Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by flight_from_kamakura

on the bright side, we could even imagine a hub of sorts developing as lrt to ubc and along the arbutus corridor are built out.

Wouldn't this just move the nightmare that is currently at Broadway-Commercial west by several kilometers? Shouldn't we be trying to actually solve that situation instead? You'd be funnelling 100,000 people/day into an Arbutus transfer station, instead of disembarking them directly at their destination.

[Canadian Mind]

Yea, sounds more like a future "choke point" than a future hub.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Wouldn't this just move the nightmare that is currently at Broadway-Commercial west by several kilometers? Shouldn't we be trying to actually solve that situation instead? You'd be funnelling 100,000 people/day into an Arbutus transfer station, instead of disembarking them directly at their destination.

Depends how many people currently transferring at Broadway / Commercial are destined for the Broadway / hospitals corridor east of Arbutus.
If you take those people out of the mix, it may not be so much a nightmare (at least in the intermediate term).

I could eventually see an Arbutus line to/from downtown whether streetcar or LRT with the Arbutus to UBC line being a branch of it.

At least phasing to Arbutus is lower cost and preserves options for the future (as opposed to LRT from Broadway / Commercial.

[punface]

Originally Posted by flight_from_kamakura

just a reminder:

City of Vancouver's Draft Rapid Transit Principles for the Broadway Corridor. If you are interested in hearing what other people have said or would like to review and discuss the Draft Principles with City staff, please join us at an open house on Thursday, March 25 from 6 - 9 pm at Mount Pleasant Community Centre, 1 Kingsway (at Main Street). The open house has been structured so you can drop in at any time to view informational material, speak with City staff, and provide any additional comments.

Thanks for posting this, I'm going to go check out the Broadway corridor open house right now. (And I'm quoting you in case it reminds anyone else to go as well.)

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by punface

Thanks for posting this, I'm going to go check out the Broadway corridor open house right now. (And I'm quoting you in case it reminds anyone else to go as well.)

Could you take notes, pictures, and maybe even video for the rest of us please?

[Metro-One]

Please represent us well! Do not be shy!!!!! But be polite, hehe.

[Vonny]

Originally Posted by punface

Thanks for posting this, I'm going to go check out the Broadway corridor open house right now. (And I'm quoting you in case it reminds anyone else to go as well.)

It was a guy showing maps with streetcars everywhere. Was it you?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Wouldn't this just move the nightmare that is currently at Broadway-Commercial west by several kilometers? Shouldn't we be trying to actually solve that situation instead? You'd be funnelling 100,000 people/day into an Arbutus transfer station, instead of disembarking them directly at their destination.

100,000 people per day go to UBC now?

1. M-Line to Cambie is so vital it should already be done.
2. To Arbutus should be a no-brainer by 2020.
3. To UBC, I'm not so sure. Maybe in the future, or maybe the money is better spent elsewhere in the region first.


What if you could build LRT from Arbutus to UBC and 20-30 more kms of LRT in Surrey for the same price as Skytrain to UBC?

You also might appease the NIMBYs, which is simply a reality of life in Vancouver, as silly as it may be.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

I think if you were to only have one main tunnel you would still have to dig a parallel service tunnel in case of emergency, but I'm not too sure of safety regs. I'm just a graduating engineering student, so if anyone actually know the regs it would be a nice thing find out.

Nah, but having two tunnels with fire doors between might reduce requirements for additional exit buildings. It isn't like it would make sense to do shelter in place like the Chunnel uses!

[nname]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

100,000 people per day go to UBC now?

Currently:
26,400 via Broadway
10,330 via 4th
6,460 via 16th
15,270 via Marine

Total: 58,460

Current AM peak demand: 3500pphpd (or 4200 if including 16th)

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

What if you could build LRT from Arbutus to UBC and 20-30 more kms of LRT in Surrey for the same price as Skytrain to UBC?

If it is phased, I would rather they use a rapid-bus as in-term solution, as building LRT west of Arbutus would prevent any future extension for Skytrain. And for a cost of building and operating LRT in that section, it isn't much of an improvement over the current B-Line actually.

[flight_from_kamakura]

acceding to the wished of the nimbys is not that silly, considering that the city isn't really about to densify along that corridor in any meaningful way (i.e. not part of the broadway plan).

that said, another thought: it'll likely be the feds and their funding determination schemes (which at the moment seem to be completely ad hoc) and commitment that decide which way this goes. fully bored, by the time this one comes up, it's looking like it'll be in the $1.5-2 billion range (5.5km from glen/clark to arbutus, 6.5km from arbutus to ubc = 12km) and even more if it's p3 (which seems inevitable, even if carole is elected in 2013). even if we finally get the lechers out of there, federal funding will likely be contingent on mega-project status, and street cars won't likely do it for them. so yeah, the feds, it's an important consideration.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by nname

Currently:
26,400 via Broadway
10,330 via 4th
6,460 via 16th
15,270 via Marine

Total: 58,460

Current AM peak demand: 3500pphpd (or 4200 if including 16th)

And to draw a comparison, if I remember correctly, the various buses that were replaced by the Canada Line added up to 68,000 and a peak demand around 4,500 pphpd. But 6 months into operations, the non-Olympic ridership has grown steadily to 105,000 per weekday - suggesting that the convenience of ALRT has induced a ridership increase of more than 50%. Look ahead to 2020 and the line is projected to increase by another 40%.

Apply similar increases to the 58,460 on UBC buses today, and you get a ridership number in 2020 that will be far above 100,000 at the UBC terminus.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by nname

Currently:
26,400 via Broadway
10,330 via 4th
6,460 via 16th
15,270 via Marine

Total: 58,460

Current AM peak demand: 3500pphpd (or 4200 if including 16th)

I can only assume that 15,270 number for Marine. Includes all the students going to UBC on the 41,43,49 routes?

[CLC]

Originally Posted by cabotp

I can only assume that 15,270 number for Marine. Includes all the students going to UBC on the 41,43,49 routes?

what about 480?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by nname

Currently:
26,400 via Broadway
10,330 via 4th
6,460 via 16th
15,270 via Marine

Total: 58,460

Current AM peak demand: 3500pphpd (or 4200 if including 16th)



If it is phased, I would rather they use a rapid-bus as in-term solution, as building LRT west of Arbutus would prevent any future extension for Skytrain. And for a cost of building and operating LRT in that section, it isn't much of an improvement over the current B-Line actually.

Originally Posted by Zassk

And to draw a comparison, if I remember correctly, the various buses that were replaced by the Canada Line added up to 68,000 and a peak demand around 4,500 pphpd. But 6 months into operations, the non-Olympic ridership has grown steadily to 105,000 per weekday - suggesting that the convenience of ALRT has induced a ridership increase of more than 50%. Look ahead to 2020 and the line is projected to increase by another 40%.

Apply similar increases to the 58,460 on UBC buses today, and you get a ridership number in 2020 that will be far above 100,000 at the UBC terminus.

This is statistical, undeniable evidence that it HAS to be skytrain technology to UBC. I hope that these statistics were presented and/ or will be presented at the meeting to be held tonight, and /or at a pertinent time in the future. They will only lend credence to going ALRT, and discarding the notion of "other" technologies in the core transit area: (the main transit axes; the "backbone" of the system)

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Apply similar increases to the 58,460 on UBC buses today, and you get a ridership number in 2020 that will be far above 100,000 at the UBC terminus.

You can't apply a similar increase to the UBC line. You will find a nominal increase, but most of the people who would go by rail to UBC are already going with their U-Passes.

Parking is expensive on UBC land.

The increases you may find are professors and UBC land residents. It will be nothing compared to the Canada Line increases, which attracted a wide swath of people who wouldn't take a bus down that corridor.

[Zassk]

^ And yet transit still only carries less than 1/3 of traffic to UBC. There is still room for improvement. Plus we can expect year-over-year increases analagous to the Canada Line due to UBC's aggressive residential development and campus growth.

I'll say it again, it was a mistake to exclude UBC from the list of regional town centers in the LRSP. It's going to be a significant, relatively self-contained neighbourhood and employment center by 2020. It's not just an educational campus like Langara.

[CLC]

Another proof of Malcolm Johnston's brainwashing worked:
http://thebernermonologues.blogspot.com/2010/03/malcolm-johnston-of-light-rail.html

http://thebernermonologues.blogspot.com/2010/03/more-malcolm.html

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by CLC

what about 480?

Oops sorry. I was just thinking of the Vancouver routes.

[punface]

Here are my observations from the City of Vancouver's Broadway Corridor open house on Thursday night.

- The open house was held in a small room in the new Mount Pleasant community centre. There were display boards on the outer walls and a table in the middle where people could sit and fill out questionnaires (the questions were the same ones from the online survey.) When I was there it was pretty crowded (about 25 people.)

- I would describe the typical attendee while I was there as being an older boomer (55-65)

- I counted 5 City of Vancouver staff members walking around answering questions. While I was there, each was locked in conversation with the same person or group of people the whole time. I was able to eavesdrop on 4 of these conversations and all the people talking to City staff were, as best I could tell, people against extending the SkyTrain. I heard two of these groups name-drop Professor Condon and his research. One elderly lady was against P3s and also talking about how tragic it is that people have been put out of work by automated trains. Finally there was an elderly couple who seemed to be against the idea of anything city-like.

- The City of Vancouver staff were being very professional and diplomatic and trying not to show any opinion on the matter. I suspect these open houses are their least favorite part of the job, although none of them showed it.

- The display boards were highlighting that the text had changed from earlier versions. The old text was in red strikethrough and the new text was in green. One of the pro-LRT guys mentioned he was encouraged by the new wording - I'm not convinced the changes can be interpreted as pro/anti LRT/SkyTrain but hopefully the City puts them online so other people in here can interpret.

- The staff at the front door were handing out post-it notes for people to write comments on and place on the display boards (a very silly idea, IMHO.) The funniest comment was something like "I am concerned about subterranean transport being expanded in Vancouver as it could lead to psychological problems and further issues with SAD in our city.”

- I might have let the group down, as I spoke to no one. I'm not sure it would have been at all effective anyway. What I am sure would be effective is for people to fill out the online survey before March 30th (next Tuesday.) Forward the URL to interested friends and family as well!

The URL is for the survey can be found here: http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/ZHR5F3R

The URL for the City’s “draft rapid transit principles” can be found here: http://vancouver.ca/engsvcs/transport/rto/ubcline/principles.htm