road.

A walking connection: where people leave one train, go down a corridor (or whatever) to the other line? That sounds all fine and good to me. I though you meant no access AT ALL, and I could not understand why. Now I understand, I think.

[punface]

Originally Posted by huenthar

Brand new argument against BARSTA:
I hope BARSTA members west of MacDonald enjoying today's Greek Festival (and all the extra business and, more importantly, exposure) realize they will never get to have a street festival on Broadway ever again with a surface rail line...

Very good point. I think some BARSTA members sponsored Greek Day as well (not 100% sure of this.)