Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[vangirl3]

I vote for a single line from VCC. Anything else just seems either shortsighted, half-assed, or a self-defeating compromise.

What is the benefit to splitting the line? If it's because the construction costs will be cheaper for the LRT at-grade portion, surely the subsequent higher operating costs, lower frequencies, lower transit times and lower ridership #'s (like another poster said -- I'll drive) would cancel that initial 'savings' out?

It seems that the only ridership benefit to the split would be picking up people that live in the City Gate area and those west of the C Line... Anyone from downtown would get to UBC via transferrring from the C Line and anyone from the East is going to transfer at Commercial. Surely the 'benefit' of that is miniscule compared to the negatives. Plus, that ROW from G Island to Broadway is so congested and choc-a-bloc with businesses and intersecting streets that it would have to crawl at a snail's pace. That's great for tourists and novelty-seekers but as a mode of genuine transit for commuters it's pretty pathetic and won't get people out of their cars.

I wonder if this 'bundling' of the streetcar line with the UBC extension is a strategy the COV is using to get that streetcar line built. I'm all for that line but I don't think it should come at the price of losing an underground skytrain line all the way to UBC.

[jlousa]

Posts moved and thread closed as we have an active one covering the same topic

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=167934

[deasine]

Originally Posted by jlousa

Posts moved and thread closed as we have an active one covering the same topic

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=167934

Thread merged. Really, this was the original thread for the Broadway corridor transit discussion and the other was for the actual group, but from now on, this is the thread for the preliminary discussion of the Broadway rapid transit project.

[deasine]

• Video Link

[CLC]

I can't believe at 1:50 it shows Paris Mobilien BRT, it is not a proper form of bus "rapid" transit (you can find youtube video of bike sharing the busway?!!), and I think 98-b had more features of BRT than Paris's.

[deasine]

I'm not so fixated on option 4B as much as everyone else here on the forum. The combination alternative can actually work quite well, but it really depends on how it is constructed. Afterall, drawing a bunch of coloured lines on a map doesn't tell you the full story. There are a few issues we need to have answered before we can draw any conclusions.

1. LRT Tracks between UBC and Arbutus:
   How are the tracks being treated? Will they have full ROW? Where are the stops? How wide is Broadway? Is it wide enough? How will Broadway and 10th accommodate the LRT? How is the intersection at 10th/Broadway/Alma being treated? How close are the stops?
2. Bikes on Broadway:
   With the all SkyTrain option, the existing HOV lane can be configured for a full separated bike lane, possibly having a bike lane in each direction along with space for parking one side. With the combination option, the same bike lane can still occur on Central Broadway, but what about West of Arbutus? It's certain that there will be no space left for even an ordinary 1.5 metre bike lane. I know 10th is always there, but it's known that having bike routes on the actual corridors present many benefits.
3. Future Growth:
   How will the design be able to accommodate more trains? How will it be able to accommodate longer trains?
4. Cost:
   What is the cost of both options? How can either design be implemented in cheaper ways? Is it possible to have a P3 operator be involved in the LRT option?
5. Ridership:
   What is the potential ridership for both options?
6. OMC
   Where is the OMC for the combination alternative? How can the OMC accommodate more trains?

I know some of these questions can be answered through the 1999 technical study, but I believe that there needs to be up-to-date technical detailed drawings in order to have a better sense of what LRT will look like on the corridor, and how will it impact businesses, pedestrians, cyclists, and drivers.

If the combination alternative can be constructed so that there can be longer trains, beyond the realistic maximum of 3-cars, be able to accommodate more trains in the future, wide enough to handle existing traffic levels, etc., I think it can work and can stimulate/encourage more LRT on Arbutus and up to downtown. The combination alternative also opens the doors to extend the LRT from Granville up to downtown, giving a rapid transit replacement for the 44. Not only this, but it will be a great benefit for the Olympic Village, great for the False Creek flats, and could stimulate more growth in Kitsilano.

Personally, I can see the combination alternative work if it is constructed properly. But I haven't studied Broadway well enough to know the limitations of the corridor. Like many of you here, I think I would like to know more information before deciding what I want. It's going to have to involve SkyTrain, in one form of another. Either way, I think it's important that everyone participate in TransLink's forum in order to properly give them input.

[WarrenC12]

The combination plan is a cool one, although I think it would be expensive too.

Funny to see some of the opposition here. Be careful, you start to sound like zwei when you immediately dismiss reasonable options as stupid.

[The_Henry_Man]

It'll be cool if one of us can do another poll on this thread, on the updated mode choices for the UBC Rapid Transit Line, and especially compare the support for the pure M-Line extension and the hybrid streetcar/M-Line.

[CLC]

^ Potentially all of the options (except "Best bus") can be very expensive, since the current phase doesn't rule out elevated or tunnel alignment for LRT or BRT.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

It'll be cool if one of us can do another poll on this thread, on the updated mode choices for the UBC Rapid Transit Line, and especially compare the support for the pure M-Line extension and the hybrid streetcar/M-Line.

Not sure if it will work... but let's try to see if you guys can still vote.

Last Poll:
SkyTrain to Cambie, then rapid bus to UBC 0 0% SkyTrain to Granville, then rapid bus to UBC 2 1.34% SkyTrain to Arbutus, then rapid bus to UBC 3 2.01% SkyTrain to Alma, then rapid bus to UBC 6 4.03% SkyTrain all the way to UBC 128 85.91% LRT to UBC via Broadway 8 5.37% Rapid bus to UBC 1 0.67% Nothing should be built; Prius cars for everyone! 0 0% undecided 1 0.67%

Nope it doesn't work. Poll closed.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by CLC

^ Potentially all of the options can be very expensive, since the current phase doesn't rule out elevated or tunnel alignment for LRT or BRT.

Then I can't really see why the combo option is any better or a compromise between the pure Skytrain or pure streetcar options. Broadway west of Arbutus is still relative narrow with too many intersections and side streets, destroying service reliability, especially between Blenheim and MacDonald. With the M-Line terminus now at Arbutus, it'll just create another commuter bottleneck for commuter transfers just because of changing transit modes. How will you manage turns from W.Broadway, to Alma, and then to W.10th Ave, without disrupting reliability, service and speed? Also, how will you manage the steep grades just west of Alma on W.10th? As I said before, no one wants to transfer twice to UBC, especially the ones coming in from the E-Line at Commercial-Broadway. Streetcars must not be any part of the UBC rapid transit line, period.

Remember, UBC, along with Broadway Precinct, is the second-busiest/most popular work destinations in the entire Metro Vancouver region. To force transfers from Skytrain to another system anywhere on the Broadway Corridor with lesser capacity, speed and reliability will merely result in diminishing returns and will not solve today's current transit woes on the Broadway Corridor. Besides, like vangirl3 has said, I feel that the combo version is more of a political decision by Mayor Greg Robertson to force streetcars to be implemented on the Olympic Line.

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by deasine

Not sure if it will work... but let's try to see if you guys can still vote.

Last Poll:
SkyTrain to Cambie, then rapid bus to UBC 0 0% SkyTrain to Granville, then rapid bus to UBC 2 1.34% SkyTrain to Arbutus, then rapid bus to UBC 3 2.01% SkyTrain to Alma, then rapid bus to UBC 6 4.03% SkyTrain all the way to UBC 128 85.91% LRT to UBC via Broadway 8 5.37% Rapid bus to UBC 1 0.67% Nothing should be built; Prius cars for everyone! 0 0% undecided 1 0.67%

Nope it doesn't work. Poll closed.

I guess we'll just have to create a new thread on it.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

Then I can't really see why the combo option is any better or a compromise between the pure Skytrain or pure streetcar options. Broadway west of Arbutus is still relative narrow with too many intersections and side streets, destroying service reliability, especially between Blenheim and MacDonald. With the M-Line terminus now at Arbutus, it'll just create another commuter bottleneck for commuter transfers just because of changing transit modes. How will you manage turns from W.Broadway, to Alma, and then to W.10th Ave, without disrupting reliability, service and speed? Also, how will you manage the steep grades just west of Alma on W.10th? As I said before, no one wants to transfer twice to UBC, especially the ones coming in from the E-Line at Commercial-Broadway. Streetcars must not be any part of the UBC rapid transit line, period.

I know that there are a lot of students and staff taking the B-Line to work at UBC, but one has to realize that the main ridership occurs within the Broadway Business District and the alternative option does serve this pretty well. Few people from the E-Line will transfer at Commercial to get onto the UBC LRT, most should take it from Main Street, and I don't think time savings would be too significant whatever method you choose because the UBC LRT has its own separated ROW from Arubtus onwards.

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

I guess we'll just have to create a new thread on it.

Let me try a few different methods first.

[deasine]

There we go, new poll.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by The_Henry_Man

Then I can't really see why the combo option is any better or a compromise between the pure Skytrain or pure streetcar options. Broadway west of Arbutus is still relative narrow with too many intersections and side streets, destroying service reliability, especially between Blenheim and MacDonald. With the M-Line terminus now at Arbutus, it'll just create another commuter bottleneck for commuter transfers just because of changing transit modes. How will you manage turns from W.Broadway, to Alma, and then to W.10th Ave, without disrupting reliability, service and speed? Also, how will you manage the steep grades just west of Alma on W.10th? As I said before, no one wants to transfer twice to UBC, especially the ones coming in from the E-Line at Commercial-Broadway. Streetcars must not be any part of the UBC rapid transit line, period.

Remember, UBC, along with Broadway Precinct, is the second-busiest/most popular work destinations in the entire Metro Vancouver region. To force transfers from Skytrain to another system anywhere on the Broadway Corridor with lesser capacity, speed and reliability will merely result in diminishing returns and will not solve today's current transit woes on the Broadway Corridor. Besides, like vangirl3 has said, I feel that the combo version is more of a political decision by Mayor Greg Robertson to force streetcars to be implemented on the Olympic Line.

From a transit-option point of view, the combo would likely have more potential riders, and also makes the transit network up to Central Broadway distinct more robust.
I agree exactly with you that UBC-bound customers are obviously loser to big extent, settle for the slowness, unreliable tram service, and all kinds of inconvenience. At-street LRT from arbutus also likely means that those taking #41, #49 would not make a shift as there is no commute time improvement. It certainly will not fit the bill as "UBC Line rapid transit". Translink or Province may better rename the study to dis-emphasize the UBC part.

[nname]

Originally Posted by deasine

I don't think time savings would be too significant whatever method you choose because the UBC LRT has its own separated ROW from Arubtus onwards.

So the cost saving for having a LRT wouldn't be too significant too. I'd say the segment between Arbutus and Blanca is about the same length as Main to Arbutus, so would LRT (include rolling stock, OMC, and associated road works) cost less than half of SkyTrain? And even if it is in fact cheaper, would the higher operating cost for running two lines worth it? I don't think we're at a point where we need 3 almost-parallel lines to serve such a small area. I'm fine with street car as it is acted as a feeder route, but a full rapid transit system? Probably a bit too much.

[nname]

Originally Posted by deasine

There we go, new poll.

RRT should be VCC to UBC, right? Unless you mean option 4A...

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by CLC

From a transit-option point of view, the combo would likely have more potential riders, and also makes the transit network up to Central Broadway distinct more robust.
I agree exactly with you that UBC-bound customers are obviously loser to big extent, settle for the slowness, unreliable tram service, and all kinds of inconvenience. At-street LRT from arbutus also likely means that those taking #41, #49 would not make a shift as there is no commute time improvement. It certainly will not fit the bill as "UBC Line rapid transit". Translink or Province may better rename the study to dis-emphasize the UBC part.

Exactly. That's why the combo option doesn't really makes sense to me at all. I took 99B (on Jan 5th) when I was back in Van during winter break to attend my ex-gf's first class (PSYC 305) as well as visiting her prof, whom I know very well, and it was jam packed all the way to UBC, and this was during 1030h, not during the rush hour. Even for the last 2 years, lineups for the 99B at UBC was extremely long. So I think ridership to/from UBC on the Broadway, as stated on this thread, is pretty underestimated. Besides the students/faculty/staff, don't forget the residents themselves living at UBC. Since UBC students are paying the mandatory $26.00/mo for the U-Pass, they deserve to get a much improved rapid transit link to UBC. UBC serves the entire region, and transit link to the UEL needs to be fast and efficient in order to increase transit share.

Also, think about it. The M-Line extension all the way to UBC will indeed give UBC students from Richmond another good alternative to campus instead of the 480. In fact, taking the C-Line/M-Line route to UBC from Richmond-Brighouse might actually even be faster than the 480 (17-18min to Broadway-City Hall, then perhaps 10-15min to UBC from there).

The UBC Line project page on the Traslink website mentioned that there are over 100,000 bus trips on the Broadway Corridor. I suppose when the rapid transit link to UBC is built, it's very likely it'll serve around 170,000 passengers pphpd on its opening day (?).

[The_Henry_Man]

Originally Posted by deasine

There we go, new poll.

Excellent, thanks.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by SpikePhanta

Well can't they maybe connect Metrotown's underground parkade to a future Save-on underground lot?

Also possibly when redeveloping StationSquare to connect it to metrotown they can use the old TGIF area?

Like somehow that will be the connector.

Right now Metropolis at Metrotown and Station Square have different owners, so I can't see them co-operating very much in having one mall directly attached to the other. The closest I can see them doing is have a pedestrian walkway to connect the two - but better than than the open-air version that runs from the Station Square Theatres over the Bus Loop and into the Metrotown mall doors and tower lobbies.

Just like when Metropolis at Metrotown was originally Metrotown Centre and Eaton Centre who were competing malls with separate owners, there was just a simple pedestrian walkway between the two malls. Now that these are owned by the came company, it was easy to build a connector building that has a wider mall and actual stores like "Armani Exchange" and "Mexx" so they don't feel like separate malls.

If the owners of either mall get into financial difficulties and have to sell some assets, then all these metrotown malls could find themselves under one owner, making it easier to have everything joined together as 'Mega-Metrotown'