[St. John's] The Official Project Thread

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by nl_eng

Foolishness ... in terms of provincial land near the populated areas of the East End, the Snows Lane location is probably the only available and suitable lot near densely populated residential zones. I don't think any of the Pleasantville lots that the province would own (where the old American buildings are currently or were recently located) are large enough, and the Virginia Park Elementary current site may be too difficult to keep operational with new construction going on next door if the School Board is looking for a large floor plan for the new building.

Playing the "rich vs. poor" card, instead of having a sensible rationale, just makes Mr. Whittle look like a complete idiot.

I agree. I would say there are more younger families and more children in the Stavanger Drive area than in Virginia Park and the area is still being developed. The lot where VP elementary is located is not really that large and Snow's Lane is much more suitable, the road just needs to be widened.

[Architype]

"a new school to replace aging Virginia Park Elementary "

The school must have been built not earlier than the seventies, so it's maybe only thirty to forty years old?

I guess they didn't build it with a future in mind. It's not uncommon in Canada for schools to last over a hundred years if they are built well, maintained properly, and retrofitted, however this one has the look of a temporary structure.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by Architype

"a new school to replace aging Virginia Park Elementary "

The school must have been built not earlier than the seventies, so it's maybe only thirty to forty years old?

I guess they didn't build it with a future in mind. It's not uncommon in Canada for schools to last over a hundred years if they are built well, maintained properly, and retrofitted, however this one has the look of a temporary structure.

No schools are ever that old really. Parts of Torbay's school that will soon be torn down are only 30 years old, when you think of Holy Heart being slated to close and the Basilica is still standing. I read something a while ago about how in Canada in general buildings never get that old before they are torn down, it mentioned how in Europe they have buildings that are hundreds of years old and here they are torn down after 50 years.

[Architype]

^ A lot of Vancouver's schools are a hundred years old; they are gradually retrofitting them for eathquakes. They were built quite elegantly and substantially, similar in some ways to the old one on Bond St.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by Architype

^ A lot of Vancouver's schools are a hundred years old; they are gradually retrofitting them for eathquakes. They were built quite elegantly and substantially, similar in some ways to the old one on Bond St.

Now that Newfoundland and Labrador has money we may see provincial buildings like schools last longer. When you look at St. Bons it's a very old school that is still standing because they have private money to keep it up.

[PoscStudent]

The Eastern School Board has announced that they will build the new west end high school by the school for the deaf on Topsail Road.

This is interesting because there's a podcast on CBC about how the school for the deaf might be closed down soon.

That was on CBC Late Night, nothing on the 351 Water Street development meeting though.

[Architype]

^I know a west end high school is needed.

The school I meant as a good example of an older school is Bishop Field on Bond St; it was built in 1928:

http://bishopfeild.6amsoftware.com/about.php

This may be St.Johns' best non-catholic school architecturally, I hope they conserve this building. I think in many cases governments opt to replace older buildings like schools and hospitals because it is less complicated and gets them more votes.

[Architype]

SSP has now incorporated Google Maps into the building data (for some); as an example, here's the one for the Confederation Building:

http://skyscraperpage.com/cities/?buildingID=24411

[nl_eng]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

The Eastern School Board has announced that they will build the new west end high school by the school for the deaf on Topsail Road.

That's a good idea ... ever since they tore down the old College of the North Atlantic on Topsail Road, that lot of land has needed a new purpose.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by Architype

^I know a west end high school is needed.

The school I meant as a good example of an older school is Bishop Field on Bond St; it was built in 1928:

http://bishopfeild.6amsoftware.com/about.php

This may be St.Johns' best non-catholic school architecturally, I hope they conserve this building. I think in many cases governments opt to replace older buildings like schools and hospitals because it is less complicated and gets them more votes.

Yeah I've always liked that school.

[jeddy1989]

^ that elementry school looks a little different then VP elementry hey? LOL

[ConundrumNL]

Reading in the paper this morning that last night's meeting about the Woolworth's development went well. Apparently the Developers and area residents have met halfway on the issues.

I'd post the actual article, but I can't seem to find it on the Telegram's website.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by jeddy1989

^ that elementry school looks a little different then VP elementry hey? LOL

Just a tad.

Residents, developer not at odds over downtown project

The lack of confrontation and concerns raised at a public meeting about a proposed downtown development suggests the builder and residents have met halfway on Water Street west.

John Lindsay, president of Eastport Properties, the developer of the former Woolworth’s site on Water Street, said he thought the meeting went well. He agreed with the meeting’s chairwoman, Deputy Mayor Shannie Duff, that part of the reason it went so well was preparation. There was a lot of consultation with the city regarding the needs of the area and the use of the building, Lindsay said after the hour and half long meeting. The majority of the 30 or so people in attendance had little or nothing to say or ask after presentations were given by the company, traffic engineers and city.

Presentations outlined there would be little to no change to traffic in the area and the schematics of the 39-metre tall building, including the six storeys of parking on Harbour Drive, six storeys of office space and Water Street retail opportunities. The city would partner with the developer on building more than half the parking spaces, bringing the total number of parking stalls to more than 460.

Some questions related to the logistics of the area or how the information — like that in the traffic study and view plane analysis — were determined. Heather Reeves, a downtown resident, raised the issues of traffic, and in particular, why parking was such a priority. She said she’d rather see the city drive traffic away from the downtown and enhance other modes of transportation. “I worry about a building being higher than it should be, especially when it’s for something we don’t have worked out well in the city,” she said, referring to the parking issue. “I did want to say there are a lot of positive things about this proposal.”

Generally, the atmosphere at the meeting was positive. Shane O’Dea, an English professor who has worked with many heritage groups in the city, gave the development a thumbs up near the end of the meeting. He asked how long the current building had been vacant, and described it as a “ blight and an eyesore”, before adding that he thought the proposal from Eastport was appropriate and would be a good addition to the area. O’Dea did criticize the city for waiting to do its municipal plan until after the province’s regional plan is complete until at least 2011, a vote that divided council earlier this year. He suggested that without a plan for the downtown, all development in the highly sensitive area would be done piecemeal.

Dave Lane, one of the founders of happycity.ca, a website devoted to the future and planning of St. John’s, asked many of the questions at the meeting, including what will be the economic benefits of having such a building. Many of his questions will be answered later in the planning stages, but overall Lane said the presentation was detailed and gave him a better idea of what will be happening at the site. He said he’d expected and hoped for a bigger turnout.

“The general impression I get about this development is that it’s well received. It’s in a compromise area. If you look at a more recent proposal, which was the Fortis one that was a very contentious issue because of the location and what it means,” Lane said of the controversial development that was pulled by Fortis after a massive public outcry against the 15-storey office tower.

“(Eastport Properties) seemed to be more connected with the public view of what it means to be downtown. It’s not in the heritage area so to speak,” Lane said, refusing to give his opinion on the development. “People want to see economic development downtown, people want to see growth downtown. They want to see activity, and this is close enough to home.”

[ConundrumNL]

From Today's Telegram:

Court Conundrum: http://www.thetelegram.com/index.cfm?sid=343998&sc=79

Master plan for possible locations for a new Court House in St. John's

[PoscStudent]

^ Thanks

Court conundrum
Master plan identifies eight options for St. John's courts

A master plan prepared for the provincial government lists eight potential options for the future of the St. John's courts, The Telegram has learned.

Proposed properties include the former Grace Hospital site on LeMarchant Road, the former Holloway School site between Long's Hill and Harvey Road, the former Horwood Lumber site on lower Springdale Street, a property on Bell Street almost across from Supreme Court on Duckworth Street and the block known as the Baird property across from Supreme Court on Water Street.

The master plan was prepared by the BAE-Newplan Group Ltd. and obtained by The Telegram through access to information.

A breakdown of the cost of the various options was blacked out in the documents obtained by The Telegram.

The courts are currently spread out over a number of locations, including Supreme Court on Duckworth and Water streets. The Sheriff's Office and the Court of Appeal are also on Duckworth. Provincial court rents space in Atlantic Place on Water Street and Unified Family Court is on King's Bridge Road.

Rent for Atlantic Place - which includes space for victim services, provincial court, fines, probation, special prosecutions and Crown attorneys - is $1.4 million for the fiscal year ending March 2011. Logistical problems with installing security and technology and a lack of space have plagued the system for years.

Supreme Court opened in 1904. There's little meeting space for lawyers and clients and the courtrooms have awful acoustics.

The crammed Court of Appeal has no public washroom.

Among future priorities is the preservation of the historic image of Supreme Court as part of an active court system - most likely as the new home of the Court of Appeal and a possible federal court/tribunal hearing suite.

A downtown site is also considered a major objective, and parking is cited as a stumbling block at nearly all sites but LeMarchant Road.

No site was singled out.

Option 1

The Bell Street property, once considered for a hotel, includes the former Heritage Cafe Building. It borders on Church Hill and backs onto Henry Street. Both 344 Duckworth and 3-9 Church Hill are potential acquisitions.

Pros: It's close to Supreme Court and could be linked to it via a skywalk to the Sheriff's Office; upper floors offer stunning views; and it is in a reduced parking requirement zone.

Cons: Further expansion is uncertain; staff and visitor parking is a serious problem.

Option 2

The Baird property consists of the full block along Cliff's Cove-Baird's Cove between Water Street and Harbour Drive. This option would include acquiring Nos. 173, 171 and 169 Water Street and removing those structures.

Pros: Great views and downtown location; potential for "dramatic new courthouse construction" defining a "high-profile court precinct."

Cons: Height restriction would require the acquisition of considerable adjoining property; busy traffic area; parking and flooding issues.

Option 3

Another option uses both the Bell Street and Baird properties.

Provincial court would move to the Baird site and Supreme to Bell Street, which would be linked by skywalk to the current Supreme Court.

Pros: Downtown location, close to Supreme Court; some underground parking possible; potential to expand if adjoining properties are available; views of Narrows and Signal Hill.

Cons: Courts would not be consolidated; separate parking facility needed for staff and visitors.

Option 4

The Holloway Street site, once considered a site for condos in the oil bust of the 1980s, is being used as a parking lot.

Pros: commanding views; major consolidation of courts for the downtown; could accommodate all court support functions; landscaping might tie in with The Rooms.

Cons: Significantly removed from Supreme Court; would require large-scale parking facility due to city bylaws, which is not possible without acquiring more property.

Option 5

The former Horwood Lumber site is on lower Springdale Street bordering on New Gower.

Pros: downtown location; closeness of legal community; good views; potential to acquire other property.

Cons: no pedestrian link to Supreme Court possible; unable to consolidate all courts; extra facility required for parking; traffic issues on Water Street would be compounded.

Option 6

The old hospital on the Grace site was levelled and cleaned up. The former nurses' residence remains but would be torn down for parking, should that site be chosen for a new courthouse.

Pros: no restrictions on consolidation of courts.

Cons: It's not downtown; views are less desirable.

Option 7

Another option preserves only the facades of the old Newfoundland Museum and Court of Appeal buildings to front a new structure, which will include Unified Family Court - trial courts.

It would see properties alongside Supreme Court, including the High Sheriff's Office, demolished.

Pros: Brings Unified Family Court downtown.

Cons: Parking shortage; less opportunity for future expansion.

Option 8

The second option along the same vein would have the old Newfoundland Museum building remain intact, but only the facade of the Court of Appeal would remain, allowing small claims and traffic courts to move there.

Pros: elimination of poorly constructed buildings alongside Supreme would allow for landscaping and public space; the museum building would house Family Justice Services and possibly other offices such as the High Sheriff's Office.

Con: Lack of parking.

The master plan considers court requirements up to 2031.

Justice Minister Felix Collins was not available for comment Thursday, but via e-mail he said Justice is reviewing the master plan.

"We are committed as a government to providing the most effective and efficient court system possible," he said.

Article

I was thinking recently though how it would be great if the province were to build on the west end of Water Street, I think if one building was built down there more developers would be interested in developing the area. If they were to build on on the Horwood Lumber site they could build a much larger office and locate more provincial offices there. They seem to have started spreading out departments in a lot of the vacant buildings they owned around the city and it seems like it would be cheaper to sell of them off and have one larger building to maintain.

I like the Holloway School site between Long's Hill and Harvey Road but there will be height restrictions and I think it will be tougher for traffic. I don't like the idea of the Grace Hospetial site for offices, there was talk recently of a major mixed use development on Bell Street, actually on it as in getting rid of it, and I like that better. All other sites are okay, I don't no how city guidelines work for the province. I like that they're going to build downtown.

[ConundrumNL]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

^ Thanks


Article

I was thinking recently though how it would be great if the province were to build on the west end of Water Street, I think if one building was built down there more developers would be interested in developing the area. If they were to build on on the Horwood Lumber site they could build a much larger office and locate more provincial offices there. They seem to have started spreading out departments in a lot of the vacant buildings they owned around the city and it seems like it would be cheaper to sell of them off and have one larger building to maintain.

I like the Holloway School site between Long's Hill and Harvey Road but there will be height restrictions and I think it will be tougher for traffic. I don't like the idea of the Grace Hospetial site for offices, there was talk recently of a major mixed use development on Bell Street, actually on it as in getting rid of it, and I like that better. All other sites are okay, I don't no how city guidelines work for the province. I like that they're going to build downtown.

I always thought the province was exempt from the City By-Laws. Although Height Restrictions and Parking are Hot Button issues right now, so maybe they'll follow the City's rules to avoid backlash from the public.

[PoscStudent]

^ I'd say they will consider the restrictions to an extent

After looking at them more here is what I think of the options:

Option 1

The Bell Street property, once considered for a hotel, includes the former Heritage Cafe Building. It borders on Church Hill and backs onto Henry Street. Both 344 Duckworth and 3-9 Church Hill are potential acquisitions.

I think this area could be a good place, I don't no if what they mentioned is exactly set in stone or not. I think they could use all the buildings, and demolish some, from the old Aliant building to Church Hill as well the old telephone building could also be worked in. My idea is probably to big for what they are thinking though

Option 2

The Baird property consists of the full block along Cliff's Cove-Baird's Cove between Water Street and Harbour Drive. This option would include acquiring Nos. 173, 171 and 169 Water Street and removing those structures.

I like that they say "dramatic new courthouse construction" and "high-profile court precinct." but I think it's a way to messy plan. They'd have to remove buildings right in the downtown core, there are serious height restrictions I just think overall it will be a tough place to build.

Option 3

Another option uses both the Bell Street and Baird properties.

Provincial court would move to the Baird site and Supreme to Bell Street, which would be linked by skywalk to the current Supreme Court.

I don't if it would still mean getting rid of all the buildings on the baird site or not but I think they have enough room on water street for all of this and that they don't need both sites

Option 4

The Holloway Street site, once considered a site for condos in the oil bust of the 1980s, is being used as a parking lot.

Something needs to go there but I don't no if this is it. I think it's a good place for condos and parking. What I think could happen there is a condo development which would look like row houses from Harvey Rd. and there could be condo and public parking located on Long's Hill.

Option 5

The former Horwood Lumber site is on lower Springdale Street bordering on New Gower.

It's far away which is a problem but I think it could help development in that area. A ped-way connecting the building with the Delta would mean that you could go from that site right up to 351 Water Street. I didn't think there was any restrictions in that area but it sounds like from this that there is

Option 6

The old hospital on the Grace site was levelled and cleaned up. The former nurses' residence remains but would be torn down for parking, should that site be chosen for a new courthouse.

I won't be surprised to see it built here but I hope not. I don't think the site is great for offices and it's far away, it's a better residential though that won't happen unless the province sells it I guess. Danny Williams has said he thought this was the best site for The Rooms.

Option 7

Another option preserves only the facades of the old Newfoundland Museum and Court of Appeal buildings to front a new structure, which will include Unified Family Court - trial courts.

It would see properties alongside Supreme Court, including the High Sheriff's Office, demolished.

I don't understand this option as much and I still think if they want to use this area use the Bell Street site

Option 8

The second option along the same vein would have the old Newfoundland Museum building remain intact, but only the facade of the Court of Appeal would remain, allowing small claims and traffic courts to move there.

Again Bell Street seems, use Bell Street now and if an expansion is needed in 30 years consider using this site then

[ConundrumNL]

Originally Posted by PoscStudent

Option 5

The former Horwood Lumber site is on lower Springdale Street bordering on New Gower.

It's far away which is a problem but I think it could help development in that area. A ped-way connecting the building with the Delta would mean that you could go from that site right up to 351 Water Street. I didn't think there was any restrictions in that area but it sounds like from this that there is

Option 6

The old hospital on the Grace site was levelled and cleaned up. The former nurses' residence remains but would be torn down for parking, should that site be chosen for a new courthouse.

I won't be surprised to see it built here but I hope not. I don't think the site is great for offices and it's far away, it's a better residential though that won't happen unless the province sells it I guess. Danny Williams has said he thought this was the best site for The Rooms.

I like the Horwood site. That area really needs a major development, and I think this could spur other work in the area.

I always pictured the Grace site being converted into a type of town centre retail area where local businesses could set-up shop. I'm from that part of town, and the area could really use it. I hope they don't use it for office space.

[PoscStudent]

Originally Posted by ConundrumNL

I like the Horwood site. That area really needs a major development, and I think this could spur other work in the area.

I always pictured the Grace site being converted into a type of town centre retail area where local businesses could set-up shop. I'm from that part of town, and the area could really use it. I hope they don't use it for office space.

They will probably never sell of the Grace. Wasn't the Grace also consider as a possible location for a high school to replace Holy Heart? That wouldn't be a bad thing there, though I doubt residents would really want it.

I'm thinking Bell Street is probably the best location now, my mind wasn't long changing.

[Architype]

I think the Bell Street site would be the best because of its close location to the existing courthouse and many legal offices, and because it doesn't require any significant demolition, but either the Grace or Horwood sites would probably be more practical in terms of space. There is no mention of how much space they need, so it's hard to evaluate this. I think the established downtown area is better suited to a courthouse than the Grace site, which is ideally suited to residential and commercial development, and as for Water St or the old museum site, they would (IMO) require unnecessary demolition of heritage buildings. The site near the Rooms would be difficult to design, especially being so close to the Rooms, but is a prominent location. Hopefuly the design fo any of these sites would be well thought out, and would include indoor parking.

Knowing how they choose sites in St. John's, I'm almost suprised it's not in Pippy Park.