Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[BCPhil]

As much as I love the streetcar and think it would be perfect for downtown or to replace certain bus routes, I think it's success actually shows how it is totally inappropriate for Broadway at this point.

It took two months of of Olympic related activity to move 500,000 people. Canada Line moved that in 2 days, the Expo Line in a single Sunday. And this is with streetcars able to leave every 5 minutes. That's just not enough capacity for what is needed. Most times I rode the streetcar it was packed, with people left standing.

Now the opposition will argue, hey, that was only to Granville island, and there wasn't a lot of demand for that destination at off peak times. I would retort: but at peak times there were multiple trains waits when trains were running every 5 minutes, that's what Broadway is like all day everyday.

Also, the corridor is so long. The streetcar is perfect for short trips of a few KM, but going all the way to Granville or UBC from Commercial wouldn't draw more people from their cars. People are looking to get to work fast, and on time, they don't need the scenic route. The study shows that 50% of travelers in the corridor are from outside CoV, that's from beyond Broadway. These aren't people looking to do window shopping or searching for a coffee, they are half asleep on their way to work.

Personally, I think there are too many people in key spots of power that know they need to have Skytrain under Broadway. It seems, after reading the above reports, that the people in City Hall (the kind that live there and don't change with each election) know what it should be too, and are setting the expectations so that only one option meets their conditions. The city planners seem to be able to tell the difference between the need for streetcar, LRT, and Skytrain; even if councilors can't.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by andcarne

Some information on how things are going from UBC's perspective can be gleaned from this report to the UBC Board of Governors at their upcoming meeting tomorrow.

Page three is particularly interesting as it suggests UBC has retained their own consultant and is fighting TransLink over their ridership numbers:



It's also nice to see them pushing the problem with pass-ups, and trying to ensure capacity for growth and 'latent demand':



They also seem to be pressuring TransLink into holding consultations sooner on campus so that students will be around and able to attend. I'm looking forward to seeing how wins some of these fights, particularly over the ridership numbers for different portions of the corridor. The previous assumption seems to have always been that ridership drops off around granville for the rest of the trip to UBC, but this seems to be showing rather the opposite.

The attached document shows pretty much what I figured. At Granville you have a good number of people boarding and unboarding. But the bus is still quite full as it leaves that stop. While some do transfer at the other stops before UBC. Most actually end up at UBC.

Basically most people who are on the 99 after it leaves Granville are headed for UBC.

[andcarne]

Originally Posted by GeeCee

Council favoring taking the streetcar to UBC rather than skytrain?

Streetcar technology could come to Broadway corridor


http://www.news1130.com/news/local/artic...chnology-could-come-to-broadway-corridor

I saw an article in the 24 Hours this morning about this. I believe it mentioned Vancouver City Council taking a vote regarding this stance tomorrow evening. Deeply concerning, and I really hope they don't decide to support streetcars down broadway. Especially without the study being completed and thus lacking all the relevant information.

I hate uninformed politicians making decisions.

[racc]

Originally Posted by andcarne

I saw an article in the 24 Hours this morning about this. I believe it mentioned Vancouver City Council taking a vote regarding this stance tomorrow evening. Deeply concerning, and I really hope they don't decide to support streetcars down broadway. Especially without the study being completed and thus lacking all the relevant information.

I hate uninformed politicians making decisions.

It is only a motion that asks streetcars to be included in the current study. All the other options would still be studied. Still, it does send the wrong message.

[twoNeurons]

Not sure if I mentioned it here... but the Streetcars were also limited to 25km/h by the railway inspector because there was one section of track that wasn't deemed "worthy" of 50 km/h speed.

In case anyone was wondering why it was travelling so slow.

[Metro-One]

I left a decent length comment. I have to stop letting myself get worked up over these misinformed individuals. If one looks back at the C-Line's history it is amazing that it was built grade separated, it seems every other force wanted it street level, but luckily the people in control actually knew something about mass transit and it was still built properly in the end.

PS - I wrote about 10 paragraphs and only 1 came up on their comments section . So only leave quick messages I guess.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Not sure if I mentioned it here... but the Streetcars were also limited to 25km/h by the railway inspector because there was one section of track that wasn't deemed "worthy" of 50 km/h speed.

In case anyone was wondering why it was travelling so slow.

I was on it yesterday, to Granville Island at 6:30pm, back at around 8pm, and the thing was just cruising. Both trains were the emptiest I've seen them (but still more than I see on the 50), and they felt like they were going near 50km/h. The trip took under 3 minutes and even beat a truck that had left near Cambie to Granville Island (for some reason the truck stuck in my head when I saw it near OV and noticed it rolling onto Granville Island).

Maybe it has something to do with the number of people on it? When I rode the streetcar in the first week in January, it went faster as well (with the trains almost empty late at night). But when they were full, and people were standing elbow to elbow they went painfully slow. Maybe a section of the track couldn't handle speed and weight.

If the trains didn't need to slow to pass, they could probably go from Moberly to GI in 2 minutes.

[officedweller]

Interesting observation - could also be a limited supply of traction power.
More power would be required for a heavier (crowded) train.
Every time I've been on it it was fairly crowded and somewhat slow.

[MalcolmTucker]

Could also be drivers wanted to go slower when they were worried standees would fall, especially during games periods. Now that both those worries were gone...

[flight_from_kamakura]

just a reminder:

City of Vancouver's Draft Rapid Transit Principles for the Broadway Corridor. If you are interested in hearing what other people have said or would like to review and discuss the Draft Principles with City staff, please join us at an open house on Thursday, March 25 from 6 - 9 pm at Mount Pleasant Community Centre, 1 Kingsway (at Main Street). The open house has been structured so you can drop in at any time to view informational material, speak with City staff, and provide any additional comments.

[deasine]

From what I know from the UBC Planning department, they are really trying to push for SkyTrain, though they did not exactly say this. They've even mentioned about NIMBYs in the west side and how they are going to try to work hard to sway them over.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Vonny

To be sure, you could have achieved the same result with queue jumper and traffic metering if necessary at choke point, and as pointed by HumnaTransit those choke point are rather an incredible opportunity to promote transit use, than an impediment (see Lion Bridge and George Massey)

Roads construction are primarily for car usage, and because it is in competition with transit, they don't help it at all. Instead one could say that they tend to promote more sprawling making transit service less efficient



that is certainly a good thing , and Golden Ears is how the thing should be done (market priced bridge)

Also, note Lezard, this Golden Ears bridge is the single most important Translink investment: near to $1Billion, order of magnitude more than the Translink share in the Canada line, and it is this investment alone mostly which is limiting the Translink capacity to borrow money for new project
(no matter people say it will pay for itself, banks will don't lend to you if you are above a certain debt/revenue ratio...): have you noticed how this bridge is not in Vancouver?



Road infrastructure in Lower Mainland is not aged, it is even pretty young by common standard. so it is not in need to be replaced: (may be you are messing up with maintenance?)

all capital spending on road infrastructure are not justified by replacing aging structure, just by increasing road capacity, for good or bad reason is another story.

Poco is a major regional industrial hub and a national shipping hub, across the river is the CP intermodal yard that is used for most regional truck to train and vice versa transfers on to the CP line. The CP intermodal yard is surrounded by ALR land and all lots available around it have been developed. The Pitt River bridge and the Coast Meridian overpass are incredibly important for the area and more importantly the region and its economic competitiveness. Transit is not a solution for the problems these two projects solve or for the area.

Ok back on topic.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by deasine

From what I know from the UBC Planning department, they are really trying to push for SkyTrain, though they did not exactly say this. They've even mentioned about NIMBYs in the west side and how they are going to try to work hard to sway them over.

Simple solution. Bore a tunnel under Nimby land. Then don't build any stations in Nimby land.

If they don't want it great. We'll just go right under them and not worry about providing any service to them.

[Yume-sama]

But, what if the tunnel machine creates vibrations and knocks over the people in Point Grey's Picasso's?

And you thought a hipster clothing shop that nobody goes to got a lot in compensation!

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Could also be drivers wanted to go slower when they were worried standees would fall, especially during games periods. Now that both those worries were gone...

I don't think so... but I could be wrong. My information comes from a TRAMS member. He's one of the drivers ( of the old Trams ).

I rode on it when it was full and when it was half-full. It did seem like the driver was trying hard to keep it under 30kp/h.

[CLC]

Originally Posted by Sir.Humphrey.Appleby

Could also be drivers wanted to go slower when they were worried standees would fall, especially during games periods. Now that both those worries were gone...

To prevent standees from "fall", I guess all kinds of public transit have to go under 30 km/h all the time?

On a side note, as smooth as Canada Line is, I did witness at least two Asian woman lost balance just next to me, in one case she had to "grab" my arm for 10 seconds before she could hold onto something else.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by CLC

To prevent standees from "fall", I guess all kinds of public transit have to go under 30 km/h all the time?

On a side note, as smooth as Canada Line is, I did witness at least two Asian woman lost balance just next to me, in one case she had to "grab" my arm for 10 seconds before she could hold onto something else.

I find the new trolley buses to be the worst.. or more specifically the drivers who push the pedal to the floor every time they leave a stop. Really not necessary. More annoying than anything.

[flight_from_kamakura]

^ don't get me started on the #20. sometimes when i just see the number 20 in everyday life, i break out into a cold sweat, start hyperventilating, etc.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by flight_from_kamakura

^ don't get me started on the #20. sometimes when i just see the number 20 in everyday life, i break out into a cold sweat, start hyperventilating, etc.

Riding the #20 bus once down Commercial Drive is an experience.
Riding it twice is a drag.
Riding it three times is a royal headache.
Riding it more than three times is a life-scarring trauma.

[BCPhil]

Commercial/Victoria would be a much better corridor for a Streetcar than Broadway. It would probably be perfect. You could have a Flexity go by every 5 minutes and they would probably all be full.